@Schneidend - Agreed, but wasn't the entire point of samurai fighting to end the fight with the original blow? The 'quick draw' move, right out of the scabbard? That would be accuracy and finesse. I don't know to much about samurai fighting styles but i figured the general consensus was not to be bashing each others swords... I could be wrong though.
You never parried with the blade of a sword. Blocking with your weapon at all was a bad idea, but better your sword broke than your neck hewn.
We should also seperate kinds of combat. There's a definite difference between an all out melee and combat between individuals or small groups.
There's also the misconception that the full plate armor of medival knights was encumbering and unwieldly. It certainly is today, but the fighting men of ages past lived and trained in it constantly and if it was as restrictive as people commonly believe today it never would have been used.
The more people involved in a combat, the more useful armor became. More People = More Chaotic. No matter how good you are personally, if there's 15,000 people on the field an arrow could always come out of left field, fired from either side, and take you out.
Finesse definitely works best in small engagements where you can keep track of everyone trying to kill you.
I still am not impressed with kungfu/martial arts. I don't have a problem with samurais/ninjas that finesse because they actually have swords/actual weapons. Bruce lee however has this-He is 150 pounds, lightning fast, tiny and is deadly if he punches me in a vital area and only in a vital area. If he hits in the groin, throat your out of the game, but everyone would be out with that so thats not really a strength. The only thing he has is speed.
I would say anyone that has a decent speed and excellent reach can take him down in no time. Ive done research on the guy and he is more of a movie star than a fighter. He was in a fight with another dojo master to prove that chinese people aren't the only ones to take his class. Read his bio there are conflicting stories. A lot of people said he lost and I would believe that as I don't take legends to heart.
I think he's overrated to be honest and martial arts is really just something that is kind of meh. I took muay thai and the only thing it taught me was nothing. I learned more about fighting through my own ideas than with a dojo. I usually carry a box cutter to my job for opening boxes. If someone was to jump me, I'd use that as a gauntlet and it would probably be better off than some fancy spin kick to see coming.
Its all a bunch of bs. The best fighters are the ones that fight dirty and play by almost little to no rules. Even if Martial arts is ok, swords/melee weapons are still better and guns are still better than those so Martial arts is last place.
Ive taken karate 3 years when kid (worst martial art), Muay thai (fairly ok) but am not convinced. The problem is even if it is useful, there are still other avenues that beat it by a long shot. So ok fists/kicks are good, try getting surrounded. At least with melee you can swing or use the reach to your advantage.
The problem with lee's thing is that he is tiny. Like the guy that fought him in the street did, as soon as lee gets into the grapple, he's almost done. You can do all sorts of things to him and because of his size, he can't do much when a savage is tearing his ear off or something else to cripple him. If Tyson was to fight lee with anything goes, he would destroy him once the grapple came. At least Ali had some strength, speed and finesse to him. I don't know, I just don't get it.
Size matters when you fight someone on the same level as you. A tiny skilled person will defeat even much larger opponents who are unskilled. A tiny skilled person will have trouble with a large equally skilled person.
Every part of the body is a vital area if you know what you are doing. Not every part of the body could kill you outright like crushing someone's throat or driving bones into their skull or stopping their heart. But you can seriously mess someone up doing the right thing to the right spot. Doesn't require a weapon.
Weapons are force multipliers. Not everyone is strong and fast enough to run down a gazelle and kill it with their bare hands. So we invented spears and bows and arrows and all sorts of good stuff.
If martial arts weren't valuable, we wouldn't spend so much time and energy teaching our militaries how to do unarmed combat.
There are also different styles focusing on different aspects. Compare something like Krav Maga or Jeet Kune Do to one of the showier martial arts. One roleplaying book I read mentioned "Strip Mall Karate" that was for competitions but not actual fighting.
I know their necessary and I know we need them, but I happen to loathe martial arts. Oh, I like martial arts MOVIES, and things like that, but a lot of people who happen to be in that are abusers of their art.
Size matters when you fight someone on the same level as you. A tiny skilled person will defeat even much larger opponents who are unskilled. A tiny skilled person will have trouble with a large equally skilled person.
Every part of the body is a vital area if you know what you are doing. Not every part of the body could kill you outright like crushing someone's throat or driving bones into their skull or stopping their heart. But you can seriously mess someone up doing the right thing to the right spot. Doesn't require a weapon.
Weapons are force multipliers. Not everyone is strong and fast enough to run down a gazelle and kill it with their bare hands. So we invented spears and bows and arrows and all sorts of good stuff.
If martial arts weren't valuable, we wouldn't spend so much time and energy teaching our militaries how to do unarmed combat.
There are also different styles focusing on different aspects. Compare something like Krav Maga or Jeet Kune Do to one of the showier martial arts. One roleplaying book I read mentioned "Strip Mall Karate" that was for competitions but not actual fighting.
I still don't completely agree with everything you said but one thing I don't understand. That is that military teaches unarmed combat. When is this ever useful. If you lose your gun, run out of ammo, or don't have one and are getting approached by people with them, you might as well be screwed. Going melee in a firefight is nuts.
I still don't completely agree with everything you said but one thing I don't understand. That is that military teaches unarmed combat. When is this ever useful. If you lose your gun, run out of ammo, or don't have one and are getting approached by people with them, you might as well be screwed. Going melee in a firefight is nuts.
I believe that you're supposed to wait for the enemy to close in and see if there are any survivors. Then you jump out, and once you're that close to someone a gun, especially a rifle or other long barreled gun, is far less effective.
First, combat is extremely fluid. And often fought at extremely close ranges like when clearing a city. So you could move from a firefight with half a dozen guys, then two more turn the corner and come in the door while you're reloading. At that point you can attack or stand there like a dope. Read http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi a bit and you'll see how many modern soldiers have been forced into hand to hand combat.
Second, unarmed combat training can be specialized for the role the soldiers are to take and what threats they face. Krav Maga was created for the Israelis to be a brutal, crushing form of combat to deal with the fact that everyone is trying to kill them even when they may not be armed at the moment. The Marine's style started like that but was reworked to emphasize non-lethal takedowns because of their ever growing role as peace keepers.
Hmm.. I had no idea. Thats actually kind of cool. I only figured that you would use unarmed combat in military when running round a corner and you come face to face with an opponent. Thats actually interesting as a number of my friends are in the military. I'll have to ask them about that after reading that. Thanks for the article. I need a good read
One entry I read recently, which underscores my point, was about a guy that used his SAW to mow down most of a squad of insurgents. And his gun went "click" on the last guy. Who had his own SAW. So he did the only reasonable thing, ripped it out of his enemy's hands and beat him to death with his own machinegun.
Hah, that makes me laugh. My friend was an expert in Muay Thai before he joined the marines. Now I know why he did. Very crafty. He's probably loving it knowing him.
@Schneidend - Agreed, but wasn't the entire point of samurai fighting to end the fight with the original blow? The 'quick draw' move, right out of the scabbard? That would be accuracy and finesse. I don't know to much about samurai fighting styles but i figured the general consensus was not to be bashing each others swords... I could be wrong though.
The "iaijutsu" or whatever you like to call it is largely a popular myth. Samurai fought with swords drawn like any other warrior. They weren't constantly sheathing their blades in the heat of battle.
As for this whole debate of strength vs. finesse, the assumption that the strong guy can't swing his weapon quickly or accurately is silly. The stronger you are, the more easily you can wield a heavier weapon. The idea that they're in any way mutually exclusive is another popular myth established by game mechanics and fiction.
This is a silly discussion. I know someone who can lift 120 kg but he has short muscles and thefore he is slow and unlikely to hit exactly the spot he want. I know an other guy that is a finesse fighter and he has long muscles and therefor he is fast. He moves fast and accurate and is nearly unblockable. If he aims right he can crack your skull witht a single blow (it happend).
I think some lords from waterdeep and balder's gate are equaly strong as Sarevok
This is why Sarevok had to poison him instead of fight him. Everything I have read indicate that Duke Elton was a beast of a fighter - and better than Sarevok. If I remember correctly, Mr. Greenwood mentions this himself.
King Azoun IV Obarskyr would kick his ass... anyway there are many powerful fighters in abeir toril... sword coast is just 1% of the whole planet (or was it 3%)....
I think it's less a matter of swordsmanship that Sarevok had him poisoned, but getting away with killing him. Even if Sarevok is more than capable of snapping Eltan in two, it isn't in his best interests to do so himself, since he could be witnessed doing so.
@DKnight: I know that this is taking the thread way off-topic, and it's entirely possible that you're just trolling here, but I'm going to ignore forum etiquette for a moment, because I really need to respond to some of your points.
I think he's overrated to be honest and martial arts is really just something that is kind of meh...
...The best fighters are the ones that fight dirty and play by almost little to no rules.
First off, there's a major contradiction here. You're saying that Bruce Lee is overrated, then you're saying that the best fighters are... someone a lot like Bruce Lee.
There's a quote from Jiddu Krishnamurti that's often attributed to Lee: "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless." Lee's martial arts were constructed around that sentiment -- he didn't subscribe to specific techniques unless he thought they could be useful. His style was a combination of different techniques that he found to be effective -- something that was unheard of, due to the incredibly rigid, inflexible philosophies of mainstream martial arts instructors at that time -- and those techniques included dirty fighting options like biting, eye gouging, and groin shots. Lee's movies may have been flashy, but his actual martial arts expertise was just about being effective.
You might think he only had speed, but he was also incredibly strong, had ridiculous cardio, and trained specifically to hit you where it hurts, however he possibly could. He wasn't superhuman, but he was an effective fighter by any measure.
If Tyson was to fight lee with anything goes, he would destroy him once the grapple came.
You're revealing a limited knowledge of martial arts here. I don't know how much grappling Lee studied, but many martial arts -- famously Brazilian jiu-jitsu, but also karate, krav maga, judo, and others -- teach grappling techniques, and I don't care how strong you are, if you're untrained and end up in a grappling match with a BJJ black belt, you're going to get your limbs broken.
I don't know if you're familiar with the history of the UFC, but that organization was originally founded as a no-rules fighting tournament, not the regulated sport that it is today. And there's a very good reason that Royce Gracie, the son of the man who invented Brazilian jiu-jitsu, won that unregulated tournament three times: BJJ was invented so that a small person could easily disable a bigger one, and the sumo wrestlers, karatekas, savateurs, and simple brawlers who fought in those early events simply couldn't handle it, no matter how strong or dirty they were.
Martial arts gets a bad rap because of McDojos, which is another name for your run-of-the-mill strip mall karate school that teaches kids windmill kicks and board-breaking. But those don't teach real martial arts, any more than prepackaged pancake mix teaches you how to cook. There are real martial arts out there that teach people how to fight, and plenty of martial artists who -- like Bruce Lee -- would easily wipe the floor with someone who fought with strength alone.
I guess Sarevok wanted to control the Flaming Fist mercenary group. Thats why he poisoned Eltan and not fought him. He put his own man to lead them so he could control the city before killing other dukes. They would also have secured his power and position when he'd been the only duke.
@dknight Bruce lee wasn't huge, but 150lbs with less than 5% body fat at his best is actually far more muscle mass than the average 200lb person, to say nothing about conditioning. You might want to look up some physics on how force is calculated btw... Mass matters, but speed it equally important. This is why gargantuan body builders have no business getting into fights, they have trained only for the mass portion, and their punches might push someone over, but will inflict no significant damage.
Erm, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about if you suggest getting Bruce lee in a grapple was a sane strategy... Ever heard of the one inch punch? He'd be using it to break your ribs. And no, not a myth, you can probably find some YouTube vids of it. The Founders of brazilian jujitsu, who were expert grapplers, would not fight lee. Cuz they new they'd get killed.
@entropyxii western duelist style fighters only showed up after armour ceased to be worn. Cutting through chainmail vs puncturing it or bashing the flesh beneath was actually harder than people realize. And those lightweight rapiers, epees and sabres? All after nobody wore armour. Rapiers were originally quite hefty, as heavy at least as the chopping swords being used in their day. They needed a great deal of heft to punch through armour. Iirc, the estoc was a two handed rapier, bizarre as it sounds. In the east, special wedge-like daggers were used as armour pierces, since they had better metal, and were even harder to pierce. Not that a Mongolian composite bow had any trouble heh.
As far as the samurai were concerned, the goal in battle/war was to win without expending energy or risking your lord's property... ie you. Katana were not as suited to parrying as the straight swords used by Europeans, but you could parry with them, you used the side of the blade. Kinda bizarre, but it kept your cutting edge from being dulled, and it avoided the sword having to take a blow on its weakest point, it's edge. Damaged edge = notch effect, meaning the blade will break sooner than later. Engineering is fun.
Iaijutsu isn't really myth, but was not something applicable to battlefield, as one never sheathes a dirty sword... And you don't have time for cleaning in the field. Iai is the same principle used in board/block breaking, and was used during duels. Unlike the quick draw stuff of the Wild West, iai actually saw use.
In regards to sarevok vs Eltan... Level means less in 2nd than it does in 3.x. Stats are huge, and I don't see how Eltan could be running around with min max level stats. He'd be known for is immense strength if he was an 18/00. Also, fighter levels kinda stink after sarevoks level anyways, what is 15 hp gonna do when the guy deals 15 more dps? Especially if the guy also has more cons, and might end up with more hp anywhays. Also, sarevok had better gear, which can't be ignored.
@Schneidend - Agreed, but wasn't the entire point of samurai fighting to end the fight with the original blow? The 'quick draw' move, right out of the scabbard? That would be accuracy and finesse. I don't know to much about samurai fighting styles but i figured the general consensus was not to be bashing each others swords... I could be wrong though.
The "iaijutsu" or whatever you like to call it is largely a popular myth. Samurai fought with swords drawn like any other warrior. They weren't constantly sheathing their blades in the heat of battle.
As for this whole debate of strength vs. finesse, the assumption that the strong guy can't swing his weapon quickly or accurately is silly. The stronger you are, the more easily you can wield a heavier weapon. The idea that they're in any way mutually exclusive is another popular myth established by game mechanics and fiction.
Heavy weapons are only slower if they are too heavy... My rule of thumb is that if you can't easily swing the weapon with one hand, you will be too slow even with two. Foot work can offset this, but footwork is a default for any competent fighter. If you aren't moving, you haven't got a clue. Or you are not interested in fighting.
This is why I liked the str requirements for equipment. Weapons aren't just a matter of proficiency. If you are moving sluggishly, a child with a razor blade could end you as easily as an adult with an axe.
IMO, the issue is also that movies, games etc show people using much heavier weapons than anyone would have been dumb enough to fight with. Nobody relied on a bearded axe for true hand to hand, it was used to break a shield wall. War hammers looked more like a pick or claw hammer than a sledge (nobody was dumb enough to professionally fight with a sledge hammer, this is pure silliness), and a mace or flail had a pretty small head usually. Single handed weapons rarely weighed more than 3 lbs, and two handed wouldn't be vastly heavier, other than specialized ones like the bearded axe or tetsubo.
That's a problem with movies and cinema in general.
Protagonist and heroes get chopped up and sliced quite a bit in movies and the bad guy usually gets killed with a blow that literally tears his head off. In reality you get a nice chop or just the right cut and have fun being permanently maimed or disabled, or better yet have fun bleeding to death in a few minutes.
The big weapons bit is also true. You might look cool swinging that huge axe, but when someone gives you a nice jab or stab and cuts you just right, don't you look dumb.
I know how strong chainmail is - We did a tester thrust a few years back when I was studying for my masters. I couldn't cut it with slashing and thrusting with a short sword, but believe it or not I actually managed it (slightly) with a shorter blade. Less bend, I assume...
well I actually just took a link out of it shameful stuff.
I understand this, but it's not necessarily just chain mail. The basic notion I assume is that dexterity counts for agility and hand/eye co-ordination. With a high level of dexterity, focal points can be struck - usually between armor chinks or unarmored parts of the body, such as behind the legs or underneath the arms. Higher dexterity certainly would make this easier correct?
In regards to Eltan - we actually don't really know what his equipment was. It is never mentioned in BG or the source books. I think we can assume that the equipment he wears in the actual game wouldn't have been canon as I don't think we're ever actually supposed to know what equipment he has. I assume it would be powerful however.
It is not just in levels to which I assume his power, I read quite a bit sometime ago on the Candlekeep Forums about how good he actually is. I tend to hold information I read there as legit when it is written by moderators or FR writers.
That's a problem with movies and cinema in general.
Protagonist and heroes get chopped up and sliced quite a bit in movies and the bad guy usually gets killed with a blow that literally tears his head off. In reality you get a nice chop or just the right cut and have fun being permanently maimed or disabled, or better yet have fun bleeding to death in a few minutes.
The big weapons bit is also true. You might look cool swinging that huge axe, but when someone gives you a nice jab or stab and cuts you just right, don't you look dumb.
Very true... Unarmed movie fights are the most egregious. Even if you're tough as nails, you take 20 solid punches to the face, and you will look like crap. Hence padded gloves in part. The other part is not breaking your hand or wrist.
I am sure some morons with little training tried to use heavier weapons for intimidation, but after the Bronze Age and heroic combat, that was plain stupid!
@entropyxii I have no association with this other khan... Mysterious!
Actually, that's about normal. Even with relatively simple chain (chainmail's quality and strength was mainly a function of how many rings were interlocked... Only 1 is by far the weakest, 3-5 is not getting penetrated readily).
The beauty of chainmail was that you didn't have to leave any part open, even joints were protected from cuts... Though you could still break bones beneath, especially wrists. Hence bracers and gauntlets, which deflect the force of the blow/distribute it over a larger area. Plate isn't always more protective by a long shot though, since it was easier to pierce if a blow could find purchase... Bolts and arrows avoid this problem by concentrating high force in a tiny area. Interesting, the Mongolians used silk to prevent puncture of the skin from arrows. Worked better than armour, and was more feasible in the harsh climates they fought in, from desert to steppe to Kievan Rus territory. Similar in theory to Kevlar, in that silk could stop the force, just prevent puncturing, and thus reduce mortality.
Hand eye coordination with weapons is mostly learned, and I would agree it is somewhat based on dexterity, but there is a reason almost all fighting styles rely on practicing motions... Same principle as tai chi! This is one reason novices are very bad at chopping firewood... They can't hit the same spot twice in a row. You need only average dexterity if you rely on practiced motions, as muscle memory will aide you.
Eltan, Belt and any other settled fighter suffers from spending gold on things other than equipment. He needs a fine house as a duke, remember, and most dress very well. Sarevok was free to expend not only his 'wealth allotment' for his level on ger, he also had massive funds from the Iron Throne. Hence sending various assassins after char name. I would expect Eltan to have gear on par or a bit better than drizzt, which would mean sarevok has him outclassed. Eltan isn't expecting to have to personally fight a high level enemy at this point.
@Schneidend - I really don't understand where you get the notion that Sarevok could snap Elton in two?
If you want to go into hard statistics: Duke Eltan is 5 levels higher than Sarevok.
If you want to go into hard lore: Duke Eltan is one of the greatest swordsmen in the realms.
The key word in that sentence of mine would be "if." It was a hypothetical. No matter how powerful Sarevok might be compared to Eltan, it is not in his best interests to kill him personally even if he were ten times better at swordsmanship. That is what I was attempting to convey.
Though, as Dread Khan points out, Eltan's equipment may be sub-par compared to CHARNAME or Sarevok. You can be the greatest swordsman in the realms, but if you're running on a +1 longsword, you're going to probably run into some issues against Sarevok's Blade of Chaos.
@Schneidend@DreadKhan - I'm still not sure about this. I mean I do see your point, but it is an awful lot of assumptions based on things we do not know. Eltan would not have the 'experience' so to speak, to become level 20 without many an adventure in his youth.
Perhaps you're right in assuming he did not buy any equipment in his later years, but wouldn't it also be correct to assume he would have a number of weapons/armors from his adventuring days?
His +1 longsword and full plate that he wears in game may just be ornamental. As far as I know you're not actually supposed to be able to kill Eltan in game. He is invulnerable if I remember correctly. This leads me to the conclusion that his equipment was only for show and we were never truly meant to know what he actually carries.
That I dont get. If Eltan was this excellent fighter and Sarevok was a man that could rend people in two, why would Sarevok poison him. If it was Artemis Entreri, he would fight him and either die fighting him, or kill him himself. The same goes for drizzt although unlikely as drizzt is good. Sarevok might be one of the strangest fighters to figure out. He's tough as nails but has no problem doing things through guile once in a while. Arent chaotic evil characters supposed to just be mindless crazies?
Comments
We should also seperate kinds of combat. There's a definite difference between an all out melee and combat between individuals or small groups.
There's also the misconception that the full plate armor of medival knights was encumbering and unwieldly. It certainly is today, but the fighting men of ages past lived and trained in it constantly and if it was as restrictive as people commonly believe today it never would have been used.
The more people involved in a combat, the more useful armor became. More People = More Chaotic. No matter how good you are personally, if there's 15,000 people on the field an arrow could always come out of left field, fired from either side, and take you out.
Finesse definitely works best in small engagements where you can keep track of everyone trying to kill you.
I would say anyone that has a decent speed and excellent reach can take him down in no time. Ive done research on the guy and he is more of a movie star than a fighter. He was in a fight with another dojo master to prove that chinese people aren't the only ones to take his class. Read his bio there are conflicting stories. A lot of people said he lost and I would believe that as I don't take legends to heart.
I think he's overrated to be honest and martial arts is really just something that is kind of meh. I took muay thai and the only thing it taught me was nothing. I learned more about fighting through my own ideas than with a dojo. I usually carry a box cutter to my job for opening boxes. If someone was to jump me, I'd use that as a gauntlet and it would probably be better off than some fancy spin kick to see coming.
Its all a bunch of bs. The best fighters are the ones that fight dirty and play by almost little to no rules. Even if Martial arts is ok, swords/melee weapons are still better and guns are still better than those so Martial arts is last place.
Ive taken karate 3 years when kid (worst martial art), Muay thai (fairly ok) but am not convinced. The problem is even if it is useful, there are still other avenues that beat it by a long shot. So ok fists/kicks are good, try getting surrounded. At least with melee you can swing or use the reach to your advantage.
The problem with lee's thing is that he is tiny. Like the guy that fought him in the street did, as soon as lee gets into the grapple, he's almost done. You can do all sorts of things to him and because of his size, he can't do much when a savage is tearing his ear off or something else to cripple him. If Tyson was to fight lee with anything goes, he would destroy him once the grapple came. At least Ali had some strength, speed and finesse to him. I don't know, I just don't get it.
Every part of the body is a vital area if you know what you are doing. Not every part of the body could kill you outright like crushing someone's throat or driving bones into their skull or stopping their heart. But you can seriously mess someone up doing the right thing to the right spot. Doesn't require a weapon.
Weapons are force multipliers. Not everyone is strong and fast enough to run down a gazelle and kill it with their bare hands. So we invented spears and bows and arrows and all sorts of good stuff.
If martial arts weren't valuable, we wouldn't spend so much time and energy teaching our militaries how to do unarmed combat.
There are also different styles focusing on different aspects. Compare something like Krav Maga or Jeet Kune Do to one of the showier martial arts. One roleplaying book I read mentioned "Strip Mall Karate" that was for competitions but not actual fighting.
Second, unarmed combat training can be specialized for the role the soldiers are to take and what threats they face. Krav Maga was created for the Israelis to be a brutal, crushing form of combat to deal with the fact that everyone is trying to kill them even when they may not be armed at the moment. The Marine's style started like that but was reworked to emphasize non-lethal takedowns because of their ever growing role as peace keepers.
One entry I read recently, which underscores my point, was about a guy that used his SAW to mow down most of a squad of insurgents. And his gun went "click" on the last guy. Who had his own SAW. So he did the only reasonable thing, ripped it out of his enemy's hands and beat him to death with his own machinegun.
As for this whole debate of strength vs. finesse, the assumption that the strong guy can't swing his weapon quickly or accurately is silly. The stronger you are, the more easily you can wield a heavier weapon. The idea that they're in any way mutually exclusive is another popular myth established by game mechanics and fiction.
I think some lords from waterdeep and balder's gate are equaly strong as Sarevok
This is why Sarevok had to poison him instead of fight him. Everything I have read indicate that Duke Elton was a beast of a fighter - and better than Sarevok. If I remember correctly, Mr. Greenwood mentions this himself.
I think it's less a matter of swordsmanship that Sarevok had him poisoned, but getting away with killing him. Even if Sarevok is more than capable of snapping Eltan in two, it isn't in his best interests to do so himself, since he could be witnessed doing so.
If you want to go into hard statistics: Duke Eltan is 5 levels higher than Sarevok.
If you want to go into hard lore: Duke Eltan is one of the greatest swordsmen in the realms.
There's a quote from Jiddu Krishnamurti that's often attributed to Lee: "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless." Lee's martial arts were constructed around that sentiment -- he didn't subscribe to specific techniques unless he thought they could be useful. His style was a combination of different techniques that he found to be effective -- something that was unheard of, due to the incredibly rigid, inflexible philosophies of mainstream martial arts instructors at that time -- and those techniques included dirty fighting options like biting, eye gouging, and groin shots. Lee's movies may have been flashy, but his actual martial arts expertise was just about being effective.
You might think he only had speed, but he was also incredibly strong, had ridiculous cardio, and trained specifically to hit you where it hurts, however he possibly could. He wasn't superhuman, but he was an effective fighter by any measure. You're revealing a limited knowledge of martial arts here. I don't know how much grappling Lee studied, but many martial arts -- famously Brazilian jiu-jitsu, but also karate, krav maga, judo, and others -- teach grappling techniques, and I don't care how strong you are, if you're untrained and end up in a grappling match with a BJJ black belt, you're going to get your limbs broken.
I don't know if you're familiar with the history of the UFC, but that organization was originally founded as a no-rules fighting tournament, not the regulated sport that it is today. And there's a very good reason that Royce Gracie, the son of the man who invented Brazilian jiu-jitsu, won that unregulated tournament three times: BJJ was invented so that a small person could easily disable a bigger one, and the sumo wrestlers, karatekas, savateurs, and simple brawlers who fought in those early events simply couldn't handle it, no matter how strong or dirty they were.
Martial arts gets a bad rap because of McDojos, which is another name for your run-of-the-mill strip mall karate school that teaches kids windmill kicks and board-breaking. But those don't teach real martial arts, any more than prepackaged pancake mix teaches you how to cook. There are real martial arts out there that teach people how to fight, and plenty of martial artists who -- like Bruce Lee -- would easily wipe the floor with someone who fought with strength alone.
Erm, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about if you suggest getting Bruce lee in a grapple was a sane strategy... Ever heard of the one inch punch? He'd be using it to break your ribs. And no, not a myth, you can probably find some YouTube vids of it. The Founders of brazilian jujitsu, who were expert grapplers, would not fight lee. Cuz they new they'd get killed.
@entropyxii western duelist style fighters only showed up after armour ceased to be worn. Cutting through chainmail vs puncturing it or bashing the flesh beneath was actually harder than people realize. And those lightweight rapiers, epees and sabres? All after nobody wore armour. Rapiers were originally quite hefty, as heavy at least as the chopping swords being used in their day. They needed a great deal of heft to punch through armour. Iirc, the estoc was a two handed rapier, bizarre as it sounds. In the east, special wedge-like daggers were used as armour pierces, since they had better metal, and were even harder to pierce. Not that a Mongolian composite bow had any trouble heh.
As far as the samurai were concerned, the goal in battle/war was to win without expending energy or risking your lord's property... ie you. Katana were not as suited to parrying as the straight swords used by Europeans, but you could parry with them, you used the side of the blade. Kinda bizarre, but it kept your cutting edge from being dulled, and it avoided the sword having to take a blow on its weakest point, it's edge. Damaged edge = notch effect, meaning the blade will break sooner than later. Engineering is fun.
Iaijutsu isn't really myth, but was not something applicable to battlefield, as one never sheathes a dirty sword... And you don't have time for cleaning in the field. Iai is the same principle used in board/block breaking, and was used during duels. Unlike the quick draw stuff of the Wild West, iai actually saw use.
In regards to sarevok vs Eltan... Level means less in 2nd than it does in 3.x. Stats are huge, and I don't see how Eltan could be running around with min max level stats. He'd be known for is immense strength if he was an 18/00. Also, fighter levels kinda stink after sarevoks level anyways, what is 15 hp gonna do when the guy deals 15 more dps? Especially if the guy also has more cons, and might end up with more hp anywhays. Also, sarevok had better gear, which can't be ignored.
Heavy weapons are only slower if they are too heavy... My rule of thumb is that if you can't easily swing the weapon with one hand, you will be too slow even with two. Foot work can offset this, but footwork is a default for any competent fighter. If you aren't moving, you haven't got a clue. Or you are not interested in fighting.
This is why I liked the str requirements for equipment. Weapons aren't just a matter of proficiency. If you are moving sluggishly, a child with a razor blade could end you as easily as an adult with an axe.
IMO, the issue is also that movies, games etc show people using much heavier weapons than anyone would have been dumb enough to fight with. Nobody relied on a bearded axe for true hand to hand, it was used to break a shield wall. War hammers looked more like a pick or claw hammer than a sledge (nobody was dumb enough to professionally fight with a sledge hammer, this is pure silliness), and a mace or flail had a pretty small head usually. Single handed weapons rarely weighed more than 3 lbs, and two handed wouldn't be vastly heavier, other than specialized ones like the bearded axe or tetsubo.
Protagonist and heroes get chopped up and sliced quite a bit in movies and the bad guy usually gets killed with a blow that literally tears his head off. In reality you get a nice chop or just the right cut and have fun being permanently maimed or disabled, or better yet have fun bleeding to death in a few minutes.
The big weapons bit is also true. You might look cool swinging that huge axe, but when someone gives you a nice jab or stab and cuts you just right, don't you look dumb.
I know how strong chainmail is - We did a tester thrust a few years back when I was studying for my masters. I couldn't cut it with slashing and thrusting with a short sword, but believe it or not I actually managed it (slightly) with a shorter blade. Less bend, I assume...
well I actually just took a link out of it
I understand this, but it's not necessarily just chain mail. The basic notion I assume is that dexterity counts for agility and hand/eye co-ordination. With a high level of dexterity, focal points can be struck - usually between armor chinks or unarmored parts of the body, such as behind the legs or underneath the arms. Higher dexterity certainly would make this easier correct?
In regards to Eltan - we actually don't really know what his equipment was. It is never mentioned in BG or the source books. I think we can assume that the equipment he wears in the actual game wouldn't have been canon as I don't think we're ever actually supposed to know what equipment he has. I assume it would be powerful however.
It is not just in levels to which I assume his power, I read quite a bit sometime ago on the Candlekeep Forums about how good he actually is. I tend to hold information I read there as legit when it is written by moderators or FR writers.
I am sure some morons with little training tried to use heavier weapons for intimidation, but after the Bronze Age and heroic combat, that was plain stupid!
@entropyxii I have no association with this other khan... Mysterious!
Actually, that's about normal. Even with relatively simple chain (chainmail's quality and strength was mainly a function of how many rings were interlocked... Only 1 is by far the weakest, 3-5 is not getting penetrated readily).
The beauty of chainmail was that you didn't have to leave any part open, even joints were protected from cuts... Though you could still break bones beneath, especially wrists. Hence bracers and gauntlets, which deflect the force of the blow/distribute it over a larger area. Plate isn't always more protective by a long shot though, since it was easier to pierce if a blow could find purchase... Bolts and arrows avoid this problem by concentrating high force in a tiny area. Interesting, the Mongolians used silk to prevent puncture of the skin from arrows. Worked better than armour, and was more feasible in the harsh climates they fought in, from desert to steppe to Kievan Rus territory. Similar in theory to Kevlar, in that silk could stop the force, just prevent puncturing, and thus reduce mortality.
Hand eye coordination with weapons is mostly learned, and I would agree it is somewhat based on dexterity, but there is a reason almost all fighting styles rely on practicing motions... Same principle as tai chi! This is one reason novices are very bad at chopping firewood... They can't hit the same spot twice in a row. You need only average dexterity if you rely on practiced motions, as muscle memory will aide you.
Eltan, Belt and any other settled fighter suffers from spending gold on things other than equipment. He needs a fine house as a duke, remember, and most dress very well. Sarevok was free to expend not only his 'wealth allotment' for his level on ger, he also had massive funds from the Iron Throne. Hence sending various assassins after char name. I would expect Eltan to have gear on par or a bit better than drizzt, which would mean sarevok has him outclassed. Eltan isn't expecting to have to personally fight a high level enemy at this point.
Though, as Dread Khan points out, Eltan's equipment may be sub-par compared to CHARNAME or Sarevok. You can be the greatest swordsman in the realms, but if you're running on a +1 longsword, you're going to probably run into some issues against Sarevok's Blade of Chaos.
Perhaps you're right in assuming he did not buy any equipment in his later years, but wouldn't it also be correct to assume he would have a number of weapons/armors from his adventuring days?
His +1 longsword and full plate that he wears in game may just be ornamental. As far as I know you're not actually supposed to be able to kill Eltan in game. He is invulnerable if I remember correctly. This leads me to the conclusion that his equipment was only for show and we were never truly meant to know what he actually carries.