Here is an interesting thread where some posters try to show that Wizard Slayer is the best Fighter kit.
According to Gilad (quote):
1. The 10% spell failure stops every spell-like ability on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE!! This means that it'll get harder to rage if you meet a barbarian, set traps if you fight against thieves and most of all, it stops all kinds of enemies spellcasting. Neither Mellisan nor Irenicus is immune to this so it stops most of their effects totally as they WILL survive 10 blows. But remember this exception; spelltriggers and contingency spells WILL work no matter the hits.
But remember, it only gives you 99% no matter the hits and IIRC each blow works for one hour.
2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok. No matter your protection, you will always be affected by this hazardous spell failure as long as you hit the enemy with the roll. This makes all these blows against a stoneskinned, fireshield protected mage actually useful.
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. When the hit is labeled as "weapon inefective" the spell penality does not apply, so improved mantle will protect against a WS if his weapon isn't strong enough to bypass it.
Here is an interesting thread where some posters try to show that Wizard Slayer is the best Fighter kit.
According to Gilad (quote):
1. The 10% spell failure stops every spell-like ability on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE!! This means that it'll get harder to rage if you meet a barbarian, set traps if you fight against thieves and most of all, it stops all kinds of enemies spellcasting. Neither Mellisan nor Irenicus is immune to this so it stops most of their effects totally as they WILL survive 10 blows. But remember this exception; spelltriggers and contingency spells WILL work no matter the hits.
But remember, it only gives you 99% no matter the hits and IIRC each blow works for one hour.
2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok. No matter your protection, you will always be affected by this hazardous spell failure as long as you hit the enemy with the roll. This makes all these blows against a stoneskinned, fireshield protected mage actually useful.
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. When the hit is labeled as "weapon inefective" the spell penality does not apply, so improved mantle will protect against a WS if his weapon isn't strong enough to bypass it.
that is the idea that you use better weapon than mantle and normal weapon vs pfmw
Here is an interesting thread where some posters try to show that Wizard Slayer is the best Fighter kit.
According to Gilad (quote):
1. The 10% spell failure stops every spell-like ability on everyone, and I mean EVERYONE!! This means that it'll get harder to rage if you meet a barbarian, set traps if you fight against thieves and most of all, it stops all kinds of enemies spellcasting. Neither Mellisan nor Irenicus is immune to this so it stops most of their effects totally as they WILL survive 10 blows. But remember this exception; spelltriggers and contingency spells WILL work no matter the hits.
But remember, it only gives you 99% no matter the hits and IIRC each blow works for one hour.
2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok. No matter your protection, you will always be affected by this hazardous spell failure as long as you hit the enemy with the roll. This makes all these blows against a stoneskinned, fireshield protected mage actually useful.
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. When the hit is labeled as "weapon inefective" the spell penality does not apply, so improved mantle will protect against a WS if his weapon isn't strong enough to bypass it.
that is the idea that you use better weapon than mantle and normal weapon vs pfmw
Dude, i'm in fact more than pretty sure that when an weapon hit as "weapon inefective" it doesn't take magic spell penality ability of WS. the guy stated that no matter what the WS ability would hit.
"2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok."
The fact that an high magic weapon would hit, bypassing the mantle, and therefore apply the ability is beyond the obvious.
I just had an idea, and I hope this thread doesn't die before some of you experts could "riddle me this".
What would happen if you started a wizard slayer, and then dualled to mage very early on?
If I understand correctly, that 10% spell failure per hit is a constant from level one, and never gets any better with levels- the only improvement per level is a measly 1% spell resistance, plus the same level benefits that all fighters get.
So, what about a level one (or three or five) WS/x level mage?
Would the WS magic item restriction override the mage items? Meaning no bracers, Robes of Archmage or Vecna, etc.? Or, would the mage levels override the restrictions and allow robes, bracers, wands, etc., while still keeping the 10% per hit spell failure?
With luck you would be able to use an robe, otherwise you would probally run the entire game naked with a weapon in hand, pretty funny in fact!
The best combo is WS/Thief, the use any item overcome the WS penalities, therefore in later levels you can break the item restriction, but... too much later for my taste, the need to wait for HLAs really make it unworthy.
The best idea so far, besides remake the class, is to change the game itens to be arcane enchanted or divine enchanted, being the last kind usable by WS.
PS: you can also bug the game, dual the class to druid, thief, mage, cleric... what you want, and then equip what you want on the character before reactivate the old class. But you can do this with EE keeper also, so whatever.
@kamuizin, thank you so much for answering, but, in fact, you have deftly and somewhat humorously avoided answering the question with the two-word phrase "with luck". Whether or not mage robes and bracers can be used with a dualled wizard slayer/mage was my question, in fact, and not "with luck".
As for "running the entire game naked with a weapon in hand", that's exactly what fighter-mages do, using Mage Armor, Shield, Ghost/Spirit Armor, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Improved Invisible, Haste, Mislead, Protection from Magic Weapons, Simulacrum, etc., etc.
I just had an idea, and I hope this thread doesn't die before some of you experts could "riddle me this".
What would happen if you started a wizard slayer, and then dualled to mage very early on?
If I understand correctly, that 10% spell failure per hit is a constant from level one, and never gets any better with levels- the only improvement per level is a measly 1% spell resistance, plus the same level benefits that all fighters get.
So, what about a level one (or three or five) WS/x level mage?
Would the WS magic item restriction override the mage items? Meaning no bracers, Robes of Archmage or Vecna, etc.? Or, would the mage levels override the restrictions and allow robes, bracers, wands, etc., while still keeping the 10% per hit spell failure?
@IkMarc, hmm, okay. It still might be something I would like to try in practice, though. You do know this from having tried it yourself, right? I assume the mage items would be perfectly useable until the WS levels reactivate, at least. So then, it would come down to how many levels of WS before dualling, and, how badly do you really need the Robe of Vecna in SoA and ToB, or the Ring of Wizardry, or other rings.
Also, I wonder if the WS restrictions will affect wand useage, since the WS pure class would have restrictions from wands as a default fighter tag, and the program writers might not have seen fit to go back and remove wand useage from a dual WS/mage.
EDIT: I am getting more and more tempted to play this, and report on it, since I get the feeling that most people who talk about the WS class have never actually played one. Could someone please remind me of what fighters get at third and fifth levels? I'm not sure exactly when would be best to dual class. For a test, I guess I should just dual at first, or maybe third, since if I go any higher as a WS, I will not be able to test the dual in BG:EE. What fighter benefits come at third level?
Well @belgarathmth mauybe i didn't gave answer to your surface question, but your truly doubt i give solution even before you spoke it aloud !
@Necomancer, remember that HLAs are avaliable in the moment you hit any level up after 3.000.000 XP, therefore if you want to make a WS/Thief, dualing it at level 13 can be a pretty good option in BG 2 EE (no need to dual him at early game otherwise you will be stucked with a thief bind by a lot of restrictions for a long time).
I'm pretty sure this is wrong. When the hit is labeled as "weapon ineffective" the spell penalty does not apply, so improved mantle will protect against a WS if his weapon isn't strong enough to bypass it.
Actually, the original quote is not wrong. It does not say that when "weapon has no effect" these attacks are actually effective hits for a WS. It says, "as long as you hit the enemy with the roll". "Weapon has no effect" means that the weapon did not hit anything. (Though I admit there may be room for disagreement on that score.)
In any case, according to Habib expanding on what Gilad wrote (quote):
Actually, as Gilad said, you don't need to "damage"; but to "Hit". So, hitting Stoneskin or mirror image still counts. What does NOT count? Whenever you hit (i.e. attack) an enemy and it says "weapon has no effect", this means, Protection from magical weapons, protection from normal weapons, mantle and improved mantle.
Now, this is when the character gets tactical, not like other fighters where you attack the mage and then wait, you have to see which protection the mage uses:
-If he cast protection from normal weapons; you hit him with an enchanted weapons (your default weapon surely) -If he cast protection form magical weapons; you switch to the normal version of your enchanted equipment (as a Wizard slayer you should always carry an ordinary version of your weapon on your quick draw botton) - If he cast mantle, just hit him with a +3 weapon or better -If he cast improve mantle, just hit him with a +4 weapon.
End quote.
Had you consulted the thread I posted you would have seen that your comment was off the mark.
zur312's playthrough should give some good hands-on information on the effectiveness of WS in a heavily-modded high-difficulty game.
I suspect that WS are more effective as is than they are often given credit for, but personally have never played one. Stworca, an experienced player who has put up lots of Youtube videos of the most difficult battles using Weimer's Tactics Mod and SCSII, seems to like the WS/Thief dual.
@Neonfisk : Thanks for the input on the WS/Thief dual.
In an SCS II environment, the Wizard Slayers disabling can be nice, but I find its not super useful. Tough enemy spellcasters tend to be immune to normal weapons and rank PFMW as near the top of their protections list.
If I can hit them with a fighter, they are essentially already dead- there are a few exceptions to this (dragons!) but generally, its mages defenses that keep me out. And Wizard Slayer downsides are high, given I don't like theives- if you do, they are worth thinking about.
@Curmudgeon The build Stworca suggest relies on a tweak that gives misscasts on ranged attack combined with an early thief dual. I have tried it myself and it is efficient at shutting down priests, but for mages I found backstap or Breach/Dispell + Fighter to be a better solution.
It was fun as a gimmick, but I think any other thief dual or multi would have been better alround.
Comments
When the hit is labeled as "weapon inefective" the spell penality does not apply, so improved mantle will protect against a WS if his weapon isn't strong enough to bypass it.
works just like that
"2. Yes, stoneskinned liches will get effected, so will improved mantled Lavok."
The fact that an high magic weapon would hit, bypassing the mantle, and therefore apply the ability is beyond the obvious.
What would happen if you started a wizard slayer, and then dualled to mage very early on?
If I understand correctly, that 10% spell failure per hit is a constant from level one, and never gets any better with levels- the only improvement per level is a measly 1% spell resistance, plus the same level benefits that all fighters get.
So, what about a level one (or three or five) WS/x level mage?
Would the WS magic item restriction override the mage items? Meaning no bracers, Robes of Archmage or Vecna, etc.? Or, would the mage levels override the restrictions and allow robes, bracers, wands, etc., while still keeping the 10% per hit spell failure?
The best combo is WS/Thief, the use any item overcome the WS penalities, therefore in later levels you can break the item restriction, but... too much later for my taste, the need to wait for HLAs really make it unworthy.
The best idea so far, besides remake the class, is to change the game itens to be arcane enchanted or divine enchanted, being the last kind usable by WS.
PS: you can also bug the game, dual the class to druid, thief, mage, cleric... what you want, and then equip what you want on the character before reactivate the old class. But you can do this with EE keeper also, so whatever.
As for "running the entire game naked with a weapon in hand", that's exactly what fighter-mages do, using Mage Armor, Shield, Ghost/Spirit Armor, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Improved Invisible, Haste, Mislead, Protection from Magic Weapons, Simulacrum, etc., etc.
Does anyone know the answer to my question?
Also, I wonder if the WS restrictions will affect wand useage, since the WS pure class would have restrictions from wands as a default fighter tag, and the program writers might not have seen fit to go back and remove wand useage from a dual WS/mage.
EDIT: I am getting more and more tempted to play this, and report on it, since I get the feeling that most people who talk about the WS class have never actually played one. Could someone please remind me of what fighters get at third and fifth levels? I'm not sure exactly when would be best to dual class. For a test, I guess I should just dual at first, or maybe third, since if I go any higher as a WS, I will not be able to test the dual in BG:EE. What fighter benefits come at third level?
No, but I know how the system works. If you dual a Kensai to mage the restrictions also remain, which is as similar as it gets.
I don't know about all specific item types, so I would be curious to hear your results.
@Necomancer, remember that HLAs are avaliable in the moment you hit any level up after 3.000.000 XP, therefore if you want to make a WS/Thief, dualing it at level 13 can be a pretty good option in BG 2 EE (no need to dual him at early game otherwise you will be stucked with a thief bind by a lot of restrictions for a long time).
In any case, according to Habib expanding on what Gilad wrote (quote):
Actually, as Gilad said, you don't need to "damage"; but to "Hit". So, hitting Stoneskin or mirror image still counts. What does NOT count? Whenever you hit (i.e. attack) an enemy and it says "weapon has no effect", this means, Protection from magical weapons, protection from normal weapons, mantle and improved mantle.
Now, this is when the character gets tactical, not like other fighters where you attack the mage and then wait, you have to see which protection the mage uses:
-If he cast protection from normal weapons; you hit him with an enchanted weapons (your default weapon surely)
-If he cast protection form magical weapons; you switch to the normal version of your enchanted equipment (as a Wizard slayer you should always carry an ordinary version of your weapon on your quick draw botton)
- If he cast mantle, just hit him with a +3 weapon or better
-If he cast improve mantle, just hit him with a +4 weapon.
End quote.
Had you consulted the thread I posted you would have seen that your comment was off the mark.
zur312's playthrough should give some good hands-on information on the effectiveness of WS in a heavily-modded high-difficulty game.
I suspect that WS are more effective as is than they are often given credit for, but personally have never played one. Stworca, an experienced player who has put up lots of Youtube videos of the most difficult battles using Weimer's Tactics Mod and SCSII, seems to like the WS/Thief dual.
@Neonfisk : Thanks for the input on the WS/Thief dual.
Here's a link to his "Guide to Tactical Mods":
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/guide-to-tactical-mods-spoilers.116063/
In an SCS II environment, the Wizard Slayers disabling can be nice, but I find its not super useful. Tough enemy spellcasters tend to be immune to normal weapons and rank PFMW as near the top of their protections list.
If I can hit them with a fighter, they are essentially already dead- there are a few exceptions to this (dragons!) but generally, its mages defenses that keep me out. And Wizard Slayer downsides are high, given I don't like theives- if you do, they are worth thinking about.
The build Stworca suggest relies on a tweak that gives misscasts on ranged attack combined with an early thief dual.
I have tried it myself and it is efficient at shutting down priests, but for mages I found backstap or Breach/Dispell + Fighter to be a better solution.
It was fun as a gimmick, but I think any other thief dual or multi would have been better alround.