Is SCS being integrated into BGEE and BG2EE?

Ygramul

I heard the news that the developer of SCS @DavidW is now employed by BeamDog. If true this is great news: it honors great work by a venerable community member and it also shows that BeamDog takes the community (and AI development) seriously.

Could we expect that SCS will be integrated directly into BGEE and BG2EE then? (As I understand the current beta of SCS for BGEE remains un-updated for several months now.)

If this is the case it is probably an instant sale for BG2EE for many of us old veterans.

Kilivitz

I don't think they're interested in making the default game more difficult or challenging (one has to remember that the game is already difficult as it is - SCS is aimed towards players who know every battle by heart and are looking for a new challenge).

I think DavidW's joining the team has more to do with his extensive knowledge and experience with the engine. I'm sure he has a lot to contribute, even if SCS will keep being unofficial content.

O_Bruce

I don't think so, since SCS can be configured in many different ways - and such, it should stay as a mod. Also, you forget about new players that often finds basic BG hard enough. Forgetting about this factor seems to be a norm to BG fans, thought.

Ygramul

Pity.

I usually only install SCS AI components anyway, not most of the encounter difficulties. I believe AI improvements of SCS to be essential to my experience. If the transition of @DavidW will cost the community the porting & development of SCS, I would say it is a bad trade.

I do hope that BeamDog would encourage him to continue his excellent AI work.

IkMarc

I believe they are not allowed to do this due to their contract agreements.

lunar

I can not praise @DavidW enough, truly, his mod contributes so much to the enjoyment I have from BG:EE. I had to play BG:EE without his mod in the first few months, and it just was not the same.

Aasimar069

Ygramul said:

I heard the news that the developer of SCS @DavidW is now employed by BeamDog. If true this is great news: it honors great work by a venerable community member and it also shows that BeamDog takes the community (and AI development) seriously.

Could we expect that SCS will be integrated directly into BGEE and BG2EE then? (As I understand the current beta of SCS for BGEE remains un-updated for several months now.)

If this is the case it is probably an instant sale for BG2EE for many of us old veterans.

I hope not, though he did a great work with SCS.

Perhaps an option during installation...

Ygramul

In case I was unclear:
I do not mean the entirety of SCS mods (e.g. encounter changes) becoming canon.
I only mean the *AI* -- and some of the crucial spell tweaks, such as targeting anti-spell defenses (Spell Thrust etc.) through invisibility etc.

These are leaps and bounds beyond the vanilla.

I have yet to see a single circumstance where a community complains that an AI is too good in a game. These AI improvements deserve to be made integral to BGEE/BG2EE.

Lemernis

If David is joining Beamdog that's fantastic news. He is one someone that I would say deserves the title of creative genuis for modding with BG. SCS is the single best innovation I have ever seen for the game since it's release.

Edit: oops, I'm late to the party, David has been with Beamdog for a while now.

Aasimar069

Ygramul said:

In case I was unclear:
I do not mean the entirety of SCS mods (e.g. encounter changes) becoming canon.
I only mean the *AI* -- and some of the crucial spell tweaks, such as targeting anti-spell defenses (Spell Thrust etc.) through invisibility etc.

These are leaps and bounds beyond the vanilla.

I have yet to see a single circumstance where a community complains that an AI is too good in a game. These AI improvements deserve to be made integral to BGEE/BG2EE.

As an option, yes.

Otherwise they will succumb to the same evil BGT and BGTutu : changing encounters too much (ie for instance the final fight vs Semaj where he can spam greater malisson, dispell magic AND flesh to stone).

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Lemernis

All sorts of things are possible via DLC.

Ygramul

AI-only improvements should be core elements.

Not optional. Not DLC.

They fix the intended game-play, not alter it drastically.

For everything else, there will be mods...

Dexter

I'm one of those players that can't enjoy BG without SCS, and I think the best argument I have is the "Better Calls for Help" component. This component alone changes BG into a whole new epic game. Let's face it, fighting one foe at a time isn't realistic and vanilla AI in this sense is just non existent. Yet it is the oldest cheese around here.

But,

I think this component (and most SCS components for that matter) would be to much for casual players that wouldn't like to be killed 10 times in their first hour of game. No, I think those players would give up playing the game right away, and that's no good. This mod, which again is my favourite and a must have, is definitely not suited for all players, it has its own learning curve.

I guess SCS could be a separate game option or a new setting on the difficulty slider, but I like it so much the way it is right now that I wouldn't mind it to stay as a mod only.

Iecerint

You're vulnerable in your first hour of the game regardless of whether you have SCS.

The most noticeable SCS changes are the mid-game mage fights (because they get defenses that are hard to deal with that early) and the spiders.

Wanderon

Slippery slope - discriminates against those who want to keep the core game intact which is supposed to be one of the tenets of making BGEE to begin with - those that want it can always install it as a mod - those that may not want it are stuck with it if it becomes non-optional content just because some people want it -

hopefully contract obligations will solve the issue anyway without any further decision needed to be made.

Ygramul

I'm afraid that those "contract obligations" may stifle and drown a great AI improvement project without the community speaking up about its value.

Wanderon

Ygramul said:

I'm afraid that those "contract obligations" may stifle and drown a great AI improvement project without the community speaking up about its value.

What makes it less valuable when it is applied as a mod and everyone gets to choose to use it or not?

Luigirules

No.

And it shouldn't. If you want the game to be harder, that's your choice.

I ran through the game with SCS installed recently, and the pre-battle mage buffing made my game so miserable I had to remove it mid-game.

So if it makes it unbearable for me, who's played this game entirely too much, why would we make it that miserable for the new people the game needs to really succeed?

Kilivitz

I think the fact that certain players consider certain mods essential speaks more of the quality of the mod itself than of the supposed lack of quality of the original game.

shawne

Kilivitz said:

I think the fact that certain players consider certain mods essential speaks more of the quality of the mod itself than of the supposed lack of quality of the original game.

I'd take it a step further and argue that it says more about the player than it does about either the mod or the original game. Some want their games to be more challenging; more power to them. I don't - I play BG on Normal and that's how I like it, and quite frankly some battles frustrate me enough as it is.

There's a difference between arguing for story-based mods (ie: Unfinished Business, Ascension) and gameplay mods because the latter is something that can potentially affect the entire game, start to finish, whereas story mods add or change specific segments in the narrative.

smeagolheart

They should integrate SCS into the game. Make it an option that you can toggle in game.

Click this button in the option menu, SCS on. Click it again, SCS off. Or when you start a game you can start it with SCS or not.

Ygramul

Luigirules said:

I ran through the game with SCS installed recently, and the pre-battle mage buffing made my game so miserable I had to remove it mid-game.

As I said, *only* the AI improvements should go to the standard game. Nothing else. Pre-buffing is a significant change to gameplay, I agree. It should remain a mod. (Actually, vanilla game sometimes does that already for major encounters in BG2. As I recall Daveorn in BG1 also had some prebuffs, but I haven't seem him non-SCS in a long time.)

My worry is that the contractual obligations may prevent further development of a great mod.

FACT: SCS has not been updated for many months and remains in beta state for BGEE. It may never be updated by its developer again due to contractual obligations.

So, a community call of appreciation is not ill-placed I think.

Eudaemonium

Why on earth would it remain in beta state due to 'contractual limitations'? Just because DavidW works for Overhaul now, this does not mean he is somehow not allowed to mod anymore.

Also while it is listed as in 'beta', it actually works perfectly fine. Maybe it hasn't been updated because it didn't have to be?

mlnevese

Let me add that AFAIK none of the modders Overhaul hired had to give up their mods or modding in general.

Ygramul

mlnevese said:

Let me add that AFAIK none of the modders Overhaul hired had to give up their mods or modding in general.

This is good to know.

BG is certainly enhanced greatly by the modding community.