I don't think kits should be more powerful than the original - just a more specialized flavor of the original - like the original is vanilla and the kit is French vanilla not the original is vanilla and the kit is vanilla fudge with walnuts and black raspberry swirl.
Yes, @AlcopopStar, that's the sense. Thou A) also Sorcerer can reach 100+ fire resistance and the resistance cap is 127. Which means you heal the 27% of the damage you should receive. Now, let's suppose you take a maxed Fireball in the face on purpose. It should inflict you 30 damage if you fail your save vs spell. But since you have 127 f.r. you will instead heal 30/100*27 = 8.1 hp. So I would say that a normal Healing Potion would be better, 99% of the times. A cool combo I use with my Sorc, after reaching more than 100 f.r., is to load a Chain Contingecy on enemy sight with 3 Incendiary Clouds, target: me. When it triggers, all the 3 of them will bypass magic resistance since I was the target (just like Sunfire) and they also heal me. But hey, you don't have to be a Dragon Disciple for this trick. Let's play with fire a little bit more: If you cast a Sunfire while you have a Ring of Fire Protection equipped, the spell will set your base f.r. to 100 + 40 from the ring = 127. It means you get healed by the Sunfire. Sunfire gives this 100 f.r. for 3 seconds, if you cast Contingency, Spell Trigger, Chain Contingency, etc with the right timing you can make good combos. Another trick: a Red Dragon is going to incinerate you with its fire breath? Sunfire. And so on... With Tunic of Vecna + Amulet of Power it has 0 casting time.
@FinneusPJ I don't know, ask it to the inventors of Cleric kits And btw, have you seen someone playing with normal Thief, Bard, Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Monk, etc? On the other hand, I still see people using unkitted Sorcerer.
Is there any way to get into contact with the devs about "issues" like this? I just really want to ask them about this kit and what the purpose of bringing it in was
Wait a minute, you're comparing the potential regeneration of maxed fire resistance to a healing potion without taking into account the damage avoided.
I'm in favor of getting rid of all the kits. The majority of them are utterly broken and should just be removed, if no one is going to bother giving them their appropriate abilities.
Make GM a single class, kitless fighter exclusive ability (as per PnP), no further specialization at all for fighter>X duals (as per PnP, and BG1 (vanilla)), and limited to ** for X>Fighter duals (as per PnP).
the ability to dual into a kit, if you don't have one yet (as per PnP, limit of 1 per character).
Proper dual-classing (One of each pool, that you meet the requirements for) and any classes can dual, as long as you meet the requirements and they don't specifically say otherwise.
Add the missing multiclasse combos.
Rebalancing kits to bring them in line with their PnP stats (or if they don't fit well within the game, then don't implement them at all, rather then making crap up), and if new ones are added, adding them from 2nd edition kits, not 3rd edition.
And actually adding some mage kits to the game. Specialists are NOT kits..not even the wild mage is a kit. The closest thing to a mage kit is the sorcerer.
Proper bonuses/penalties for mage specialization, including proper opposed schools. Add the shadow magic line of spells and some of the missing illusion spells.
Give stats ALL of their proper full benefits.
Nerf the hell out of negative plane protection the spell. Remove negative plane protection from items.
Make charm spells render the target friendly to the party (giving a large reaction bonus while active and negating hostility once it wears off), but without the full blown domination treatment.
I think it is far to late for such a large change and that would change BG to much, so that would be a bad idea. Though I still like the idea because it would create an all new feeling of progression it is better suited for another game.
Wait a minute, you're comparing the potential regeneration of maxed fire resistance to a healing potion without taking into account the damage avoided.
It was to show people how good this f.r. regen can really be.
Wow, the elitists really hate DD...yikes. The less spell castings per day can easily be overcome simply by resting...unless you have something against that for some weird reason, don't know why you would. I'm pretty sure the game isn't made just for people who like to do solo or no rest challenges exclusively. Plus if you are planning your char based on 1 or 2 key fights and need every single spell to make it through the battle there is an answer for that too...it's called casting from scrolls, I know, it is tough to wrap your head around but there it is. Personally I'm still waiting for them to fix all the bugs with the class before I give it a go, same with shadow dancer.
Why can't "they" just patch and improve this class,there is no point to playing one right now(except for the awesome class name!).
The only reason I think I would play as one right now is for roleplaying and because a bhaalspawn with draconic heritage just sounds like a deadly and amazing combination.
Don't really understand why the devs wanted to put it in the game, why not some psionic class instead?
Dude, psionics...that would be awesome. Plus it existed in 2nd ed so it would actually fit with this game rather than shoe-horning in another 3rd ed or 3.5 ed feature.
Why can't "they" just patch and improve this class,there is no point to playing one right now(except for the awesome class name!).
The only reason I think I would play as one right now is for roleplaying and because a bhaalspawn with draconic heritage just sounds like a deadly and amazing combination.
Don't really understand why the devs wanted to put it in the game, why not some psionic class instead?
Dude, psionics...that would be awesome. Plus it existed in 2nd ed so it would actually fit with this game rather than shoe-horning in another 3rd ed or 3.5 ed feature.
IIRC there was a psionic class mod for bg2.
I would love to see stats giving bonuses to appropriate saving throws. Like high dexterity gives bonus to save vs spells when hit by an energy discharge attack like lightning bolt. And high wisdom giving bonus when hit by a mind-influencing spell like charm, hold, etc.
Regarding the original debate, I would not try a sorcerer now there is DD around. Special abilities look cool and make for good rp'ing. Sorcerers have too many spells castable/day anyway.
I'm in favor of getting rid of all the kits. The majority of them are utterly broken and should just be removed, if no one is going to bother giving them their appropriate abilities.
Make GM a single class, kitless fighter exclusive ability (as per PnP), no further specialization at all for fighter>X duals (as per PnP, and BG1 (vanilla)), and limited to ** for X>Fighter duals (as per PnP).
the ability to dual into a kit, if you don't have one yet (as per PnP, limit of 1 per character).
Proper dual-classing (One of each pool, that you meet the requirements for) and any classes can dual, as long as you meet the requirements and they don't specifically say otherwise.
Add the missing multiclasse combos.
Rebalancing kits to bring them in line with their PnP stats (or if they don't fit well within the game, then don't implement them at all, rather then making crap up), and if new ones are added, adding them from 2nd edition kits, not 3rd edition.
And actually adding some mage kits to the game. Specialists are NOT kits..not even the wild mage is a kit. The closest thing to a mage kit is the sorcerer.
Proper bonuses/penalties for mage specialization, including proper opposed schools. Add the shadow magic line of spells and some of the missing illusion spells.
Give stats ALL of their proper full benefits.
Nerf the hell out of negative plane protection the spell. Remove negative plane protection from items.
Make charm spells render the target friendly to the party (giving a large reaction bonus while active and negating hostility once it wears off), but without the full blown domination treatment.
I'd totally be in favor of going "all 2e" but the cat is out of the bag. Heck, IIRC, there weren't even sorcerers in 2e.
Actually there were...I found them. They're in the Netheril Campaign supplement for FR....though they're A LOT more powerful then the BG sorcerer is...but it's somewhat justified as the Netheril campaigns are set before Karsus's Folly, back when 12th level was the 9th level of the day, and Wish was a common everyday utility spell.
They had a crap ton daily spells (12 up to 10th, 6 11th, 3 12th at lvl 20), were limited in capacity only by their intelligence (19+ had no limits for known spells (Only applied to sorcerers, mages used spellbooks and could have as many as they wanted, but needed the specific books on hand to memorize the spells they contained), but they still had to have the proper amount of Int to cast the spells. 20-21 for 10th, 22-23 for 11th, and 24-25 for 12th) and were superior to mages in every possible way (mages gained spell levels 1 level slower, and generally only got 3/4 the casting capacity, and had to memorize individual spells and maintain spells books rather then knowing all their spells), except they couldn't dual-class or specialize as their only disadvantages and being Human Only.
The proto-modern sorcerer (It had a section for adapting the kit to Post-Folly) is similar to the BG one, except it uses Int as a prime stat, and they only learned 1 spell automatically at each new spell level, the rested had to be learned from scrolls, up to their maximum, which was 3 per spell level, plus up to 4 more for high int (+1 each for 15, 16, 17 and 18 int). So...they'd actually be a bit more powerful in some regards....since they could max out their spell level as soon as they opened it up if they had the scrolls, but since they don't use a spellbook they can't make room for new spells. And they'd need the proper amount of Int for whatever spell they were casting (9 up to 4th, 10-11 5th, 12-13 6th, 14-15 7th, 16-17 8th, 18-19 9th), just like mages.
I'm playing a dragon disciple now. He's at level 9, and about to return to BG for the final chapter. Overall, I found the class to be a lot of fun to play. (My favourite classes are the avenger and blade, so I'm not exactly a power gamer.)
Sure the DD loses 1 spell/day/level, but if you aren't playing solo, and happy to rest regularly, then I don't see what the big deal is.
On the other hand, the DD has a good AC (built in, stacking bonus) and good hit points, and so does not need to run away from melee all the time.
Especially helpful, the DD can have a constitution of 20 by level 5 (constitution bonus + tome). Once the DD has a 20 CON, slow regeneration kicks in, thus reducing the need for healing spells, potions, etc.
The breath weapon is fun, especially when combined with boots of speed (zip into melee, breath fire, zip out again).
So, overall, I find the dragon discipline to be a pretty flavourful, fun class. Even if it is 'weaker' than the sorcerer, it's not a 'weak' class overall (at least not in BG1).
In the @ZanathKariashi idea of make BG kitless, i'm half favorable for it. Kits should be hard earned rewards (or consequences of certain behavior with an specific class), not something for person that spend his entire live among books and has barely no experience (has 0 in fact) should have.
I'm currently soloing with DD. The PC is at level 8 and I'm in Cloakwood Mines. It has been fun and I don't see issue having 1 spell per day less. I use scrolls and wands quite a lot. Actually this is my first play-through when I actually need all the money that I collect. I have bought scrolls, healing potions and expensive equipment (Robe of Good Archimage and Dagger of Venom). Dagger of Venom is really powerful with solo mage. You hit until you poison the enemy and runaway until the enemy dies (easy to runaway now that I got Boots of Speed from Cloakwood). Of course that's not what I always do, but if you want to save your spells for stronger opponents when you are in dungeons for example, Dagger of Venom is the answer. Also with Ring of Wizardry you double your first level spells and first level spells are very powerful in BG1 (Chromatic Orb stunning the opponent and obviously Magic Missile). Breath is also very powerful in BG1 and excellent when soloing. AC bonus and Breath are enough to make solo DD better than solo Sorcerer in BG1. 1 spell per day less is a minor disadvantage, but easily compensated with scrolls.
Felt like reviving this thread. Personally I enjoy the DD, but I agree more needs to be done to make it somewhat more appealing. Even (and I think I mentioned this elsewhere) immunity to knockback (from dragons) would be a nice touch.
If kits are to be more powerful versions of the original class, what's the point of the original class?
Kits are not meant to be "more powerful" than their base class. They exist as a variation of base class for variety and RP flavor. They almost universally come with advantages and DISADVANTAGES compared to their base class. It's the disadvantages people often overlook or can be inconsequential due to how the mechanics translate into a video game. In P&P DM's make sure disadvantages MEAN something in the greater context of the story the players are engaged in.
And some like the berserker are just so brokenly wrong, it's ridiculous. (and I've almost nailed down every effect needed to make them work 100% PnP accurate).
One of the easiest nerfs would be to simply limit all fighter kits to specialization (**) only...as per PnP. While the kits having largely wrong benefits would still need work, it would at least give plain fighters their one and only benefit over other classes (+3 damage, +1 hit, and +1/2 extra attack..the last one being the most powerful benefit).
I think DD would be much more fun if they got bonuses for Con over 16. Its not hard to get 16 con and all the other desirable stats for sorc with a minute or so of rerolling, so the con bonus basically just gives you 2 stats that do essentially nothing. I supposes at best you could start with 14 con and put the other 2 stats in Charisma or something, but charisma is pretty pointless.
Specialization to fighter kits would equal them to paladin and ranger kits. No i don't agree with a ** maximum proficience for fighter kits, but some of them (berserker for example) could be limited to mastery instead of grand mastery.
Then they also need to remove all other benefits from their kits. Going beyond specialization is all a plain fighter gets, that's it.... Complete fighter and Combat and Tactics both say that *** and beyond is only available to truly dedicated fighters, which excludes kits due to specializing in other areas of play, (and technically recommends requiring a minimum of level 10+ fighter to place additional points after **, by the rules as mentioned in the book).
Kits get additional abilities, THAT is their enhanced specialization. Of course, you could also nerf rangers/paladin and MC-fighters to only receive Expertise, instead of specialization, which would help nicely since they aren't supposed to get true specialization anyway.
What paladin and rangers get doesn't matter to this discussion, at ALL, they're a completely separate class, and have no barring on what abilities a fighter kit vs a plain fighter gets.
Comments
Thou A) also Sorcerer can reach 100+ fire resistance and
Now, let's suppose you take a maxed Fireball in the face on purpose. It should inflict you 30 damage if you fail your save vs spell. But since you have 127 f.r. you will instead heal 30/100*27 = 8.1 hp.
So I would say that a normal Healing Potion would be better, 99% of the times.
A cool combo I use with my Sorc, after reaching more than 100 f.r., is to load a Chain Contingecy on enemy sight with 3 Incendiary Clouds, target: me.
When it triggers, all the 3 of them will bypass magic resistance since I was the target (just like Sunfire) and they also heal me. But hey, you don't have to be a Dragon Disciple for this trick.
Let's play with fire a little bit more:
If you cast a Sunfire while you have a Ring of Fire Protection equipped, the spell will set your base f.r. to 100 + 40 from the ring = 127. It means you get healed by the Sunfire.
Sunfire gives this 100 f.r. for 3 seconds, if you cast Contingency, Spell Trigger, Chain Contingency, etc with the right timing you can make good combos.
Another trick: a Red Dragon is going to incinerate you with its fire breath? Sunfire. And so on...
With Tunic of Vecna + Amulet of Power it has 0 casting time.
@FinneusPJ I don't know, ask it to the inventors of Cleric kits
And btw, have you seen someone playing with normal Thief, Bard, Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Monk, etc?
On the other hand, I still see people using unkitted Sorcerer.
I like doing limited rest runs soo ohhboy that tactic brb burning folk
A max level Fireball doing max damage on a failed s-t would be unlikely.
But 9.45 is still inferior to an Elixir of Life haha
Make GM a single class, kitless fighter exclusive ability (as per PnP), no further specialization at all for fighter>X duals (as per PnP, and BG1 (vanilla)), and limited to ** for X>Fighter duals (as per PnP).
the ability to dual into a kit, if you don't have one yet (as per PnP, limit of 1 per character).
Proper dual-classing (One of each pool, that you meet the requirements for) and any classes can dual, as long as you meet the requirements and they don't specifically say otherwise.
Add the missing multiclasse combos.
Rebalancing kits to bring them in line with their PnP stats (or if they don't fit well within the game, then don't implement them at all, rather then making crap up), and if new ones are added, adding them from 2nd edition kits, not 3rd edition.
And actually adding some mage kits to the game. Specialists are NOT kits..not even the wild mage is a kit. The closest thing to a mage kit is the sorcerer.
Proper bonuses/penalties for mage specialization, including proper opposed schools. Add the shadow magic line of spells and some of the missing illusion spells.
Give stats ALL of their proper full benefits.
Nerf the hell out of negative plane protection the spell. Remove negative plane protection from items.
Make charm spells render the target friendly to the party (giving a large reaction bonus while active and negating hostility once it wears off), but without the full blown domination treatment.
Though I still like the idea because it would create an all new feeling of progression it is better suited for another game.
I would love to see stats giving bonuses to appropriate saving throws. Like high dexterity gives bonus to save vs spells when hit by an energy discharge attack like lightning bolt. And high wisdom giving bonus when hit by a mind-influencing spell like charm, hold, etc.
Regarding the original debate, I would not try a sorcerer now there is DD around. Special abilities look cool and make for good rp'ing. Sorcerers have too many spells castable/day anyway.
They had a crap ton daily spells (12 up to 10th, 6 11th, 3 12th at lvl 20), were limited in capacity only by their intelligence (19+ had no limits for known spells (Only applied to sorcerers, mages used spellbooks and could have as many as they wanted, but needed the specific books on hand to memorize the spells they contained), but they still had to have the proper amount of Int to cast the spells. 20-21 for 10th, 22-23 for 11th, and 24-25 for 12th) and were superior to mages in every possible way (mages gained spell levels 1 level slower, and generally only got 3/4 the casting capacity, and had to memorize individual spells and maintain spells books rather then knowing all their spells), except they couldn't dual-class or specialize as their only disadvantages and being Human Only.
The proto-modern sorcerer (It had a section for adapting the kit to Post-Folly) is similar to the BG one, except it uses Int as a prime stat, and they only learned 1 spell automatically at each new spell level, the rested had to be learned from scrolls, up to their maximum, which was 3 per spell level, plus up to 4 more for high int (+1 each for 15, 16, 17 and 18 int). So...they'd actually be a bit more powerful in some regards....since they could max out their spell level as soon as they opened it up if they had the scrolls, but since they don't use a spellbook they can't make room for new spells. And they'd need the proper amount of Int for whatever spell they were casting (9 up to 4th, 10-11 5th, 12-13 6th, 14-15 7th, 16-17 8th, 18-19 9th), just like mages.
Sure the DD loses 1 spell/day/level, but if you aren't playing solo, and happy to rest regularly, then I don't see what the big deal is.
On the other hand, the DD has a good AC (built in, stacking bonus) and good hit points, and so does not need to run away from melee all the time.
Especially helpful, the DD can have a constitution of 20 by level 5 (constitution bonus + tome). Once the DD has a 20 CON, slow regeneration kicks in, thus reducing the need for healing spells, potions, etc.
The breath weapon is fun, especially when combined with boots of speed (zip into melee, breath fire, zip out again).
So, overall, I find the dragon discipline to be a pretty flavourful, fun class. Even if it is 'weaker' than the sorcerer, it's not a 'weak' class overall (at least not in BG1).
One of the easiest nerfs would be to simply limit all fighter kits to specialization (**) only...as per PnP. While the kits having largely wrong benefits would still need work, it would at least give plain fighters their one and only benefit over other classes (+3 damage, +1 hit, and +1/2 extra attack..the last one being the most powerful benefit).
Kits get additional abilities, THAT is their enhanced specialization. Of course, you could also nerf rangers/paladin and MC-fighters to only receive Expertise, instead of specialization, which would help nicely since they aren't supposed to get true specialization anyway.
What paladin and rangers get doesn't matter to this discussion, at ALL, they're a completely separate class, and have no barring on what abilities a fighter kit vs a plain fighter gets.