What value do you think a mod to randomize most NPC and magic item locations would have?

franco

I am curious to know from any on the forum, Would you enjoy a mod which would randomly determine the locations of most of the NPCs that could join the party (except those absolutely essential to the story line like
Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid...). Also, most of the special magic items that most players metagame (because we know where to find them) would now be distributed more randomly.

If you asked me it would have great replay value, and it would increase the feeling of adventure and wonder each time out. Who will meet (if anybody) you on the way to the FAI in the first chapter? What kind of weapon will the bounty hunter in the Prism encounter carry this time?

Would it make any sense to suggest this game to the modders?

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CamDawg

SCS and BG1 NPC both have components to move the NPCs to earlier locations.

franco

@Samus. Perhaps the mod could randomly exchange the positions of most the NPCs before the game starts. So you might find the NPCs you mention near Beregost or Nashkel or the Cloakwood sometime.

Wanderon

Samus said:

I would be interested to see something that could modify the location of the last 4 joinable NPCs in the journey i.e. Alora, Quayle, Skie, Tiax. They are largely forgotten otherwise.

I think there is a feature for this in the SCS mod - it's not random it's set locations and I think it includes Coran Yeslick Eldoth and Faldorn as well.

As to randomizing basicly all the NPCs and major items I'm not sure I would like that - BG is a huge area to be searching for companions and items and depending on how it was done might make it very difficult to gather the party you want and/or find the best items to fit your character & party.

franco

@Wanderon. You indicate that it might make it very difficult to gather the party you want. If you really want a specific party and specific items then this mod wouldn't be for you at all and you wouldn't use it. It would only be useful for a game where you go out into the world from Candlekeep not knowing what to expect or where. I personally would get some excitement out of that.

Wanderon

franco said:

@Wanderon. You indicate that it might make it very difficult to gather the party you want. If you really want a specific party and specific items then this mod wouldn't be for you at all and you wouldn't use it. It would only be useful for a game where you go out into the world from Candlekeep not knowing what to expect or where. I personally would get some excitement out of that.

I understand the concept - for me at least the problems come becuase I already know what NPCs and weapons are available so all the mod is going to change is where they might be found -

I suspect quite a bit of thought went into the placing of most of the better weapons originally and randomizing their location may make discovering them at a time when they will still be useful to you or your party less likely.

Considering the issues with utilizing some of the late game NPCs now I suspect randomizing all or almost all the NPCs may have the same effect and simply lead you to take the ones that are not randomized rather than make it easier to build interesting yet viable parties.

mjs

i'd like it, that'd be great. i'd be difficult to use with SCS, where the right party composition and items decide the battle

BUT

how would this work for enemies wielding weapons. a large part of greywolf's difficulty is Varscona, where would that go or is it only for chests etc

franco

@Wanderon. I understand what you mean, and the game you wish to play is truly the classic Baldur's Gate and thank goodness we have such a gem. But after going through it with several parties, there are (perhaps just a few) like me who would want to play it differently sometime (at least until a real new world like BG3 gets to us) to freshen the world and increase the uncertainty. I'd welcome the challenge of trying to make it with a not quite viable party. To me, if death comes sooner than expected it's part of the excitement of the game. Reroll and try your mixture of luck and skills again.

But I realize that I might very well be in a small minority that would like to play this type of mod. At any rate, I have really loved playing Baldur's Gate all these years, and will probably keep getting drawn back to it, especially when BG3 arrives.

franco

mjs said:

i'd like it, that'd be great. i'd be difficult to use with SCS, where the right party composition and items decide the battle

BUT

how would this work for enemies wielding weapons. a large part of greywolf's difficulty is Varscona, where would that go or is it only for chests etc

I think you're right @msj. It would be very difficult to use with SCS. It would be a different type of game with its own charm where the challenge would be in not knowing what to expect. Although I would hope that the enemies would have an improved call for help.

You're right that greywolf's difficulty is Varscona. In this concept, I would imagine there could be a bell curve statistical determination. Does Vascona remain a +2 longsword (likely) or another +2 weapon (less likely). On very rare occasions (maybe 2% of time) does it become a +3 weapon or just +1
weapon with an extra kicker. I think that is how this concept would translate.

BJMJD

It could be in interesting but I would like to keep some logic on where you can find a NPC, for example: Xzar and Montaron should be found between FAI and Nashkel because they are travelling to Nashkel.
Minsc Should be around Nashkel, near of the gnoll stronghold because he is looking for Dynaheir...

About the stuff I would be more interesting by randomise they location like that, Vascona can be handle by greywolf or it can take place in Nashkel's field at the place of the ankheg armor or at FAI where the ring of wizardry can be found.

Modify the stuff's power is less appeal for me.

mlnevese

The problem with randomizing item locations is that it's very easy to break quest by changing an important item's location. Jus look at the Item Randomizer mod's Readme file to see how many times they had to release a fix to it for this reason alone.

franco

I agree @BJMJD. Xzar and Montaron could be found between FAI and Nashkel, but not necessarily between Candlekeep and FAI. Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira need to be where they always are. The location of items and stuff could be randomized as you said. That's the concept. The ability of the party to survive would be more in the balance.

franco

@mlnevese. Could you expand on your comment a little. I'm interested in what your getting at. I didn't even know there was an item randomizer mod. I'm learning a lot here. Maybe really important items that would break quest would be identified as such and left in their original location.

KidCarnival

The "who will you meet on the way to FAI" would already not work. Xzar and Montaron are there for a reason. Sure, they could be anywhere between where they are now and Nashkel, story-wise, but they are also there to balance the alignments. Imoen, Khalid and Jaheira are neccessary where they are - they are: thief (potential mage dual), fighter, healer for good parties. Xzar and Montaron are: mage (potential dual cleric), fighter, thief for evil parties. Between the 2 or 3 NPCs charname first meets, all basics for a balanced party are covered.
I wouldn't find it exciting to get Safana and Alora instead of Xzar and Monty. If all NPCs had a random chance to be where they are, you'd be stuck with 2 - 3 thieves half the time.

Moving the non-plot essential NPCs from Cloakwood and Baldur's Gate to other locations would be very welcome, of course. Those with quests in the mid/late game areas could simply work the same as Eldoth and start the timer once you reach the relevant map (i.e. meet Coran in a forest near Nashkel - makes sense, he hunts for bounties and there's Oublek as "employer" - trigger his wyvern quest when entering first Cloakwood map).

Randomizing items - the +1-something you find in various caves, i.e. the halberd. Not randomize their location, but the item. Some weapons are rare for no reason, i.e. spears or flails/morning stars. Especially one-handed weapons often exist only once and it would be nice to have a chance to find a second one for dual wielders. Or if you have Monty and Kagain, who are both proficient in axes and you want both to use an axe for some reason; or Monty and Garrick (and Imoen?; short swords); or any combination of semi-rare weapon prof on charname and an NPC.

mlnevese

@franco

You can download it here:

http://www.gibberlings3.net/item_rand/

I'm not sure if it works in the EE yet, it certainly is not distributed as compatible.

If you're interested, download the mod and read the Readme. Although the Authors are very careful there were versions that fixed keys being randomized, for instance.

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the_spyder

I agree that the opportunity to get Tiax and the rest earlier would be interesting, but... I would want the locations to actually make sense. Finding Edwin, Minsc, Jahiera, Khalid, Imoen, Branwen, Xan, Coran, Xzar and Montaron, Kivan and Korgan where they are make a good deal of sense as they all have valid reasons for being in those locations. Ok, Shar-Teel and Viconia could be more random, but not very much. If the random location changer could put people in places where they don't have a reason to be, that might be a bit of an immersion breaker "to me".

KidCarnival

Like Eldoth standing randomly in Cloakwood... It just makes no sense at all. He should be in a tavern or some other place where it is likely to find... other people, ANY people, for his plan. The bridge to the city would make more sense, if Nashkel and Beregost are already too crowded with NPCs.

Faldorn could appear in Peldvale after encountering the druids there.
Kivan with his active timer would also be better in Peldvale or closer to the Bandit Camp.
Coran, any forest near Nashkel would make as much sense as Cloakwood. Or the temple, where he obviously was at some point to hear about the wyvern bounty (no commoner mentions this).
Quayle could be anywhere... just on the other side of the bridge would work. Or carnival, due to BG2.
Alora in Gullykin, with her quest triggering once you get access to the city.
Tiax... no idea, there's no reason he is near the Flaming Fist building; anywhere else is just as good.
Just Skie is a bit difficult...

franco

@KidCarnival. Good points. Perhaps the mod programming would list all the NPCs with a list of all the places where each one sensibly can be found so as not to significantly break story lines. Then the randomizer would select which of these locations they are actually in for this particular game.

KidCarnival

That would be interesting. Coran could be at the temple, or anywhere between there and Cloakwood - on the route he'd travel if he was trying to complete his quest. Same could be done for Minsc and Edwin (assuming everyone using a mod like this would know how to get to the Stronghold on their own) - usual spot in Nashkel, any of the maps between Nashkel and Stronghold. Kivan could travel in the direction of the Bandit Camp; Eldoth go from tavern to tavern in Beregost and Nashkel and so on.

the_spyder

If you are going that far, why not make it a random chance when visiting any of those places that the NPC would be there. Hence representing actual movement of the people in the world around you? Just a thought.

franco

@the-spyder. That's an interesting idea. The programming would have a list of NPCs that might sensisibly be found at each location, with a probability function. The randomizer would then determine if any one of them is actually there when you pass through. It seems that it would be a more difficult program though than just predetermining when the game starts where each NPC would be. It would also tend to cause the player to keep sweeping through some areas where metagaming tells him that NPCs will eventually show up.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Perhaps major exploits such as Nashkel Mines, Bassilus, Bandit Camp and Cloakwood Mine create a limited-time window in which various NPCs hear of Charname's Party and are actively seeking to hook-up with them. Another wrinkle might use those windows as opportunities to receive 'hot tips' from random Commoners or Bartenders about NPCs Charname should check-out. The latter might also be a very good, unessential but interesting format for boosting the utility of the Dump-stat -Charisma.