[Spoiler] What if Yoshimo...

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Aedan

I think his current location is fine.

Kaltzor

I think it might work better... But then again if you don't take him with you and the enterance collapses, I don't think Irenicus goes back for him.

CaptRory

I think it would be likely for there to be a few secret passages to the surface that the party never found on their way out. Yoshimo could always turn up again later.

God

Kill it with fire instead.

Palanthis

[spoiler]
Yoshimo is a very interesting character in the saga because he's the only NPC you can recruit who actually betrays you. It's predictable, but still fun and i almost always take him.
I'm wondering if the devs will change or add something to his post-mortem quest in BG2EE... maybe he'll be back and recrutable again at the end of SoA ?
[ /spoiler]

Jalily

@Palanthis To add real spoiler tags, do this without the spaces: [ spoiler ] [ / spoiler ]

Palanthis

Thanks, i was looking for them

Shin

Palanthis said:

It's predictable, but still fun and i almost always take him.

How predictable is it really? With the Yoshimo friendship mod you can get a feeling for how torn he is, but in vanilla? I certainly didn't see it coming the first time through.

Itstucktwice

@Shin

I actually did see it coming because I remember it striking me as odd that you find a thief in the very dungeon you are trying to escape from, and rather than ditch you the second you get out, he sticks with your party and even attempts somewhat to guide your direction.

Unlike a lot of people, I never really liked him as a character anyway.

Palanthis

Like Shin said (except i like this character, also the only pure thief in BG2, and with a real thief background to explore).

I think that's why Samus ask to move Yoshimo in a cell.

ZanathKariashi

Wouldn't be that difficult to add a trigger to simply port him to the tavern if the party attempts to leave the prelude without talking to/releasing him (releasing him but not accepting his aid would just work the same as turning him down normally). And add a line to his first meeting conversation (if not released), where the player can ask, "hey weren't you locked up in that dungeon too?" "Yeah, thanks for helping me escape back there....not.......I'm just glad those thieves turned out to be more benevolent then you", and have him charge the player a fee to hire his bounty hunter talents for tracking down info on their missing friend/captor.

And if the player doesn't hire him, he teams up with Saemon in order to get on the Island with the players so that he can always show up for the fight.


Though I'm still a huge supporter for getting his quest-lines fully fleshed out, the way it was meant to be (complete with getting him back at the end, if you wanted to, and fully fleshing out his sub-plot with Sarevok), if they can get permission to do it (I'm totally fine with non-voiced lines...as long as the content is there, it's cool....I hate having to cheat to get him back in the party). Even if they don't do anything else of note, if that gets implemented I'll probably buy the game (thus far haven't been very happy with some of the alterations...or lack thereof with BG;EE, and their contract limitations are especially annoying....since it means ToB will never be the full 3rd game it was intended to be, before it turned into a rushed, contradictory hack-job of an x-pack due to time constraints).

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bbear

It's possible that Yoshimo can survive Spellhold and stay with you forever...

Video: 4:30-5:05
Credit goes to smilge, the person who made the 6 min speed run for ToB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy1pzNq1Ptk

Syntia13

@Samus Yep, might add more credibility to his story. (Saying that in hindsight - the first time I played, I fell for the scam completely). Even having him where he is but without armor and weapon would help. His katana could be stashed in a chest in the room where you find Khalid, and there's plenty of leather armors lying around, so you could equip him right away, and feel all superior and generous about it.

@Palanthis Predictable? I think he played his part brilliantly - he was my BFF, and I never suspected him of deceit until he slipped and started acting shifty on the island. (I was a little peeved that I wasn't able to confront him about it before going to the asylum, but oh well, I guess you can't have everything).
On the other hand, I'm a fairly gullible person and I tend to take the words of NPCs at face value. (And even I knew Melissan was a fake the moment I saw her - shame on you, ToB writers) ;P

@ZanathKariashi his sub-plot with Sarevok . Wait, what? Yoshimo has some connection to Sarevok? How? And how did I miss it?

What I would really love would be if we got a chance to beat Yoshimo without killing him - slapping him into unconciousness, or turning him to stone. Then we could take some time out of our soul-searching schedule to track down a spell to remove geas from him - after all we know for a fact it's possible, and Umberlee cult is not limited to Baldur's Gate. For that matter, they are probably not the only cult who could help us with this. Then we could have our thief back, bound to us instead Irenicus.
Wishful thinking, I know, but a girl can dream, right?

Eudaemonium

@Syntia13: I believe Yoshimo is actually the brother or cousin (forget which) of Tamoko, Sarevok's lover (who you probably killed in BG1).

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ZanathKariashi

@Synthia13

Yoshimo is Tamoko's brother and originally came to Faerun to search for her, after she ran off with Sarevok.

His whole sub-plot doesn't begin until AFTER he dies, since you were supposed to have the option to tell the priest of Illmater of the circumstances holding his soul in limbo after death, which starts a questline to break the Geas he's under, at which point you got the option of letting him go on to the after life, or reviving him so he can have a chance at revenge against Irenicus. At which point, he opens up about his past and why he came to Faerun in the first place, since he's no longer bound by the Geas.

And once he and Sarevok meet in ToB...well...it's not exactly a happy reunion (He either blames Sarevok for Tamoko disappearing, or getting her killed, if you admit earlier that you killed her (If you did) while she was defending him. He doesn't blame you for it if you did, since it was only to be expected that she would defend the man she loved, even if he was just using her).

Which goes off in 2 different directions depending on if you do or don't redeem Sarevok. unredeemed is fairly unrepentant about the whole affair and eventually leads to Yoshimo attacking him, and while redeeming him causes him to open up and try to make amends with Yoshimo, who does eventually forgive him.

(If you cheat and add Yoshimo to the party with Sarevok, at some point after he's redeemed, he has two conversions where he's addressing Yoshimo about Tamoko and his remorse over the whole affair)

Yoshimo also has several conversions that occur after he can no longer be in the party without cheating/exploiting (Such as in Hell or right before the Assault on the top of the tree).

Some elements of their joint ending were merged into Sarevok's ending, mostly the part about him returning Tamoko's ashes to Kara-tur, if she died (otherwise he and Yoshimo walk the realms trying to find her), and the redeemed Sarevok realizing what a MASSIVE mistake he'd made by letting his ambition rob him of what he had at one time genuinely cherished.


Several of the developers will openly agree that the above is that was intended, but they ran out of time and it ended up getting cut (I blame Imeon, personally, since they had to suddenly add a bunch of stuff for her last minute because of people getting annoyed at her being killed off in Spellhold, even though she was originally supposed to be just a cameo from the previous game to help kick off SoA's plot).

demented

Itstucktwice said:

@Shin

I actually did see it coming because I remember it striking me as odd that you find a thief in the very dungeon you are trying to escape from, and rather than ditch you the second you get out, he sticks with your party and even attempts somewhat to guide your direction.

Unlike a lot of people, I never really liked him as a character anyway.

It may be suspicious but if you question why one character joined you, then you need to question them all. Why would Edwin, Korgon or Viconia stick around after you've helped them? Why would Keldorn, Nalia or Mazzy stay with you when you keep making cruel selfish choices?

You can justify their decisions but you can also justify Yoshima's decision. Maybe he saw the possibility for gold or was worried about the thief guild and knew they were unlikely to fight a possible ally.

ZanathKariashi

Or you know, "Hey that A-hole wizard captured and tortured us both, lets go straight up murder his ass! Also, you should probably go save your friend...you know, unless you're a massive prick".

Eudaemonium

I was so sad when Imoen died in Spellhold, but it was a fitting end to her character.

My evil Bhaalspawn made sure to eat her soul when we got it back from Bodhi. I think it was nutritious.

Palanthis

Eudaemonium said:

I was so sad when Imoen died in Spellhold, but it was a fitting end to her character.

My evil Bhaalspawn made sure to eat her soul when we got it back from Bodhi. I think it was nutritious.

Wait, is there a way she can die in the story ?
I wish that could be possible. Could make sense and add greatly to the tragedy sense of SoA.

BTW here is the fight between Imoen and Sarevok :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy6YIV_NG8E

Malicron

Palanthis said:

Eudaemonium said:

I was so sad when Imoen died in Spellhold, but it was a fitting end to her character.

Wait, is there a way she can die in the story ?
I wish that could be possible. Could make sense and add greatly to the tragedy sense of SoA.

Not unless you kill her yourself. He's alluding to the fact that in the original script for the game Imoen was supposed to die in Spellhold; she was only supposed to have a cameo in the beginning, hence her large amount of dialog at the start of the game, and comparatively little in the rest of it. This didn't go over well with many fans (myself included) though, so it was scrapped, and Yoshimo's post-Spellhold story was trashed to make room for her.

I'm glad that Imoen survived, but I'd have liked to see Yoshimo live as well. I know there's a lot of his post-Spellhold stuff still in the game files; has anyone ever made a mode trying to restore it? Or one that kills Imoen if you take too long to get to Spellhold, for that matter? (doesn't make much sense that I can take as long as I want and Iranicus takes care of her all of that time.)

Eudaemonium

Palanthis said:

Eudaemonium said:

I was so sad when Imoen died in Spellhold, but it was a fitting end to her character.

My evil Bhaalspawn made sure to eat her soul when we got it back from Bodhi. I think it was nutritious.

Wait, is there a way she can die in the story ?
I wish that could be possible. Could make sense and add greatly to the tragedy sense of SoA.

Sadly, no. I was just pretending to whimsically reflect on the event. Y'know in that kind of 'Imoen stands there waiting to be recruited, Charname proclaims loudly how saddened she/he is that Imoen died so tragically, but will be avenged!'

Honestly, unless I am good, most times I kill her myself and just pretend she died. It also saves those inconvenient plot moments in ToB.

Southpaw

Samus said:

Would it be better if Yoshimo was found trapped in one of the cells in the beginning of BG2 for you to release than where you currently find him?

That would mean there was no sanity in all that madness. And who would beg your assistance? (Unless you were in league with the evil that dwells in that unholy place.)

BelgarathMTH

@ZanathKariashi, what is your source for all that info about abandoned Yoshimo storywriting?

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ZanathKariashi

A couple different developers posting about what they wanted to do but ultimately had to give up due to time constraints on the bioware forums, since people had cheated him in and found Yoshimo's later conversions and were asking around if he was originally meant to stick around longer, it was A LONG time ago though. (Given that several bits and piece can be found in game to back it up, I'm fully convinced they weren't just talking out their ass). Gaider himself confirmed that Tamoko was Yoshimo's sister and that he came to Faerun to find her, as well as some future interactions planned with Big Angry but after Yoshimo ended up being cut from SoA, they dropped his ToB sub-plot completely (aside from a few lines that slipped in, before Yoshimo was officially cut, and either were forgotten about or just overlooked).

The rest came from several other developers chiming in on the overall plot of how his questline was supposed to work.

BelgarathMTH

Hmm, it would be nice if they could have fully made the game they intended. I think they would like to do so now. Curse those contract restrictions!

GandalfPortraitGuy

Malicron said:

Palanthis said:

Eudaemonium said:

I was so sad when Imoen died in Spellhold, but it was a fitting end to her character.

Wait, is there a way she can die in the story ?
I wish that could be possible. Could make sense and add greatly to the tragedy sense of SoA.

Not unless you kill her yourself. He's alluding to the fact that in the original script for the game Imoen was supposed to die in Spellhold; she was only supposed to have a cameo in the beginning, hence her large amount of dialog at the start of the game, and comparatively little in the rest of it. This didn't go over well with many fans (myself included) though, so it was scrapped, and Yoshimo's post-Spellhold story was trashed to make room for her.

I'm glad that Imoen survived, but I'd have liked to see Yoshimo live as well. I know there's a lot of his post-Spellhold stuff still in the game files; has anyone ever made a mode trying to restore it? Or one that kills Imoen if you take too long to get to Spellhold, for that matter? (doesn't make much sense that I can take as long as I want and Iranicus takes care of her all of that time.)

If there were a way to Resurrect Yoshimo after bringing his heart to Ilmater's preist, that would make sense.