Assassin/Mage or Assassin/Fighter

EntropyXII

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I tried to have a look about the forums and couldn't find anything definitive.

I just managed to roll a 94 in character creation (I don't do ctrl +8) with my Assassin new game. I was wondering if anybody had tried dueling an Assassin to a Fighter or Mage before?

I tried going Assassin/Fighter some years ago due to a number of enemies being immune to backstab late ToB but struggled to make up the fighter levels in order to get my assassin back. I also regretted missing out on a number of HLA's.

Never tried an Assassin/Mage though and it looks to me it has a lot of roleplaying potential - but I assume it might be even more difficult to make those levels back.

I enjoy the idea of grandmastery in daggers and single weapon style and the bonus's to thac0 but if I remember correctly the assassin does lose the 'stealthiness' which it is known for, essential taking away from RP. This time I figured Assassin/Mage might be a better option but I just can't decide. I think I also played my Assassin wrong last time... I didn't bother with a number of the traps which I think was a huge mistake.

Anyhow, what do you think? Assassin/Fighter, Assassin/Mage or Pure Assassin?

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Eudaemonium

Apparently Melf's Minute Meteors works with poison weapon, which could be kinda broken. Or at least funny. Assassin/Mage sounds interesting, at least.

EntropyXII

@Samus How do you get past the enemies being immune to backstab late game - If pure assassin or course? This was a long time ago for me, but I remember it being increasingly annoying.

@Eudaemonium Didn't know that, sounds interesting to say the least!

On an RP basis I thought it would make more sense to duel to Mage but that's just me. I do love a bit of roleplay and I kind of remember feeling like an Artemis Entreri rip off the last I played and dueled to fighter.

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Southpaw

Assassins do not dual well as their thief skiil progression is slow, their superior backstab (7x) hits at very high levels and if dualled, the poison skill is weaker at low levels.
Assasins can be awesome as a single class.
Otherwise, you can pick them up for the poison and +1 to hit and +1 to damage bonus and some thief skills, but you'd be better with a fighter=>thief dualclass.

I assume assassin=>mage could be interesting for RP purposes (and try poison+melf's minute meteors), but otherwise popular T/M dualclass is to dual a swashbuckler @ lvl 10 to mage in BG2.



BTW- I fought non-backstabbable enemies, with traps, poison and a good bow in ToB. There's more to a thief than just backstab.

EntropyXII

@Southpaw my issue with using ranged weapons was how I couldn't hurt anything by the end of ToB. I thoroughly enjoyed using my returning throwing dagger of flame (forgot them name) but as it was +3 it was rendered useless. Of course there is the cloak of stars which gives +5 darts... but I wasn't a fan of dart using.

Are melf's minute meteors +5 regarding in what they can hit? I guess the sound of my assassin wielding the black blade of disaster and only using necromancy spells could be a good source of RP..

Southpaw

@EntropyXII - long years since I played my favourite Assassin in ToB, I am afraid I don't remember. Maybe I used the darts. Or just any other weapon. UseAnyItem helps too.

That idea of a Necromancer-assassin sounds very good. I might try it out.

EntropyXII

@Southpaw necro/assassin would require the use of shadowkeeper. I'm not a fan of 'bending the rules' so to speak but the roleplay potential could be incredible.

Or I could just go 'pure mage' and restrict myself to necro spells.

Argh! I'm genuinely stuck. BG is running in the background until I can decide. Shall I just give myself maximum intelligence and then decide later when it is necessary? I rolled a 94 so I have points to throw about really but stretched between higher str or higher int.

Also, I didn't know this but do higher intelligence and wisdom values give additional speech options during game?

Wanderon

No speech options for int or wis - just lore bonus.

OzzyBotkins

94 is a nice roll, I would play assassin for BG1 to see if you like it and duel at the beginning of BG2

Eudaemonium

EntropyXII said:

@Southpaw necro/assassin would require the use of shadowkeeper. I'm not a fan of 'bending the rules' so to speak but the roleplay potential could be incredible.

Or I could just go 'pure mage' and restrict myself to necro spells.

Argh! I'm genuinely stuck. BG is running in the background until I can decide. Shall I just give myself maximum intelligence and then decide later when it is necessary? I rolled a 94 so I have points to throw about really but stretched between higher str or higher int.

Also, I didn't know this but do higher intelligence and wisdom values give additional speech options during game?

Just to note, Necro/Assassin is impossible even with Shadowkeeper, as you can only have one kit at a time. You could 'Keeper a Mage/Assassin or a Fighter/Assassin (which was my last Charname), but not a Necro/Assassin or Kensai/Assassin, for example.

Give yourself high Int and just RP yourself as a genius tactician. With a 94 you can run: 18/18/16/17/10/15.

Jagged

I think an assassin->mage is a fine dual. I would just focus on two thieving skills (find traps and open locks) then dual at level 10. Those two skills would be just about maxed. You would lose some thaco and ac compared to a swash but you would gain them sweet poisoned melf meteors.

EntropyXII

@Eudaemonium Ah ha! I see my poor knowledge of modding and Shadowkeeper has been exposed. Back to the cave Entro quickly! We will live to fight another day, muahaha! -skulks away-

I was thinking of something along the lines of: 16/18/15/18/11/16 (beginning) and then 20/20/16/19/14/17 (ToB). If I go mage I would likely decrease Str and put the point into con or charisma. I try to avoid powergaming - it may not seem it with the amount of effort I put into creating a character, but I think more along the lines of how an Assassin would be, rather than with what works.

High charisma, dexterity, intelligence and all that. I just can't work out how an assassin would be that big and bulky with 18str (imagine Sarevok's size?) but if I duel to fighter then it might make sense.

@Jagged wouldn't that gimp me in the early levels? I mean move silently and hide in shadows is a must for any assassin right?

Southpaw

@EntropyXII - under the Assassin/Necro I meant exactly what you've said afterwards. A->Mage, but try to restrict yourself to necromantic spells and poisons. Not powergamey, but RP play.

BTW - in your case, I'd just go as @Eudaemonium said - give yourself good fighting values and high intelligence. You can dual later if you wish. Or not... You'll see...

I am also not really a big fan of Shadowkeeper. I sometimes use it to change some annoying things, like colors, portraits for NPCs, add myself a katana in Candlekeep to avoid cheesing/killing whole Candlekeep, but not for cheating.

EntropyXII

@Southpaw: Maybe a mage is the way to go then. I just had a good long think about it. Evil fighters include Sarevok, Korgan and probably Dorn by ToB. Dueling to fighter might prove to be pointless.

Assassin/Mage then or Pure Assassin. Shall I keep my Str a low number? 14 (beginning) will end up as 18 by ToB but I won't really need it will I? No Str bonuses on Backstab if I remember correctly and without combat won't be necessary. Could I even go lower or would I be gimping myself until I duel to mage?

Southpaw

EntropyXII said:

@Jagged wouldn't that gimp me in the early levels? I mean move silently and hide in shadows is a must for any assassin right?

Yeeeaaaaa...actually...recently I tried to build an assassin in BG1 to primarily get trap setting and some pickpocket. Careful preparation of traps and poisoned darts/bow/throwing knives work (un)surprisingly well.

After maxing out Set Traps and some points to Pickpocket here and there, I started to put points into stealth. It won't be usable till start of BG2EE, but that "will prove only a slight delay" ;-) .

Southpaw

@EntropyXII - power-gamer wise, I'd do exactly as @Eudaemonium said - max Strength+Dexterity, decent Constitution and high Intelligence.

If I remember correctly, my old Assasin (not-dualled, but prepared to dual like you are) had around
17/18/15/16/10/11 at levell 1. But I always try to keep my characters real-life believable. (not min-maxed cheesy superstupid-superhumans)

EntropyXII

@Southpaw - is strength necessary for my assassin if I dual mage? I'm guessing i'll primarily be using missile weapons and back stabs with daggers but I'm not very sure on the bonuses which will be applied in regards to str and backstab. I was under the impression it didn't work but i'm not sure.

Southpaw

@EntropyXII - then...no. In this case, I'd rather invest into Wisdom. (To be able to use Wish)

EntropyXII

@Southpaw Good shout. How noticeable is the thac0 strength bonus with assassins/thieves? Does anybody know?

Southpaw

Well. I don't have the manual right here, but I remember that melee THAC0 bonus starts at 16 strength.

Southpaw

Oh right. How noticeable... Well. We don't have the Fighter THAC0 table, so any +1 is a godsend.

AHF

EntropyXII said:

@Southpaw Good shout. How noticeable is the thac0 strength bonus with assassins/thieves? Does anybody know?

The jump from 18 to 19 is significant. 16 to 17 to 18 is incremental but nothing big.

DreadKhan

Eudaemonium said:

EntropyXII said:

@Southpaw necro/assassin would require the use of shadowkeeper. I'm not a fan of 'bending the rules' so to speak but the roleplay potential could be incredible.

Or I could just go 'pure mage' and restrict myself to necro spells.

Argh! I'm genuinely stuck. BG is running in the background until I can decide. Shall I just give myself maximum intelligence and then decide later when it is necessary? I rolled a 94 so I have points to throw about really but stretched between higher str or higher int.

Also, I didn't know this but do higher intelligence and wisdom values give additional speech options during game?

Just to note, Necro/Assassin is impossible even with Shadowkeeper, as you can only have one kit at a time. You could 'Keeper a Mage/Assassin or a Fighter/Assassin (which was my last Charname), but not a Necro/Assassin or Kensai/Assassin, for example.

Give yourself high Int and just RP yourself as a genius tactician. With a 94 you can run: 18/18/16/17/10/15.

Well, I seem to remember that if you add a kit, then take it away, most effects did not disappear. Note, assassin is very easy to "make", just poison ability for his level, backstabbing cap if applicable, and +1 to hit and damage.

EntropyXII

@DreadKhan urgh, that's too complicated. I think I might just go legit. Like I said, never been a fan of Gatekeeper/Shadowkeeper.

DreadKhan

Well, it can kill the fun if you make a juggernautsaurus Rex, yeah, it will stink. Like having a level 6 Xzar with 12 hp. Right, totally reasonable to have rolled 2 1s and 3 2s.

EntropyXII

@DreadKhan - I'm not trying to judge those who like to use it. I just always feel guilty whenever I do, but that's probably just me though.

DreadKhan

@entropyxii nothing wrong with you playing the way you like.

My issue is generally that if it isn't at least making the game more cool or fun, just easier, well, you done goofed. The game can be played by most any build with success.

Chow

I have no problem using Shadowkeeper, seeing how I've won the game just fine legitimately, and use it to make things more interesting by modifying characters to something more fun. I often change a fighter/thief multiclass into a fighter/assassin one, for instance - although changing the paperdoll to a thief one never seems to stick.

Southpaw

@Chow - I believe the paperdoll changes everytime you put an armor on. Or at least used to in vanilla/tutu BG. I haven't tested avatar morphing mods/scripts in BGEE.

I used to use Shadowkeeper to correct small mistakes/portraits/colors for flavour. Never to cheat.
Oh yes...and to change the alignment of my Ranger Stalker main to Lawful Evil ]:->