Alternate Parties!
MilesBeyond
Member Posts: 324
Now that people have played through the game innumerable times, I thought it might be fun to start suggesting some unique new combinations people can try to make their next playthrough something a bit different.
I'll start:
It's worth noting beforehand that it's preferable to install a mod that gives Chapter 5 NPCs earlier locations.
Good v2.0
PC (preferably a Wizard)
Kivan
Ajantis
Coran
Alora
Yeslick
All the good-aligned NPCs who didn't make the cut! In between Kivan, Coran and Alora we're talking some serious ranged damage here (especially if you've kitted out Kivan as an Archer!). Yeslick is kind of a pain because IIRC most NPC location mods don't move him so he's not an option until later in the game. Branwen makes a decent substitution, though. The real weakness here is that your two front-liners, Yeslick and Ajantis, have both got pitiful DEX for Warriors, and you've only got one pair of Gauntlets to fix that.
Diminutive Domination
PC (of a short race)
Tiax
Quayle
Yeslick
Kagain
Alora/Montaron
They're short and they hate each other. What more is there to ask for? Tiax/Quayle and Yeslick/Kagain are both couples in need of some serious relationship counselling. This is not a devastatingly powerful party, but it's a lot of fun. The logical choice for a PC here, I think, is a CE Halfling Berserker with GM in Slings.
Powergamer's Worst Nightmare
PC (preferably a Wizard Slayer or Beastmaster. Or a triple-class)
Quayle
Faldorn
Eldoth
Garrick
Skie
With no frontline fighters, very little capacity for high-level spells, and mediocre stats all around, this party does not have a lot of weight to it. Skie is actually probably the best thief in the game after Imoen, but she's in there because Eldoth is. That being said, this party certainly has some strong points (Faldorn, while a terrible fighter and a victim of the general mediocrity of Druids in BG1, has got nice WIS, and Garrick's not a bad archer), and beating the game in SCS on Impossible would make for good bragging rights.
Any ideas from you guys?
I tried to leave out the new NPCs because I'm assuming that everyone's already using them all the time.
I'll start:
It's worth noting beforehand that it's preferable to install a mod that gives Chapter 5 NPCs earlier locations.
Good v2.0
PC (preferably a Wizard)
Kivan
Ajantis
Coran
Alora
Yeslick
All the good-aligned NPCs who didn't make the cut! In between Kivan, Coran and Alora we're talking some serious ranged damage here (especially if you've kitted out Kivan as an Archer!). Yeslick is kind of a pain because IIRC most NPC location mods don't move him so he's not an option until later in the game. Branwen makes a decent substitution, though. The real weakness here is that your two front-liners, Yeslick and Ajantis, have both got pitiful DEX for Warriors, and you've only got one pair of Gauntlets to fix that.
Diminutive Domination
PC (of a short race)
Tiax
Quayle
Yeslick
Kagain
Alora/Montaron
They're short and they hate each other. What more is there to ask for? Tiax/Quayle and Yeslick/Kagain are both couples in need of some serious relationship counselling. This is not a devastatingly powerful party, but it's a lot of fun. The logical choice for a PC here, I think, is a CE Halfling Berserker with GM in Slings.
Powergamer's Worst Nightmare
PC (preferably a Wizard Slayer or Beastmaster. Or a triple-class)
Quayle
Faldorn
Eldoth
Garrick
Skie
With no frontline fighters, very little capacity for high-level spells, and mediocre stats all around, this party does not have a lot of weight to it. Skie is actually probably the best thief in the game after Imoen, but she's in there because Eldoth is. That being said, this party certainly has some strong points (Faldorn, while a terrible fighter and a victim of the general mediocrity of Druids in BG1, has got nice WIS, and Garrick's not a bad archer), and beating the game in SCS on Impossible would make for good bragging rights.
Any ideas from you guys?
I tried to leave out the new NPCs because I'm assuming that everyone's already using them all the time.
0
Comments
Eldoth, Garrick, Skie, Shar-Teel & Xan
- This has the highest number of banters, so it is very entertaining. Be careful that Eldoth and Shar-Teel will try to kill each other.
Jaheira, Faldorn, Khalid, Kivan & Tiax
- This party is hilarious because everyone but Tiax are nature worshiping hippies, while he wants to conquer nature.
Alora, Edwin, Montaron, Xzar & Yeslick/Kagain
- Alora and Edwin have a close bound, while the same is for Montaron and Xzar. The last slot is taken by Yeslick or Kagain depending on if you want more positive or negative influences on your party.
Coran with either Shar-Teel, Safana, Skie, Branwen, Viconia, Dynaheir or Jaheira.
- Coran is a player and will try to hit on the following women. So having a mostly female party with him in it is pretty funny.
I never use Imoen because she has no interactions with any of the other NPCs.
My God is better than your God. No raise/reload challenge.
True Nightmare mode:
PC: Pure Thief
Eldoth
Garrick
Skie
Alora
Rasaad
No Cleric.
No true mage.
Rasaad.
You're a pure thief. Competing with four other archer-type characters for bows and ammo.
viconia
xan
coran
kivan
secret npc
the secret NPC didn't have any banters with the rest, so maybe replace him with garrick or safana. basically viconia just abuses the other male elves with promises that under any other circumstances they would be worms beneath her heel. even xan gets pretty pissed with her
Write down the names of all 29 NPCs (in abbreviated form if that makes it less of a chore) on slips of paper and draw five out of a hat.
And for the PC, last winter there was a thread in which someone shared about a system to randomly generate a character. Do that for your PC.* Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the link, but perhaps someone else here did and can post it.
I mean, you could keep doing that also until you hit upon something that looks like fun and/or a presents challenge that you think you'd enjoy.
* Edit: Found the random character generator system thread: here.
Plus there's the fact that once you get to a high enough level for some serious Mage and Cleric spells, the Fighter part of the equation becomes dead weight. This is even more true with an F/M/T, where the Thief is also just slowing you down.
Don't get me wrong, triple-classes are fun to play, they're great jacks-of-all-trades and pretty useful as support-casters and have some slim potential by combining fighter skills with mage and cleric buff spells, but I can't even begin to imagine them as a power-gaming thing. Even for a solo playthrough. Really the only advantage I can see is a Fighter who can cast Mirror Image and DUHM on himself. Which is cool, but not amazing (especially since DUHM becomes available to good/neutral-aligned Fighters, anyway).
Most of that applies to Cleric/Mages as well, just not to the same extent. Quayle as a back-up caster to support Viconia and Edwin is okay. Quayle as your primary caster is completely useless.
AFAIK the two biggest powergaming classes are Kensai->Mages and Sorcerors. Some might say Wild Mages as well.
Themed party setup
"Arcane casters only" (and struggle with healing done mainly via Larolchs Minor Drain and Vampiric Touch)
"3 Casters only" (be a druid, get a cleric(Vicky), mage (Edwin) and try to survive with summons)
"All thief stealth run" (what healing? bad Thac0, but a lot of fun with traps and backstabs)
"Swiss Army Kife Protagonist" one particular run, I've tried with a T/M/C protagonist, and 3 single-class warriors/rangers (your protagonist will feel like a token utility teammate) ...now try the same with a bard...
"Musical group on the road" - CHARNAME a blade + Garrick and Eldoth...
"Power of nature" - druids all the way!
"Magic? What magic?" - only fighters/rangers and thieves allowed. One token multiclassed/dualclassed cleric allowed. Paladins possible...
I kinda meant that it would have been awesome if they'd saved him for that encounter instead of killing him off.
"Plus there's the fact that once you get to a high enough level for some serious Mage and Cleric spells, the Fighter part of the equation becomes dead weight. This is even more true with an F/M/T, where the Thief is also just slowing you down."
Are you playing your FMT like a primary spellcaster, or are you playing them like a Fighter who happens to have pretty much every spell necessary to turn themselves into a WMD?
Thieves have the best HLA list in the game, and FMTs get the most HLAs, by the time you're looking at game-breaking magery, you're looking at gamebreaking Time Traps.
Most of that applies to Cleric/Mages as well, just not to the same extent. Quayle as a back-up caster to support Viconia and Edwin is okay. Quayle as your primary caster is completely useless.
AFAIK the two biggest powergaming classes are Kensai->Mages and Sorcerors. Some might say Wild Mages as well.
Kensai > Mages are pretty mediocre in BG1, and not hugely superior to the much more consistent F/M.
Mages in general being overpowered is a staple of D&D, but again, there's not that much in it for BG:EE.
However:
Fighter/Mage/Thief - Ends BG:EE as 6/6/7. The idea that they level significantly slower than other classes is not a dealbreaker so long as you know the game enough to optimise your experience gain.
A Fighter/Thief ends at 7/8.
A Fighter/Mage ends at 7/7.
A Mage/Thief ends at 7/8.
So versus a fighter mix, the FMT loses out on 1 THAC0 and 1/2 an attack.
Versus a mage mix, the FMT loses out on 1 level 2 and 1 level 4 spell.
Versus a thief mix, the FMT loses out on 25 skill points.
Versus the F/T, the FMT gains a Familiar (which pretty much ameliorates the HP loss of the level, along with giving a free spell, pickpocketter, or whatever, Wand use, and of course, spells. Buff spells and crowd control spells don't need caster levels, and sleep is better than Fighters, whilst Knock means they never need to put a point into Open Lock. Mirror Image and Blur also work wonders in or out of melee. Losing 1/2 an attack versus being able to use MMM or a wand of fire isn't really the end of the world, nor is the tiny dip in skillpoints.
Versus the F/M, the FMT, depending on your particular party requirements, gains snares (awesome), pretty much permanent invisibility from which to guide summons, and an x3 backstab. Losing a level 4 spell is a pain, but honestly at level 4, there aren't that many layers on Stoneskin for it to be a dealbreaker. F/M is probably the most "powerful" multiclass, but the FMT definitely has its uses outside of that.
Vs. the M/T, the FMT gains helmets, and with them, crit immunity, half an attack, extra points of damage per hit, and spreads that proficiency across multiple attack forms, giving them at very least viable TWF + ranged weapon.
Fighter/Mage/Cleric isn't quite as popular as the FMT is, but it's by no means nightmarishly weak, it's got every buff, it's got multiple attacks per round, and on top of the awesome crowd control spells that make Mages of any type awesome, it's got Sanctuary (the absolute best invisibility spell ever), Command (the absolute gamebreaker of BG:1) and Animate Dead. Coupled with obscene wisdom scores you have a seriously potent class mix. Summon Spam plus untargettable scout is still definitely superior to most varieties of pure thief.
The advantage of multiclassing in 2e has always been, that you sacrifice a small amount of ability in one class to gain the almost full amount of ability in another class. Triple classes are no exception, and there's really not much that a pure fighter or thief can offer that realistically compensates for a small THAC0 or skill point sacrifice in favour of spellcasting.
As for Quayle, the Mage/Cleric doesn't even have the limitation of being a three-way split, he really is a badass, just like Aerie is come BG2. Command plus Sleep plus Emotion on their own are formidable, the fact he has pretty much every single spell in BG1 is just awesome. The only character that picks up level 5 spells is the pure mage or the pure *druid*. Quayle sacrifices a level 5 mage spell for pretty much full cleric casting, and the ability to slap on a shield for some bonus survivability. It's not because they're weak that people avoid them, it's because they're annoying.
minor sequencer with doom and glitterdust is an excellent way to soften someone up for status effects effects or use him as a tank. stoneskin + mirror image + haste + DUHM + holy power = fighter/mage
The same is true of Thieves, though how long that "black hole of XP" is seems to depend on the player. Some proclaim Thief levels useless starting at around 7 or 8, others will give it until 12 or 13.
The point is, for most if not all of SoA, most of the experience gained by your F/M/T is going towards something that will not provide any significant benefits.
This is also why dual-classing absolutely dominates: An F->M will have almost the same combat capabilities of an F/M/T, but with substantially better casting abilities.
Okay, that's fair, but even if you're soloing that means the FMT is going to take a looooooong time to come into its own. Also it makes the build a little questionable: An F/M/T is never going to be able to use the Mage HLAs (except for the extra spells), so what advantage have they got over an F/T at this point? I mean basically the appeal here is combining Time Traps, Assassination and Greater Whirlwind to do an absurd amount of damage, right? So where does the Mage third come into play? Project Image cheese?
I don't understand why you're making these points because no powergamer would use an F/T, F/M or M/T. Any powergamer who's looking for that combination is going to dual-class. In fact the most common (and effective) powergaming strategy is "Create a party of six human fighters, then have them dual-class into whatever you actually want them to be after [however many] levels." An F->M, T->M or F->T is going to become significantly more powerful than their multi-class counterparts, even assuming you don't kit them out (which you probably will).
I'll concede that triple-classes aren't Wizard-Slayer bad, but I still don't see how they're particularly good for power-gaming. I'm not going to get into the conversation over whether M/Cs are any good or not as I've had it before and it just went on and on and on, but suffice it to say that I don't find it that compelling. Especially Aerie.
I'll cut Quayle some slack, though. The Specialist mage thing does end up making a big difference. Of course, one has to question whether one extra mage spell per level is worth the lack of extra cleric spells due to his pitiful stats (10 WIS! Whooooo!).
See, in BG1 I actually think that the M/C has the potential to be pretty rocking, and the I/C even more so. But you'd want someone other than Quayle doing it.
EDIT: I guess my issue with the M/C is this: It's a class that specializes in having a wide variety of low-level spells. The problem is, low-level spells tend to have a very limited window in which they're useful. This is partially true in BG1, where Sleep becomes pretty ineffective fairly quickly but spells like Command, Horror, etc remain decent. However, it is very true in BG2 where rapidly climbing saving throws and resistances make many spells obsolete very quickly. I find that unless you want to spend every fight spamming Dooms and Greater Malisons, a few high-level spells will always be preferable over a larger array of low-level spells.
Meanwhile the Fighter/Mage/Thief is backstabbing with a staff of striking from Invisibility for a pretty-well guaranteed hit. Okay, that's fair, but even if you're soloing that means the FMT is going to take a looooooong time to come into its own. Also it makes the build a little questionable: An F/M/T is never going to be able to use the Mage HLAs (except for the extra spells), so what advantage have they got over an F/T at this point? I mean basically the appeal here is combining Time Traps, Assassination and Greater Whirlwind to do an absurd amount of damage, right? So where does the Mage third come into play? Project Image cheese?
For that little combo? Improved Haste works out easier than GWW, the fact that the Fighter portion is already granting 3-5 attacks makes GWW something you do when you're not assassinating, giving you more tricks per rest.
I don't feel the need to go into the wide range of other spells that give serious utility and firepower, but there's more to life than operating during a timestop.
A Kensai -> Mage will not be significantly more powerful than a gnome F/I, a Kensai -> Thief will pay heavily in HLAs for the privilege of grand-mastery, and a Thief -> Mage instead of a T/I gets all of one more level 9 spell and loses out on x5 backstabbing, basically free TS, Invisibility and Knocks, and Time Traps to save spots for other level 9 spells. And that's before accounting for the six extra HLAs T/I's get over T>Ms.
I'm not sure what you think Powergaming is, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
Regardless, this is drifting far off topic. To bring this all back on track, and keep it there, the worst party for BG1 is probably....
PC Monk
Rasaad
Safana
Alora
Eldoth
Skie
Outside of rest abuse snares and backstabbing, you have a single Bard spellcaster, no cleric, and two monks. One is Rasaad.
Can anyone make worse?