@Bercon - I don't think it is a limitation of the Engine. Admittedly it is a limitation of the way the code was implemented, but I would imagine it 'Can' be done within the confines of the engine. Then again, I could be wrong.
I only speak for myself in that yes it is a PITA, but a relatively minor one. I am always pausing the game in combat so that I can get my bearings. So to have to do it in this instance really isn't that big a deal "To me". Clearly others think differently, and that is ok as well. Still, I'd rather them work on the bigger issues and then move to BG2:EE rather than work on this.
@subtledoctor I'm not really that into IE modding, but I believe IWD2 engine was forked from what BG uses somewhere between BG2 and ToB or even earlier. IWD2 was released later than ToB was. They simply didn't have enough time to implement the weapon switching to ToB. Absolutely nothing in the game suggest that you shouldn't be able to switch between two swords and a bow for example. You can already do it with two handed sword and bow.
Technically speaking, IWD2 uses a different rule set AND sometimes very very different file structures (you can compare CRE file structures on IESDP). Compare version 1 for BG and BG II with version 2.2 for IWD2: that's what the game uses for characters and where they could store information about weapon sets. Another possibilité would be the GAM file structure. There is a huge lot of differences in the CRE structure and although the GAM file structure for IWD2 is not described, it is different too, and the one for BG or BG II doesn't have anything about weapon sets. Hence they'd have to change lots of thing in the BG II engine and make the save games completely incompatible.
In my opinion, you're probably not going to see anything like that implemented in BG2EE, unless Beamdog don't mind breaking compatibility with game editors, modding tools and with all existing mods, too.
I fail to see how changing the way one switches weapons nerfs anything. It's an interface issue, with no actual impact on combat. You can currently pause the game and switch around weapons to your heart's content. Being able to switch combinations like in IWD2 would be a convenience, nothing more.
I'm actually not terribly worried about it, as I said above, I orient characters towards either melee or missile and don't switch them around except in emergencies (like someone closes with my archer). But it sounds like others here would like the option, and it doesn't hurt the rest of us in any way, at all.
@Isaya, thanks for clarifying that. It might indeed be too large change to implement weapon sets or something along those lines. However, you could implement this by removing the restriction of not having off hand equipped with two-handed-weapons and instead simply disable the off hand slot from all evaluations when you do have two-handed primary weapon. That way the change would remain strictly within the game engine logic and wouldn't alter save game formats. Of course this kinds of "hacks" have a high chance of introducing new bugs which might be reason enough to bear with the current limitation.
This is slightly (or maybe a lot) tangential, but it bothers my sense of immersive realism about how easy it is to swap certain weapon sets around in most if not all all rpg's. Let's take bow plus sword and shield. How are you imagining carrying all these things? Your quiver has to go either on one side or your back, and you can have a blade scabbard on the other. Where is your shield? Can you perform archery with a heavy shield strapped to your forearm? I don't think so.
I can imagine firing the bow until an enemy closes, then throwing the bow down on the ground and quickly drawing your blade. But even if you had entrenched your position before combat and placed a shield on the ground in front of you, how are you going to have time to pick it up and strap it on?
I also have trouble imagining how it could be possible to handle a two-handed sword with a bow. If there is any such thing as a scabbard for a two-handed blade, I would like to be linked to it so I can examine the design. The thing is supposed to be almost five feet long, which approaches the full height of many people. How in the world would you scabbard and then draw it? Back scabbards make absolutely no sense to me. If you extend your right hand all the way straight above your head, you do not have enough length to get that thing out, if it's behind your back. And even if you could, you're liable to chop your own head off while bringing its monstrous weight around and into position.
I suppose you could have a spear or halberd and put it down on the ground to do archery, but from where did you produce your bow? A shortbow is almost four feet long in the stave. A longbow approaches six feet long.
As for maces, flails, and hammers, I don't see how it's possible to scabbard them *at all*. I think you had to carry them in your hands, and then set them down somewhere when you were done fighting. I can imagine placing the haft into a scabbard with the head facing up, sort of like with a tool belt, but then, how are you supposed to draw it if you get attacked?
I suppose it all just takes a whole lot of suspension of disbelief, but the way games like to *pretend* you could actually handle all these weapons at once, *while in combat*, really strains mine sometimes.
I think the closest to believability I ever experienced in a game was the vanilla BG method, where trying to access your inventory during combat would unpause the game. I would love to have an option to turn that back on.
You're over thinking a lot of it. Many weapons would have loops or straps for hanging off a belt. A back scabbard may not be completely enclosed and allow the weapon to swing forward as its drawn. I have no idea how some of it works, but I do know Carolingian heavy infantry used short bow, medium shield and hand axe. Longbowmen typically did not carry shields; but was that a matter of logistics or economics? Of course many armies had support troops providing change of weapons and spares. A lone adventurer would become his own assistant and pack animal (I've seen some awesome miniatures with a wide assortment of gear hanging off every direction!). PNP games I've played often take a more detailed accounting of such things. But bottom line is, it's fantasy. You can role play your gear as carefully, or as liberally as you want.
Thanks, @atcDave, you're helping me. I didn't think about those leather loops at the ends of blunt weapon hafts - those are often seen in the art. So, would one have hooks around one's belt, then? I guess that would work, at least for hafted weapons.
I also didn't consider a scabbard with a slot in the side. I just wonder how the weapon would stay in it securely when not being used.
The only back mounting that makes sense to me, though, is the quiver. It would be easy to reach over your shoulder and pull an arrow. The rest of the idea of back-held weapons still doesn't make sense to me, though. Maybe a shortsword or dagger would be possible, but how would you put it back after you'd drawn it? And I still see a very real danger of cutting your own ear off when attempting to draw weapon from your back.
As for just the *carrying* of everything, I don't have a problem with the idea of very strong, athletic adventurers carrying an awful lot of stuff in a backpack. It's just that that totally precludes carrying anything else back there, and also completely cuts off access to anything in that backpack during an unexpected attack.
I still like the original vanilla BG system the best - having to plan for being attacked by putting what you would need in hand, and in quickslots, added to my sense of immersion and fun while playing vanilla BG1.
@belgaraathmth - it simply takes practice, which presumably anyone doing it will have trained with. It is like shaving the sites off of a pistol in the old west. Gun fighters did it but it required a lot of skill and practice not to lose aim. But if you lived that way, you learned to compensate for the disadvantage.
Spyder hits on a great point, the character is a skilled professional who knows more about such things than we mere players do. But a couple other thoughts, those weapons that tie to the belt could simply be untied quickly when needed. Reattaching later may require more time. I imagine a back scabbard having a full tip, back, sides, and slot at the top; but an open face. So once the weapon is pulled clear of the tip, it would swing out back as its pulled free at the top. I guess you could hurt someone standing right behind! But I think it could work. It might even work with side packs, or a well designed backpack/harness designed for exactly such a use. And for me that's enough. I can imagine it working, so I don't worry about the exact practicality of it.
In regards to BG OP implementation of dual-wielding: I generally agree. It's a bit silly to see someone with a katana in one hand and a flail in the other. Mechanically speaking, it seems much more reasonable for someone to be using a bigger, heavier weap in their "main" hand, and a smaller, quicker weap in their "off" hand.
However, it's a computer game, not PnP. Tasks that require you to navigate between multiple menus during a battle make combat less fun. I'm for streamlining, where it makes sense to do so. It would be nice if the game made it less of a pain to do what the current system already allows you to do (ie, switching instantly between dual wielding and bows).
I'm less concerned with switching to/from dual wielding and more annoyed by switching from two-handed weapon/bow to sword and shield. Sometimes my Paladin wants to carve things up with a two-handed sword, sometimes he wants that extra AC for tanking. I fail to see how eliminating the inventory screen rigmarole to accomplish that is cheesy.
Give S&S a shield bash once a round with a chance to stun the opponent.
I actually thought of this today and checked to see if anyone else mentioned it. This should definitely be considered by the team, as S&S proficiency appears the weakest of the combat styles.
I am afraid once a round would be kind of OP. Maybe once every other round there is a shield bash, in which some damage could be determined with a STR-modifier for the 1st slot, and an additional chance to stun for the second slot.
... but because ONE freakin' fantasy character did it with 2 scimitars, and the devs thought he was just so 733+, they designed a whole stupid game mechanic to glorify it, and leave us to argue about in in web forums.
We are all Drizzt now.
Didn't notice this until now. Um... Wasn't Drizzt that started it all off. I'm thinking that a certain albino dual wielding Black Bastard Swords was where it began. Or am I showing my age?
@childofbhaal599, we can all disagree about what is or isn't cheesy... the point is, aspects of the game were designed with other game aspects in mind. Slings are inferior to bows, but you can keep a shield equipped, which can be very valuable. Dual-wielding is extremely powerful in melee, but you can't equip a ranged weapon. Single-weapon style and two-hand weapon style are inferior to dual-wielding or using a shield, but they are very flexible and convenient in switching from melee to ranged weapons.
You want the power of dual-wielding but also the flexibility and convenience of single-weapon style... that disrupts those trade-offs. Thus, cheesy (not incredibly so; but certainly a little bit). Without something else to offset that unfortunate side-effect, I don't like the proposal.
@TJ_Hooker that is very true, and a very good point. There are like 10 threads about this already and it's probably not a good idea to rehash them all. Long story short, I favor IWD2-style weapon switching IF accompanied by something like a ~6-12 second penalty to movement, thac0 and AC when it is used; AND throw in BG1-style time-passes-in-the-inventory-screen so quickslots mean something once again.
That doesn't make any sense...There is no benefit from them to allow the action to be done, as it is already doable in the first place, the only thing being argued is the convenience of it...You CAN dual wield AND have the flexibility of a single weapon, you just have to go into your inventory and switch the weapons, which is entirely possible and intentional. There is literally no argument that can be made that supports any logic for the denial of such a feature...If you think a regular game mechanic is cheesy, then don't use it.
You think the game developers actually sat there and said "Well, they can do it, but it's going to be SO unconventional and tedious, they will have to think about it..." come on...Because instead of implementing an actual downside, they decided to have inconvenience of the user be the crutch. /sarcasm
Sorry for commenting in this really old post, but right now im replaying the game with the EET (because i wasn't aware that this mod exist) mod and i have this same question and i really want to know if there's a solution after all this time?
Also i thought in way to do it but i don't know if can crash the game later
What if i literally change bows as one hand weapon with DLTCEP tool?
Thanks for your time
(I see that there's a iwd in eet mod, but i don't find if is ready or not or where i can download it)
Please ignore the last post, i have already find out, seconds later, that in the last version you can have a 2 hand weapo and 2 weapons at the same time, sorry my last time i play the game was so long that i don't know all the things that change which is really awesome for coming back to the game
Comments
I only speak for myself in that yes it is a PITA, but a relatively minor one. I am always pausing the game in combat so that I can get my bearings. So to have to do it in this instance really isn't that big a deal "To me". Clearly others think differently, and that is ok as well. Still, I'd rather them work on the bigger issues and then move to BG2:EE rather than work on this.
In my opinion, you're probably not going to see anything like that implemented in BG2EE, unless Beamdog don't mind breaking compatibility with game editors, modding tools and with all existing mods, too.
I'm actually not terribly worried about it, as I said above, I orient characters towards either melee or missile and don't switch them around except in emergencies (like someone closes with my archer). But it sounds like others here would like the option, and it doesn't hurt the rest of us in any way, at all.
I can imagine firing the bow until an enemy closes, then throwing the bow down on the ground and quickly drawing your blade. But even if you had entrenched your position before combat and placed a shield on the ground in front of you, how are you going to have time to pick it up and strap it on?
I also have trouble imagining how it could be possible to handle a two-handed sword with a bow. If there is any such thing as a scabbard for a two-handed blade, I would like to be linked to it so I can examine the design. The thing is supposed to be almost five feet long, which approaches the full height of many people. How in the world would you scabbard and then draw it? Back scabbards make absolutely no sense to me. If you extend your right hand all the way straight above your head, you do not have enough length to get that thing out, if it's behind your back. And even if you could, you're liable to chop your own head off while bringing its monstrous weight around and into position.
I suppose you could have a spear or halberd and put it down on the ground to do archery, but from where did you produce your bow? A shortbow is almost four feet long in the stave. A longbow approaches six feet long.
As for maces, flails, and hammers, I don't see how it's possible to scabbard them *at all*. I think you had to carry them in your hands, and then set them down somewhere when you were done fighting. I can imagine placing the haft into a scabbard with the head facing up, sort of like with a tool belt, but then, how are you supposed to draw it if you get attacked?
I suppose it all just takes a whole lot of suspension of disbelief, but the way games like to *pretend* you could actually handle all these weapons at once, *while in combat*, really strains mine sometimes.
I think the closest to believability I ever experienced in a game was the vanilla BG method, where trying to access your inventory during combat would unpause the game. I would love to have an option to turn that back on.
I have no idea how some of it works, but I do know Carolingian heavy infantry used short bow, medium shield and hand axe. Longbowmen typically did not carry shields; but was that a matter of logistics or economics? Of course many armies had support troops providing change of weapons and spares. A lone adventurer would become his own assistant and pack animal (I've seen some awesome miniatures with a wide assortment of gear hanging off every direction!). PNP games I've played often take a more detailed accounting of such things.
But bottom line is, it's fantasy. You can role play your gear as carefully, or as liberally as you want.
I also didn't consider a scabbard with a slot in the side. I just wonder how the weapon would stay in it securely when not being used.
The only back mounting that makes sense to me, though, is the quiver. It would be easy to reach over your shoulder and pull an arrow. The rest of the idea of back-held weapons still doesn't make sense to me, though. Maybe a shortsword or dagger would be possible, but how would you put it back after you'd drawn it? And I still see a very real danger of cutting your own ear off when attempting to draw weapon from your back.
As for just the *carrying* of everything, I don't have a problem with the idea of very strong, athletic adventurers carrying an awful lot of stuff in a backpack. It's just that that totally precludes carrying anything else back there, and also completely cuts off access to anything in that backpack during an unexpected attack.
I still like the original vanilla BG system the best - having to plan for being attacked by putting what you would need in hand, and in quickslots, added to my sense of immersion and fun while playing vanilla BG1.
But a couple other thoughts, those weapons that tie to the belt could simply be untied quickly when needed. Reattaching later may require more time. I imagine a back scabbard having a full tip, back, sides, and slot at the top; but an open face. So once the weapon is pulled clear of the tip, it would swing out back as its pulled free at the top. I guess you could hurt someone standing right behind! But I think it could work. It might even work with side packs, or a well designed backpack/harness designed for exactly such a use. And for me that's enough. I can imagine it working, so I don't worry about the exact practicality of it.
In regards to BG OP implementation of dual-wielding: I generally agree. It's a bit silly to see someone with a katana in one hand and a flail in the other. Mechanically speaking, it seems much more reasonable for someone to be using a bigger, heavier weap in their "main" hand, and a smaller, quicker weap in their "off" hand.
However, it's a computer game, not PnP. Tasks that require you to navigate between multiple menus during a battle make combat less fun. I'm for streamlining, where it makes sense to do so. It would be nice if the game made it less of a pain to do what the current system already allows you to do (ie, switching instantly between dual wielding and bows).
I agree completely and would love it if they implemented your suggestions. Not holding my breath, mind you ...
Really it just amounts to differences in how people want to imagine their fantasy experience. No harm in differences.
I am afraid once a round would be kind of OP. Maybe once every other round there is a shield bash, in which some damage could be determined with a STR-modifier for the 1st slot, and an additional chance to stun for the second slot.
You think the game developers actually sat there and said "Well, they can do it, but it's going to be SO unconventional and tedious, they will have to think about it..." come on...Because instead of implementing an actual downside, they decided to have inconvenience of the user be the crutch. /sarcasm
Also i thought in way to do it but i don't know if can crash the game later
What if i literally change bows as one hand weapon with DLTCEP tool?
Thanks for your time
(I see that there's a iwd in eet mod, but i don't find if is ready or not or where i can download it)