Does Wizard slayer suck as much as it looks like?

Fubby

No maigc items aside from weapons and armour, for funky anti-mage passive.

Ekital

Pretty much, he's okay when his dispel works on ranged weapons otherwise he is just useless. An inquisitor can do a much better job killing mages than a wizard slayer.

Lemernis

Supposedly (and I do not doubt this, just have never confirmed) the 10% increase of spell failure upon each successive hit by a WS is basically worthless. Because by the time you hit the mage successfully enough times to matter, the mage is dead.

I'm not sure whether a WS becomes somewhat more effective if SCS is installed. Mages then have much better spell protections. So it may very well make a difference then.

For SoA/ToB when using the Greater Whirlwind HLA, a dual-wielding Wizard Slayer with max APR might also also induce spell failure before the target gets killed. But I've never tried a WS in BG2. Others can answer whether that is so.

Mokona

Wizardslayer is a bad joke class.

Southpaw

I've seen some people put a good use into WS in ToB. But that essentially meant to dual him to a Thief at 13th level and combine WS's magical resistance with some items to get near 100% magic resist.

ajwz

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Fubby

Shouldnt it be buffed then? I mean, it looks interesting, but its just not strong enough.

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Schneidend

Lemernis said:

Supposedly (and I do not doubt this, just have never confirmed) the 10% increase of spell failure upon each successive hit by a WS is basically worthless. Because by the time you hit the mage successfully enough times to matter, the mage is dead.

I think the spell failure is applied as long as the to-hit roll is successful. You don't actually have to deal damage. Therefore, the Wizard Slayer can be useful against enemy casters who have their defenses up like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.

Fubby

Schneidend said:

Lemernis said:

Supposedly (and I do not doubt this, just have never confirmed) the 10% increase of spell failure upon each successive hit by a WS is basically worthless. Because by the time you hit the mage successfully enough times to matter, the mage is dead.

I think the spell failure is applied as long as the to-hit roll is successful. You don't actually have to deal damage. Therefore, the Wizard Slayer can be useful against enemy casters who have their defenses up like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.

I would think it would be good if it worked on ranged weapons, so it could be used with the Crossbow of Speed, to attack much faster.

Lemernis

Schneidend said:

Lemernis said:

Supposedly (and I do not doubt this, just have never confirmed) the 10% increase of spell failure upon each successive hit by a WS is basically worthless. Because by the time you hit the mage successfully enough times to matter, the mage is dead.

I think the spell failure is applied as long as the to-hit roll is successful. You don't actually have to deal damage. Therefore, the Wizard Slayer can be useful against enemy casters who have their defenses up like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.

Yeah, that's my understanding too. But if I'm reading what others have written correctly, a Fighter (pure class, WS, Berserker, Kensai, Dwarven Defender--any fighter) will typically kill the mage with those successful hits in the same amount of time that the spell failure would become meaningful. Which, if true, speaks to how poorly protected mages are from martial attacks in vanilla BG2, I guess.

Alexisisinneed

Fubby said:

No maigc items aside from weapons and armour, for funky anti-mage passive.

On my third play through I'm using a wizard slayer. He works just as good as any other fighter. Even though he can't use braces, rings, and non healing potions.

His ten percent chance of spell failure works really well. He single handed killed the mage at the end of cloakwood mines.

DreadKhan

A fighter/thief can do that easily, unless you have mods.

kamuizin

Southpaw said:

I've seen some people put a good use into WS in ToB. But that essentially meant to dual him to a Thief at 13th level and combine WS's magical resistance with some items to get near 100% magic resist.

I believe the HLR "Use any item" from the Thiefs remove the item restriction for WS, but wait the end of BG2 to equip your character seems shallow and void of fun to me.

WS class surelly should change, but seeing as BG EE doesn't fix a shit of the old game... i see this hardly happening.

The Mag. Res. of an wizard slayer should attempt to resist to any form of magic, be it friendly or not. The 10% chance of failure should be an activate hability not an permanent one. The restrictions to gear should be limited to other reasons, a WS should not be able to active items (charges or limited dayly usage) but shoud be able to use common items.

Mathmick

Fubby said:

No maigc items aside from weapons and armour, for funky anti-mage passive.

Obviously you just can't handle the funky nature of the class.

PugPug

I read that the spell failure doesn't affect the end bosses of BG2 and TOB,

Irenicus or Melissan

.

Maybe it's useful against dragons?

Quartz

As the sole PC, Wizard Slayers sucks. However I enjoy running a Wizard Slayer in the Black Pits, or a multiplayer game, or any other way of playing the game where there is more than one Player Character.

Necomancer

I remember wanting to play a wizard slayer named Gronk. He was a half-orc, min-maxed greatly, and had the lowest possible intelligence. He was from a loving family consisting of a orc who has given up the old ways and a human who fell in love with said orc. They were horribly slain by an evil wizard who was just passing by. Gronk grew up alone, in the woods, with only one goal. "Smash all evil wizards!"

Sadly, I found out wizard slayer kinda sucks so I scrapped the idea and just made him a normal fighter who hates magic.

Dantos4

Lemernis said:

Schneidend said:

Lemernis said:

Supposedly (and I do not doubt this, just have never confirmed) the 10% increase of spell failure upon each successive hit by a WS is basically worthless. Because by the time you hit the mage successfully enough times to matter, the mage is dead.

I think the spell failure is applied as long as the to-hit roll is successful. You don't actually have to deal damage. Therefore, the Wizard Slayer can be useful against enemy casters who have their defenses up like Stoneskin and Mirror Image.

Yeah, that's my understanding too. But if I'm reading what others have written correctly, a Fighter (pure class, WS, Berserker, Kensai, Dwarven Defender--any fighter) will typically kill the mage with those successful hits in the same amount of time that the spell failure would become meaningful. Which, if true, speaks to how poorly protected mages are from martial attacks in vanilla BG2, I guess.

I disagree, there are plenty of times in BG2 where you face mages with spell protections vs. physical hits (mirror image is even used in the first dungeon). From your wording it sounds like you mainly play some form of hardcore AI mod? Do not be so quick to talk down the vanilla AI. It's certainly not the best in the world, but it's not awful either. It was definitely enough to give many of us a good run for our money when we first played it.

Schneidend

Lemernis said:

Yeah, that's my understanding too. But if I'm reading what others have written correctly, a Fighter (pure class, WS, Berserker, Kensai, Dwarven Defender--any fighter) will typically kill the mage with those successful hits in the same amount of time that the spell failure would become meaningful. Which, if true, speaks to how poorly protected mages are from martial attacks in vanilla BG2, I guess.

Right, but those hits aren't actually dealing any damage, so the Wizard Slayer is potentially preventing himself from getting feared or held while he whacks away images and layers of stoneskin, while the vanilla warrior is just peeling away defense and otherwise allowing the hostile mage to cast with impunity.

Kaltzor

As a side note to the topic, Wizard Slayers can also use magic boots... I'm guessing they forgot to flag them unuseable by Wizard Slayers though in BG1 the only boots that would give them an actual advantage are the boots of speed.

Lord_Tansheron

In the case of Stoneskin, keep in mind that attacks with elemental weapons (i.e. fire damage) will penetrate Stoneskin, potentially interrupting the caster even though the actual physical damage of the swing didn't connect.

Either way, though - if you are fighting mages powerful enough to be a threat, and they put up their defenses, you will want to dispel them ASAP anyway. After that, you clobber them into the ground regardless of spell failure or not. Ignoring SS/MI in hopes that your WS will make them fail is not a very promising tactic. Not to mention that the WS fail only penetrates things like SS/MI and *not* things that actually prevent them from being hit, such as Protection from Magical Weapons (which is rampant in modded BG2).

There is a lot of discussion threads already about the detriments of WS; suffice it to say they are not good, and to my knowledge no argument so far has been brought up to convince anyone otherwise. And no, flavor or RP value is not an argument - flavor and RP can justify ANYTHING.

Fubby

If its true they dont work vs the boss of SoA and ToB, then they really have nothing going for them. I was thinking "Maybe they would suck, but then easily defeat the bosses?". Aparently WS cant have anything in their favor ):

Lemernis

See, I'm wondering if it's actually at higher levels that the WS pays off. Because once you get HLAs and attack with Greater Whirlwind--mind you, often using normal weapons (because enemy mages are buffed with Protection from Magical Weapons)--can't you actually get some spell failure action happening with the 10% spell failure upon hit? Plus the damage from the weapon, of course.

smeagolheart

@Lemernis as @Lord_Tansheron says, the spell failure thing applies against mi and stoneskin but not against protection against magic weapons and the like.

bill_zagoudis

no.

wizard slayer is the ultimate caster killer, a single turn of attacks(even with thrown weapons)
with greater whirlwind attack means 100% spell failure,this gets reapplied with each hit and the WZ will eventually reach 100% MR

if you are talking about early game,there aren't any misc magic items of note anyways,only the gauntlets that give +1 to hit +2 to damage

spell protections do no matter at all,all you need is a +5 weapon and a non magic weapon and it's over for casters,this applies to even liches and Irenicus quite effective vs ToB final boss too

and if you play him without a shield a kitten will die,he NEEDS shield or his AC will be something like a kensai's
also you MUST use Whirlwind Attack to ensure that the enemies will never have a chance to cast a spell

he's definately worth of 1/6 slots of your party,now if there are better choices for solo that doesn't matter,any single class(except sorc) is not the best choice for solo,as you'll probably need traps and some casting combined

i must copy paste that response...

ps:he also disables some misc abilities like beholder rays,vampire charms etc

karnor00

bill_zagoudis said:

spell protections do no matter at all,all you need is a +5 weapon and a non magic weapon and it's over for casters,this applies to even liches and Irenicus quite effective vs ToB final boss too

You wish. The biggest issue is that a lot of enemy mages in BG2 are liches and are therefore immune to non-magical weapons. Once they cast Protection from Magical Weapons, they are now immune to all weapon damage.

If the enemy mage isn't immune to all weapon damage then they are going to get hit which automatically interrupts their casting. Plus a reasonably equipped melee class is going to be doing 15+ damage/hit which will kill them before spell casting failure becomes much of an issue. The only exception is if they have stoneskin up.

However many magical weapons add elemental damage which goes through stoneskin. Which again will prevent spellcasting just through the elemental damage caused.

So WIzard Slayers are useful against mages who aren't immune to non-magical weapons plus have cast Protection from Magical Weapons, Stoneskin and Immunity:Abjuration (to prevent an easy breach/dispel). That's a pretty tiny niche of usefulness compared to the disadvantages of the class.

And even then, a couple of fighters with non-magical weapons and whirlwind attacks (or just plain improved haste) can break through stoneskin in less than a round anyway and then beat the mage to a pulp with their non-magic weapons.

ZanathKariashi

His ability is not, and never should apply to ranged weapons. In every incarnation, even PnP, it requires a melee weapon, in melee combat. (though yes...thrown axes and daggers are considered melee, even when thrown, at the moment and will apply it....)

That said, Bioware GROSSLY underpowered that kit (and over-buffed the berserker beyond all reason...but that's a whole separate issue) from what it's supposed to do. No magical items at ALL, but every 3 levels the effective enhancement bonus of their equipped weapons/armor/shield increases by 1 to a max of +5 each (only applies to what they can hit (not damage) or all saves (yes...+10 to all saves at 15+ if they have body armor and shield equipped) (not AC), respectively), 50% chance per melee hit of dispelling magic equal to their class level, any target hit in melee must save or suffer a spell failure chance equal to their magic resistance for 5 rounds (doesn't stack, but can be extended). Magic resistance starts at 22% and increase 2% per level (1% above 20), but applies to both hostile and beneficial spells. Healing and damaging magical effects are only 50% effective (before saves). And at level 10 or above, once per day they can create an anti-magic aura for 1 round per 2/levels, that extends out 10 feet +1/level and moves with them that completely prevents all magic from working, negates all spells currently in effect (if the caster is equal or lower level then the WS, otherwise they get a save), and renders non-artifact items non-magical as long as they remain within the aura.


Any class can solo just fine (except the shapeshifter..it's do-able...but not in anyway fun or enjoyable unless you're a masochist), some just do it easier then others.

The wizard slayer solo isn't really hard...it's just boring since you're limited to literally just beating the enemy to death (without the huge numbers and frequent 1 hit chunking a Kensai has), with no magic items to use to spice things up.

reedmilfam

Lots of long answers. The short answer is YES.

Anduin

@Samus said:

Fubby said:

Shouldnt it be buffed then? I mean, it looks interesting, but its just not strong enough.

The strength of a Halfling wizard slayer is not measured by the length of their sword arm, nor the degree of magic resistance they may possess, but rather the size of their heart and the courage within!

...But until they implement the courage attack system your doomed. (And less said about the size of the heart attack the better...)