BG vs ... NWN1, NWN2, IWD, IWD2, etc. -- Why come back?
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,060
Amazing really... Though I own all these titles and their expansions since their release days (having repurchased several on new platforms)...
There. is. nothing. like. BG.
To be fair:
- I actually like the 3rd (or 3.5th) edition rules over 2nd edition.
- I think both IWDs are really superb dungeon stomps, possibly quite better than either BG in dungeon design.
- graphics ... well NWNs are (in principle) much better (though marred severely by stupid camera)
So, why BG? Why always back to BG, for me?
The sense of Epic Peril from the beginning to the end is only present in BG and none of the other games:
Example: I just finished the NWN2 campaign again and started on its expansion (MotB) with a frontline protagonist. I can park in front of a lvl 20+ mage being mildly annoyed by the spells he casts while wailing at him and his minions. In BG, mage fights are always a peril -- at all levels. Similarly, for Sirines, Mind Flayers, Beholders, Demons etc.
In BG:
You *can* win -- if you think hard constantly, making use of all assets. But you *will* lose if you don't.
In IWD2, NWN2 etc.:
You will never loose if you are remotely half decent and paying a bit of attention.
(I only play no-reload, SCS, with no-cheese tactics or exploits, which is I think how this game is designed to be played.)
---
One other amazing aspect of BG vs all other games is the escalating mage arsenal and its counters:
- invisibility vs divination spells of various levels
- spell protections vs protection removals
- combat protections vs their counters
This meta-magic game was never reproduced outside of BG -- delicious for a connoisseur.
---
That's all.
My thanks to the developers for reviving this great game.
It is still the best of the best after all these years.
There. is. nothing. like. BG.
To be fair:
- I actually like the 3rd (or 3.5th) edition rules over 2nd edition.
- I think both IWDs are really superb dungeon stomps, possibly quite better than either BG in dungeon design.
- graphics ... well NWNs are (in principle) much better (though marred severely by stupid camera)
So, why BG? Why always back to BG, for me?
The sense of Epic Peril from the beginning to the end is only present in BG and none of the other games:
Example: I just finished the NWN2 campaign again and started on its expansion (MotB) with a frontline protagonist. I can park in front of a lvl 20+ mage being mildly annoyed by the spells he casts while wailing at him and his minions. In BG, mage fights are always a peril -- at all levels. Similarly, for Sirines, Mind Flayers, Beholders, Demons etc.
In BG:
You *can* win -- if you think hard constantly, making use of all assets. But you *will* lose if you don't.
In IWD2, NWN2 etc.:
You will never loose if you are remotely half decent and paying a bit of attention.
(I only play no-reload, SCS, with no-cheese tactics or exploits, which is I think how this game is designed to be played.)
---
One other amazing aspect of BG vs all other games is the escalating mage arsenal and its counters:
- invisibility vs divination spells of various levels
- spell protections vs protection removals
- combat protections vs their counters
This meta-magic game was never reproduced outside of BG -- delicious for a connoisseur.
---
That's all.
My thanks to the developers for reviving this great game.
It is still the best of the best after all these years.
15
Comments
this is true for me too
3rd ed is great for stat purpose
more wisdom more spells and ST
more conc more hp and ST
etc.
_but_ spells in bg2>spells in iwd2
time stops
pfmw
planetars
etc.
iwd2 is better for cleric/druid spells i think but than there is 9th level and you have only gate LOL so stupid, look at bg2 HLA cleric spells this is more like high level!
In 2nd edition (and subsequently in BG) mages (and mage-mix classes) are game changers, powerhouses. Not all classes are equal, not by far.
In their effort to equalize all the classes, Wizards of the Coast and all subsequent games nerfed the epicness of the experience. It's all become like a single player MMORPG.
Being a god-spawn that re-writes the history is what I want.
(Notably, Planescape:Torment is a class of its own: but that is not due to gameplay but story-telling!)
BG has the best balance, it is full of lively, creative and iconic characters. Many players cherish and love their favourite NPCs as if they are real-life, breathing people. And it offers best tactical fights and spell-based strategy in a pc game, IMHO, especially if you get the tactical mods like SCS. Ah yes, what's more, it has a gigantic modding community, and you can customise your game to your tastes with the help of numerous mods, and game editors that are easy to learn like Shadow Keeper, DLTCEP, etc. You can create the game world you want and shape it and your character, enemies and NPCs according to your tastes. No modded BG game is like another, it is personal fantasy escapism, engaging and exciting game play, and based on many fan-fictions and fan-arts around, BG inspires people to create art to no end. It is BG, the epitome of the computer role playing games, a real classic in every sense.
NWN 1 was pretty crappy out of the box...but some of the User created modules or Persistent worlds were top notch, approaching Torment levels of awesomeness, and with a mod or two, pretty much all the complaints of NWN can be easily fixed (even I have trouble playing the game vanilla, due to how horrible the models look and how retarded the companion AI is at times..and the lack of being able to change their equipment)...unlike it's successor, who is beyond help (and I have tried but I just can't find the mods/tools to make NWN 2 not suck).
NWN 2, the interface, graphics, original campaign, camera, all bring it down to the point you need to be a masochist to actually try and play it. I suffered through it once, just to try and justify the cost, but that was it. While I agree MotB was a massive step up in writing quality, the fact it was saddled with NWN 2's engine can't really save the game. And the persistent worlds and modules are in the similar vein....you can have the best writing in the world, but if the game is borderline unplayable because of a broken clunky interface (leaving aside it's graphics issues), it doesn't matter at all.
You want a game that will positively destroy you, even IF you power game...ToEE (after the Co8 fixes). That games only fault is being based in generic and boring Greyhawk, using one of the first modules ever made (While not technically bad....it doesn't have the gravity that it would've back in the day, since everything it does has been seen a thousand times by this point). It uses proper turn-based, and implements damn near every PnP combat option that doesn't involve swimming or a Z-axis. I REALLY wish Troika hadn't gone down...they could've expanded that game in SOOO many interesting ways.
Baldur's Gate is a mixed bag for me...I like the story, and the gameplay is decent....but it's hard to say I enjoy it. The rule porting is inconsistent and pretty clear they favored certain classes over others in terms of modifying the mechanics. It's also very combat heavy....there are very few times where you can talk your way out of combat despite Friends and charm spells being used for that very purpose in PnP, and it also lacks a level of intent, making playing as anything other then good or maybe neutral less satisfying, since it ignores your intent...you can be the most evil SOB alive, but actually having half a brain and yet the game treats you like a Saint for taking the most practical and selfish choices.
I would've actually preferred that they used Torment's style of determining Alignment for the PC, including the ability to choose your lines based on intent, rather then arbitrarily deciding that you did it because you're a Saint.
Imagine:
A BG-type spell list with a ToEE style turn-based engine, IWD dungeon design, Torment story telling, and a (fixed camera, but zoomable) NWN2 graphics!
FIGHT
but still BG is the best for me
didn't play NWN's, TOEE, Arcanum
The scripts were great, the voice-acting superb, and no other game, in the history of gaming, has achieved the same level of quality NPC interactions as BG did.
I never bothered to buy DA2 after hearing what a cockup it was.
Other RPGs (Mass Effect etc.) don't even deserve mention in the same thread, though they may have been enjoyable for other reasons.
Tactical turn based has the best depth. I hope the next BG or the next Torment would implement that.
Problem is: it requires spectacular AI.
** How come communities can design good AI post-mortem, but not paid programmers during development?! **
moder had the time
Immersion is when I'm playing Condemned Criminal origins, and the cat brushes up against me while I'm defending myself from a homeless man with a bat. The cat gets a instinctual kick, as I scream my lungs out. That's immersion.
Immersion is when I'm playing Minecraft, and I'm in a dark gloomy cave. As I fumble to get a torch up, a book falls off my desk. I jump to my feet, fall backwards, and flail widely to escape whatever fresh hell is coming at me from the game. That's immersion.
And indeed, immersion is when I am brought to tears when I discover Khalid is dead. I am crying over a string of numbers. That is immersion.
In Baldur's Gate, it sucks you in with ease. The story, the lore, the possibilities. After a short prologue, you're given a sword and an overarching goal. You could see straight to it, or hike 100 miles in the other direction and slay a group of zombies harassing some farmers. In no time at all, you'll care more for your character's hit points then your own hunger.
To further explain why Baldur's Gate stands out for me as my favorite game is this. There are two kinds of games I play. 1, I stop playing because I'm bored/want to play something else. Or 2, it's 6 hours past when I should have eaten. Baldur's Gate happily falls under the second column.
Immersion, endless possibilities, and the entire lore of Faerun that Baldur's Gate has introduced me to (currently making my way through the Legend of Drizzt series) is what makes it my favorite game. Not the best game, not the most fun, but my favorite.
Well said (on immersion).
Lore, faithfully developed, is what gets good mileage for these games for me -- especially when Lore is coupled to the game challenge somehow.
Arcanum was unfortunately among the many botched good ideas. I tried to so much to like it. It just was not possible...
Tales of Maj'Eyal certainly looks promising, illustrating what a single developer an accomplish.
Perhaps, BGEE developers are also better off developing their own IP and Lore.
(Especially given that Atari and D&D license seems in eternal quagmire lately.)
We may never see a good D&D game again. Their new Neverwinter looks like a shallow by-the-book MMORPG clone. It *will* flop.
I will certainly support the upcoming new Torment. I would support a new such project from Beamdog also.
Tactical combat and good story and lore are also important factors.
While I agree that Baldur's Gate is the best and shining standard against which all the other rpg's should be compared and judged, I do enjoy NWN, Icewind Dale, Might and Magic, and DA:O as well as some arpg's like Sacred, Torchlight, and Titan Quest.
I have a rotation over about a two year cycle, where I keep replaying all my favorites listed above. The last time I added a new game to my rotation was with DA:O for the classic rpg's, and Torchlight 2 for the arpg's. It's getting more and more rare for me to find new games to go into my rotation. The last time I started a DA:O game, I lost interest halfway through and went back to a BG:EE run. "They don't make them like they used to."
You know what is weird: I have restartitis, too. BUT every time I restart BG it is a fighter/mage.
(I managed to convince myself to be a sorcerer once... by shadowkeepering Imoen into a fighter/mage...)
I think I need help. *sigh*
Ditto, on pretty much all accounts.
Are there more (new) of us, I wonder? Or are we a dying breed?