What paladin and rangers get doesn't matter to this discussion, at ALL, they're a completely separate class, and have no barring on what abilities a fighter kit vs a plain fighter gets.
... Serious @Zanathkariashi? We're speaking of balance here, if you (or the OP) select what can be used in the equation, how would we reach a balance between the classes and between the vanilla class and it's kits? Don't you agree that this kind of statement leads to innacurate results and it's a bit of fallacious?
So you're saying Kensai shouldn't get Grand Mastery? That makes zero sense in terms of lore. And Wizard Slayer shouldn't get Grand Mastery? That makes zero sense in terms of game balance. The real issue is the Berserker. I agree they should be limited to Mastery.
Because classes are NOT balanced against each other, they never have been. The only thing that matters is whether the kit is superior (or grossly weaker) to the plain version of the class or not. If it is, then it needs rebalancing.
Berserker is so utterly broken it's not even funny. So broken, it should've never made it out into the final release.
Kensai are somewhat correct, though they're not supposed to be able to go beyond specialization, save 1 specialized melee weapon that they get a 3rd point in (totally of ***), and that weapon type is required for their damage/hit/Kai bonuses to apply. They're also supposed to be able to wear bracers and are allowed to use any thrown weapons that also have a melee component, though their extra damage/hit/kai only applies to melee hits. Their only restrictions are wearing any armor negates all their bonuses, they can't use ranged weapons that don't have a melee component, and they can't go beyond specialization.
Wizard Slayer is the other direction and so pitifully weak there's no incentive to play one.
All the cleric kits are garbage (they're completely superior to the plain cleric with no downsides)
The bard kits can use wands and cast from scrolls, get lore bonuses, and bunch of other stuff they shouldn't have.
Mages don't have any kits.
Paladin kits - (Pretty much all of them lose spellcasting and extra abilities....though the Cavalier is actually in constant danger of falling due to the stipulations of how the character MUST act)
Cavalier is just supposed to be immune to fear and charm and get bonuses for mounted combat. They're also REALLY vain and will only wear plate or full plate armor, regardless of whether other suits have better AC or benefits and lose all their bonus benefits if prevented from do so, since it's largely based on their massive ego. (the Cavalier is actually fighter kit, that paladins can take as well, and simply overlays over the base class).
Inquisitors are sort of correct, except they aren't immune to hold, just charm, and instead of truesight, have a passive chance to see through all illusions equal to 5% per level (to a maximum of 95%).
Undead hunters are pretty much Identical to inquisitors (including restrictions, aside from turning), Except they turn undead as a cleric of equal level, are immune to hold/paralyze, and gain uses of dispel every 4 levels, instead of 3.
Totemic druids are supposed to shapeshift into their spirit beasts (and they have to choose just one type to use as a totem spirit at creation, rather then getting the full range to choose from each time), rather then summoning them (and they don't get the ability until level 7), Avengers start with an extra weapon prof, but have a massive reaction penalty and stricter vows. The Shapeshifter can transform as much as they want into any natural creature (size/HD dependent on druid level) and can do so from level 1, but if they do it more then once per day per 6 levels, they have to save or become permanently stuck in that form, with a -1 penalty for each time beyond their limit they've transformed that day.
The thief kits. The bounty hunter is the only one that's close to being OP, and it's only because proper trap making isn't included (BH's just get a free point in trap making and can put points in it before level 10, unlike most other classes).
The assassin is a bit underpowered.....they really should've just removed the x7 BS benefit, and gave them more poison related abilities, like the actual PnP assassin (they're poison specialists, rather then sneak attackers, and are only supposed to suffer a 20 point penalty, rather then 15). Especially since by the time you get x6 or above BS, it's useless or not worth the effort anyway.
Rangers -
Archer is only supposed to apply to bows only, and it's supposed to cap at ***, not *****...also specialization has completely different rules for bows, which are ignored. Any class can make called shots, archers and blades just do so without the to-hit penalty. They're never supposed to receive ANY extra attacks from levels or specialization and are limited to being proficient in melee. They also lose their innate dual-wielding bonus (for the ranger version....the archer is actually a fighter kit that rangers can use). Their class benefit is 1 extra base attack when using bows, and 1 additional attack (total of 4 base) for spending a round preparing for rapid fire, which requires another round of preparation if they move more then simply turning in place. And all their benefits require armor with a base AC no greater then 6 or they stop functioning.
Stalkers are ok-ish.....though their BS should really just cap at 2 (technically they excel at surprise attacks and all attacks made during a surprise round deal an additional 1d6 damage...is what it should do), and they're supposed to get a free point in trap making. And they shouldn't have any mage spells...those make no sense at all....no idea why they gave them that....and obviously...they need armor no greater then 6 base AC for their surprise bonus to work and to be able to hide.
The Beast-master is actually pretty much correct...though they gave then higher level animal summons to simulate persistent animal companions, which a beast-master normally has an army of by lvl 10.
Seeing as the sorcerer is ridiculously OP anyway, I think I prefer a unique class that is closer to what could be considered balanced. If you only think about powergaming, why even have any melee classes in the game at all? Your new class-selection: Wild Mage or Sorcerer. Yay. Fun.
Because classes are NOT balanced against each other, they never have been. The only thing that matters is whether the kit is superior (or grossly weaker) to the plain version of the class or not. If it is, then it needs rebalancing.
Berserker is so utterly broken it's not even funny. So broken, it should've never made it out into the final release.
Kensai are somewhat correct, though they're not supposed to be able to go beyond specialization, save 1 specialized melee weapon that they get a 3rd point in (totally of ***), and that weapon type is required for their damage/hit/Kai bonuses to apply. They're also supposed to be able to wear bracers and are allowed to use any thrown weapons that also have a melee component, though their extra damage/hit/kai only applies to melee hits. Their only restrictions are wearing any armor negates all their bonuses, they can't use ranged weapons that don't have a melee component, and they can't go beyond specialization.
Wizard Slayer is the other direction and so pitifully weak there's no incentive to play one.
All the cleric kits are garbage (they're completely superior to the plain cleric with no downsides)
The bard kits can use wands and cast from scrolls, get lore bonuses, and bunch of other stuff they shouldn't have.
Mages don't have any kits.
Paladin kits - (Pretty much all of them lose spellcasting and extra abilities....though the Cavalier is actually in constant danger of falling due to the stipulations of how the character MUST act)
Cavalier is just supposed to be immune to fear and get bonuses for mounted combat. They're also REALLY vain and will only wear plate or full plate armor, regardless of whether other suits have better AC or benefits and lose all their bonus benefits if prevented from do so, since it's largely based on their massive ego. (the Cavalier is actually fighter kit, that paladins can take as well, and simply overlays over the base class).
Inquisitors are sort of correct, except they aren't immune to hold, just charm, and instead of truesight, have a passive chance to see through all illusions equal to 5% per level (to a maximum of 95%).
Undead hunters are pretty much Identical to inquisitors (including restrictions, aside from turning), Except they turn undead as a cleric of equal level, are immune to hold/paralyze, and gain uses of dispel every 4 levels, instead of 3.
Totemic druids are supposed to shapeshift into their spirit beasts (and they have to choose just one type to use as a totem spirit at creation, rather then getting the full range to choose from each time), rather then summoning them (and they don't get the ability until level 7), Avengers start with an extra weapon prof, but have a massive reaction penalty and stricter vows. The Shapeshifter can transform as much as they want into any natural creature (size/HD dependent on druid level) and can do so from level 1, but if they do it more then once per day per 6 levels, they have to save or become permanently stuck in that form, with a -1 penalty for each time beyond their limit they've transformed that day.
The thief kits. The bounty hunter is the only one that's close to being OP, and it's only because proper trap making isn't included (BH's just get a free point in trap making and can put points in it before level 10, unlike most other classes).
The assassin is a bit underpowered.....they really should've just removed the x7 BS benefit, and gave them more poison related abilities, like the actual PnP assassin (they're poison specialists, rather then sneak attackers, and are only supposed to suffer a 20 point penalty, rather then 15). Especially since by the time you get x6 or above BS, it's useless or not worth the effort anyway.
Rangers -
Archer is only supposed to apply to bows only, and it's supposed to cap at ***, not *****...also specialization has completely different rules for bows, which are ignored. Any class can make called shots, archers and blades just do so without the to-hit penalty. They're never supposed to receive ANY extra attacks from levels or specialization and are limited to being proficient in melee. They also lose their innate dual-wielding bonus (for the ranger version....the archer is actually a fighter kit that rangers can use). Their class benefit is 1 extra base attack when using bows, and 1 additional attack (total of 4 base) for spending a round preparing for rapid fire, which requires another round of preparation if they move more then simply turning in place. And all their benefits require armor with a base AC no greater then 6 or they stop functioning.
Stalkers are ok-ish.....though their BS should really just cap at 2 (technically they excel at surprise attacks and all attacks made during a surprise round deal an additional 1d6 damage...is what it should do), and they're supposed to get a free point in trap making. And they shouldn't have any mage spells...those make no sense at all....no idea why they gave them that....and obviously...they need armor no greater then 6 base AC for their surprise bonus to work and to be able to hide.
The Beast-master is actually pretty much correct...though they gave then higher level animal summons to simulate persistent animal companions, which a beast-master normally has an army of by lvl 10.
Sorry to participate in the derailment of this thread but I had to comment. The Kensai, the sword-saint, the guy who gives up ranged weaponry and armor to hone his skill in one weapon, who dedicates his life to become the most bad ass at one specific type of weapon...he doesn't progress beyond weapon specialization?? I don't care what the players handbook says...that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Back on topic, I was going to wait for the patch to come out before trying DD, I was counting the days till I could play him but then this Atari crap happened. My OCD isn't allowing me to say "screw it" and play him anyway.
They can become masters of a weapon type (the type they master the combat style of and get the 3rd point in)....where as all other melee based fighter kits can only specialize, THAT is their benefit.
@OurQuestIsVain Because you're blind. A Kensai is better using their mastered weapon then any other class, their "GM" is basically built into their class features, trading +1/2 extra attack for 4x the amount of hit/damage you'd get by going to GM from Mastery. Kensai are hit/fade fighters...they focus higher damage into fewer attacks so they can keep on the move. And they receive their Mastery point at creation, in their chosen weapon, while a fighter can't place a 3rd point till at least level 4.
Remove the restriction on bracers, since they are supposed to wear bracers, and then they can equip the bracers of PWNage, or bracers of AC (like the kit description in the book actually suggests doing, since the magical fields the bracers generate is non-encumbering, same reason mages can wear them, but cost a HELL of a lot more, vs the protection they provide). Having Mastery, while all other kits are limited to Specialization gives them a slight bonus over other kits, and their hit/damage/speed/kai bonuses make them infinitely better then even a GM Fighter can be....who needs armor when you kill everything in 1-2 hits anyway, but unlike the kensai, who is wholly focused on 1 weapon type (grossly outdamaging even a GM'd fighter in that one type), the fighter can achieve great results in all weapons and has more relax restrictions and isn't in danger of being ganked to death due better armor ratings. But that said....GM is ALL the plain fighter gets....just that...no other abilities...a berserker is functionally identical to a fighter (their only restriction aside from just being specialized is that they can't place points in ranged weapons at creation, nor can they use them while raging), except instead of GM they get their rage abilities that makes them immune to a handful of effects (sleep, charm/dom, Command), resistant to others (+4 Hold, paralyze saves, and blocks 1 failed fear save but ends the rage), boosts damage, but has a small chance of going truly berserk each round they're enrage, can't benefit from healing while raging, but also doesn't have to save against instant-death effects until the rage ends at which point they make any saves they put off, and then any healing is applied if they're still alive). (And even if you consider bracers of AC 3, they still lack the extra AC bonuses that true platemail has)
Getting GM completely makes a fighter obsolete, because then the Kensai is better in every way...even the current Kensai is better then a plain fighter, despite the extra restriction against bracers, due to their ludicrous damage and hit, since they can kill any enemy in literally 1 round, or 2 for bosses. Until level 3 a fighter has a slight advantage...after that the Kensai wins. The fact that the Kensai's bonus applies to ALL weapons currently, is reason enough to ban them from going beyond specialization. It's only supposed to apply to just their mastered weapon type.
Why is this hard to understand? If any other fighter kit can GM, the vanilla fighter is functionally useless (and no....loss of armor is not a restriction, the loss of GM is what the Kensai is REALLY losing to compensate for their massive damage/hit in a single focused weapon type....armor is largely pointless, especially since the kensai is a hit/fade fighter like BSing Thieves are....they move in and strike, either killing a foe outright, or zipping away to avoid reprisal and coming back for a new strike, which due to their extreme weapon speed bonus is almost guaranteed to land first).
And yes the wizard slayer is grossly under powered. They're supposed to lose ALL magical items, including armor and weapons, and even healing potions and spells are only 50% effective on them. But on the other hand, they get an innate chance to dispel magic effects on hit (caster level equal to class level), gain natural magic resistance (but can't lower it, so even beneficial spells can be blocked), force casters save or suffer a 25% chance of spell failure for 5 rounds, as they grow in level their weapons can begin to by-pass to-hit requirements (only applies to +X requirements or being considered magical, requirements for specific non-magical materials like silver or cold iron still require a silver or cold iron weapon) and ignore protections against normal/magical weapons and their anti-magic channels into any armor or shield they're wielding, giving them up to a total of +10 to all saves (+5 each from armor and shield), resulting from magical effects. And at very high levels (12+), can generate a 10ft wide anti-magic aura once per day for 1 round per level (mechanically similar to the paladin's anti-evil magic aura when wielding a holy sword).
I do agree that the current wizard slayer is probably balanced due to getting nothing and losing nearly everything...but if done properly, then no, they shouldn't get past specialization (due to their specialized anti-magic training precluding further focus on weapon training).
I wouldn't say completely off topic, it has moved away from issues between Sorcerer and it's kit, but still thematically on topic, since it's an important thing to consider that a kit should not better then the original. At the moment (assuming it's bugs were fixed) the DD is better then sorcerer, flat out.......if it was limited to say, 3 known spells per level up to 7th and 2 for 8th and 9th, and only getting the Dragon's Breath HLA for 10th (hell, just not giving them any HLA at all, and simply adding Dragon's Breath at 18th level), it would be a tad more balanced, imo (keeping the other restrictions).
Do you intent to us understand @ZanathKariashi or to submit to your understand of the class and kit? Is @Ourquestisvain blind or he just disagree with your opinion (as i do)? Maybe i'm wrong but aren't you defending the point atm out of belief? Just in reason you raised it at first?
I don't see why class advantages should be argued to justify disadvantages unrelated to the class, stated as "sword saint". From D&D lore point of view, kensai warriors should reach a 6 proficience slot, if this was possible, in fact (with their weapon of choice) and not to have reduction in their weapon proficiences.
If class advantages should justify uncoherent disadvantages Inquisitor's (paladin) thac0 would have to use mages evolution table to compensate his advantages.
Kensai can't use armor, gaunlets and missile weapons, i see that as disadvantage enough. In Baldur's Gate his +1 to hit/damage x 3 levels isn't even worth, as we have now 2 gaunlets of extra weapon skill +1 thaco/+2 damage (that a kensai can't use).
Berserkers are a lot more unbalaced in my opinion, and berserker rage should make them uncontrolable (yellow circle) often, thus attacking friends and enemies, whoever is near.
You all are so blinded by wanting a bunch of overpowered garbage, you can't even properly process what is imbalanced and isn't unless it's something ridiculously blatant like the berserker, which even that has proponents coming out of the wood work to protect. R/C's issues as well. And F/D being able to wear armor greater then leather (ALL of their equipment restrictions are because of their druidic vows, not lack of training).
A kensai IS the best at what they do....THEY ARE a sword saint, if properly implemented, at creation they would be better then any other class at their weapon of choice, and that distinction would only grow over time. The lack of bracers is wrong, and should be removed, since their only real restriction regarding any armor, is that wearing body armor prevents them from moving as freely as they need to strike efficiently (thus removing their hit/damage/kai/AC bonuses due to their combat style being based on freedom of movement and precise strikes). They are not fighters, they are surgeons of the battlefield, dancing wistfully between blades and arrows and with lightning speed slipping their blades through even the most tiny imperfections of an opponents guard and moving away before they can land a strike in response......it's WHY they don't wear armor in the first place. Hell the in-game description states as much and the actual Complete Fighter is much more specific about how their combat style works (technically they also have the ability to, if devoting themselves fully to movement in a combat round, to make a single strike at one enemy who comes within melee range along the path of movement, which is normally reserved for mounted characters).
How things currently are.
Kensai = GM (+3 hit, +5 damage, +1 attack), Class = +13 hit/damage, +1 attack from 13+. Total +16 hit, +18 damage, +2 attacks.
I rest my case for why Kensai don't need higher then Specialization, even with current restrictions. Even under IH, the Kensai still wins per round and even more so, due to IH allowing them stack it with Kai, eliminating damage variance at all.
Oh but if you dual-class at 13, the fighter is a little better......OH but you HAVE to dual-class, otherwise the fighter obsolete, which means the kit is too powerful.
Yeah, F'd up, it's from the 2nd Edition Oriental Adventures guide (I have them all collected into one big guide pack for ease of use and quick reference and didn't notice it was jumping to the OA section).
Hmm....though....according to the book, they aren't supposed to be able to specialize at all....they get specialization in one weapon, instead of mastery (though I assume it's because the book uses standard specialization, rather then the C&T version...since no one goes above specialized and only a handful are able to specialize at all, and only in specific weapons). And all their class benefits come fully by level 12. (Max of +5 hit/damage/initiative at 12. But also at 12, gain the ability to make a whirlwind attack once per day, allowing them to make up to 10 attack for 1 round, distributed as they wish among any targets in range, but consumes all their remaining Ki power (which is required for their Kai ability as well, and in addition to Kai, at 6+ can expend a Ki point to force a target to run in fear for several rounds just by glaring at them (20ft range), though targets with equal or higher HD then the Kensai get a save), but gives them a +1 damage bonus for each additional Ki used (above 1) to all attacks in the round (they have 1 Ki point per level to use each day), so a lvl 20 kensai with full Ki power, using their WWA would deal 19 additional damage on each attack during that round.
And they're supposed to be immune to fear, get +1 all saves, and their AC bonus is supposed to be 1 better at creation, and then an additional +1 per 3 levels (Maximum of +5 at lvl 12) (but only functions while they have at least one 1 point of Ki power available) and all their class benefits aside from the save bonus and fear immunity require them to be unarmored (but protection from magical spells or magical bracers is allowed).
I see i never thought that kensai was an oriental kit. I made a quick research on this oriental handbook and i found it listed at WotC as 3° edition book.
In 3.5Ed kits become base classes (for warriors exist Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler (yes, it's a warrior class in vanilla, not a thief kit) and variant classes of paladins and rangers without spellcast abilities. Prestige classes become evolutions for base classes, so in 3.5 Ed a fighter or a fighter alike class (vanilla fighter, hexblade, samurai, swashbuckler...) can become Kensais. But in AD&D system the vanilla class system doesn't exist, thus to add kensai as kit they did, the devs had to adapt it to AD&D.
In 3.5Ed only vanilla warriors can pass beyond weapon specialization however kensai class was meant to be an prestige class, not a common class, so in AD&D (by the complete fighter handbook) this feature isn't implemented. Officialy the adapted kensai is pretty ok by the rules, both Kensai and Berserker (frenzied Berserker in 3.5Ed) are prestige classes in origins (but berserkers existed in AD&D but are worked a bit different).
If the engine allows, the grand mastery should be achieved only in one kind of weapon (the one he pass in proficience with *** or more first preferably), otherwise it's ok how it's done atm, cos we don't have any vanilla restrictions for Kensai in AD&D to affirmate that it's against rules. If you think kensai strong in BG, know that kensai's can make they weapons work as +10 weapons by 3.5Ed rules (literally).
Now about berserkers. By reading the AD&D Complete fighter Handbook, i saw many limitations in Berserker that aren't applied in BG, even when the engine allow it. I understand some of them as they would make berserker characters to die often (thus making game over frequently if main char berserker die).
First, berserkers are completly out of control in berserker rage (should be in yellow circlet the entire time they enter a fight while berserked), the hit points of the character should become invisible and they should become immune to healing spells (any healing spell). By another side, bersekerd fighters can't die until the berserker state end.
You have to search for Oriental Adventures AD&D for the 2nd edition version. Should be the 2nd or third option via google, just make sure it doesn't say first edition...that version of the book is just plain weird. It's in the class section immediately following the Bushi (page 26).
It's followed immediately by the Monk, who is basically very similar to the BG monk, but also gains automatic skill points in Open locks, disarm traps, hide, move silently, climb walls, all capping eventually at 99, between lvls 12-17. (and their fists hit as if +4 at lvl 17, which is their absolute maximum level, regardless of the campaigns level cap (specifically mentioned in the entry, as a monk that chooses to go beyond 17 ascends to a higher plane of existence and is no longer playable)). They're also forbidden from using ANY magical items, unless the item is specifically available to monks.
3rd edition did away with the Kensai completely and changed it into the Weapon Master (which is functionally identical to a kensai, except they can wear armor).
Considering that in 3rd edition, a lvl 20 mage will have roughly 2x the hp of a 2nd edition lvl 20 fighter .....yeah...damage bonuses tend to be ridiculous throughout 3rd edition (and yet most mage spells are still capped at their old 2nd edition limits).
And no, the 3.5 edition's Kensai cannot deal +10 damage. The maximum enhancement bonus for any property is +5, to a total of 10 for that ability. It can simple have a total of +10 enhancement levels. So they could make their chosen weapon +2 enhancement (+2 hit/damage), Ghost touch (+1) Fiery (+1), Keen (+1), Vorpal (+5) Or +5 enhancement and Vorpal. Or +4 enhancement, Speed (+3), Keen (+1), Thundering (+2).
And the Samurai (later in the book) gets the same ability to imbue their Daisho that the Kensai does.....they're pretty much identical classes, just with slightly different gained abilities as they level.
But this book doesn't meant that Kensai can't go past specialization, things work a bit different there (a lot of oriental only features).
Kensai start with one automatic proficience point in his weapon of choice and can distribute other three points, however during character creation he can't go over specialization **, in fact all fighter kinds (even vanilla) in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition have this same restriction at character creation, BG2 make characters of lvl 8 (or 7, i don't remember atm), thus you can go for 5 proficience points there from the start if you want.
Except, that it says specifically in Combat and Tactics, which is where the GM chart comes from, ONLY A SINGLE CLASS, KITLESS FIGHTER can achieve Mastery or beyond (and is supposed to require a minimum of lvl 10+ to place the 3rd point in a weapon, which means you shouldn't even be able to achieve GM until level 16 at the earliest). Paladin, rangers, and MC-fighters get expertise (+1 hit/+1 damage), fighter kits get specialization (+1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack), and true fighters can go beyond.
(Kensai pick their weapon at creation, and then spend one of 3 starting profs to bring it up to specialized, since they get a free point in it to begin with. Their 2nd prof can be spent on a weapon but they can no longer specialize, and the 3rd prof must be spent on non-combat skills.
No where in the book does it ever mention ANYONE exceeding specialization. Because they get a bunch of extra abilities to go along with it. Which goes back to my main point......plain fighters ONLY get GM....that is all they get, and the fact they can get +2 hit, +3 damage, and +1/2 attacks over all other fighter kits is their one and only perk.
Archers can achieve Mastery in bows, because specialization works differently for bows/x-bows (and they sacrifice their extra generic attacks from warrior levels for extra attacks that can effect bows (which normally don't benefit from extra attacks) as well as the ability to specialize in melee weapons). ** removes the to-hit penalty for firing in close quarters and increases damage of close range shots by +1, and *** allows you to shoot 1 range increment further without penalty, and attackers no longer get a bonus when attempting to strike you in melee while wielding a bow/x-bow....that's all it does....no bonus hit, not blanket bonus damage, no extra attacks (which bows and x-bows don't even benefit from attacks gained from warrior levels either). Mastery (***) is as high as bows go, even on plain fighters, because there is no benefit for putting additional points.
Back on topic, I was going to wait for the patch to come out before trying DD, I was counting the days till I could play him but then this Atari crap happened. My OCD isn't allowing me to say "screw it" and play him anyway.
I can't comment on your particular situation but to anyone who doesn't have OCD I would just say try it out if you want.
I did and I've enjoyed it. I did it for more RP reasons. Lots and lots of fire spells
@ZanathKariashi, In nowhere on this book this is stated, the page 51 of the book, that's related to proficience points doesn't make any mention for it also. By the way, in the table 57, you can see a huge difference from normal books to this oriental book, there are a HUGE amount of weapons and even the fighter/mage alike classes get weapon proficience at each 3 levels.
In page 51, in the weapon specialization, there's a passage that says "this dedication is not as a fierce as the kensai's..."
As you said, the book doesn't even mention pass specialization, by that statement you see that the system there is different or just omissive.
To take omissions as stated rules is insensate is unwise, and nowhere in the book is mentioned that you need to be a kitless fighter to have ***** proficience slots.
You all are so blinded by wanting a bunch of overpowered garbage, you can't even properly process what is imbalanced and isn't unless it's something ridiculously blatant like the berserker, which even that has proponents coming out of the wood work to protect.
Cripes, calm down. I appreciate your passion but you're going into ad hominem territory.
Because it doesn't mention using the expanded chart, that means it also doesn't contradict the C&T book rules, which are pretty clear that only plain fighters can achieve mastery or beyond....
Mastery (***) isn't 100% excluded as written, but it does recommend strongly that the DM not allow fighter kits to achieve Mastery because they've already been compensated enough by gaining additional abilities, unless they're giving up a LOT of benefits AND have no combat related bonuses as kit features, and no fighter period should have it prior to at least level 10.
High Mastery and Grand Mastery specifically state that only a single class plain fighter is EVER allowed to achieve them.
This thread has gone way off topic. The original post was asking about sorcerers and dragon disciples, and has nothing to do with the core AD&D rules, kensai, berserkers, or third edition rules.
This thread has gone way off topic. The original post was asking about sorcerers and dragon disciples, and has nothing to do with the core AD&D rules, kensai, berserkers, or third edition rules.
Stay on topic, folks.
Why is it so wrong that a thread would derail into a good conversation? It's not like both sides are insulting each other over ice cream flavour.
@Vishnu I guess maybe out of respect for the OP who will continue to get off topic notifications, or maybe just that the thread title no longer categorises the actual content. Who doesn't love a good derailment though.
well i would have no qualms in open this thread and find so much insightgful info about kensais ! Specially cos the thread is already exausted and the owner doesn't even come back here anymore. But the discussion for kensai also had it's end too, so let's put this issue aside.
Two days ago @Aron740 posted about it going off-topic. That's enough for me.
Stick to sorcerers and dragon disciples, or start a new thread. Any other off-topic posts here will be deleted as spam. This isn't a difficult concept.
Comments
WS only is strong vs magic, but when not against it is worse than a standerd fighter
Kensai does hell damage, but is really squishy.
Berserker is so utterly broken it's not even funny. So broken, it should've never made it out into the final release.
Kensai are somewhat correct, though they're not supposed to be able to go beyond specialization, save 1 specialized melee weapon that they get a 3rd point in (totally of ***), and that weapon type is required for their damage/hit/Kai bonuses to apply. They're also supposed to be able to wear bracers and are allowed to use any thrown weapons that also have a melee component, though their extra damage/hit/kai only applies to melee hits. Their only restrictions are wearing any armor negates all their bonuses, they can't use ranged weapons that don't have a melee component, and they can't go beyond specialization.
Wizard Slayer is the other direction and so pitifully weak there's no incentive to play one.
All the cleric kits are garbage (they're completely superior to the plain cleric with no downsides)
The bard kits can use wands and cast from scrolls, get lore bonuses, and bunch of other stuff they shouldn't have.
Mages don't have any kits.
Paladin kits - (Pretty much all of them lose spellcasting and extra abilities....though the Cavalier is actually in constant danger of falling due to the stipulations of how the character MUST act)
Cavalier is just supposed to be immune to fear and charm and get bonuses for mounted combat. They're also REALLY vain and will only wear plate or full plate armor, regardless of whether other suits have better AC or benefits and lose all their bonus benefits if prevented from do so, since it's largely based on their massive ego. (the Cavalier is actually fighter kit, that paladins can take as well, and simply overlays over the base class).
Inquisitors are sort of correct, except they aren't immune to hold, just charm, and instead of truesight, have a passive chance to see through all illusions equal to 5% per level (to a maximum of 95%).
Undead hunters are pretty much Identical to inquisitors (including restrictions, aside from turning), Except they turn undead as a cleric of equal level, are immune to hold/paralyze, and gain uses of dispel every 4 levels, instead of 3.
Totemic druids are supposed to shapeshift into their spirit beasts (and they have to choose just one type to use as a totem spirit at creation, rather then getting the full range to choose from each time), rather then summoning them (and they don't get the ability until level 7), Avengers start with an extra weapon prof, but have a massive reaction penalty and stricter vows. The Shapeshifter can transform as much as they want into any natural creature (size/HD dependent on druid level) and can do so from level 1, but if they do it more then once per day per 6 levels, they have to save or become permanently stuck in that form, with a -1 penalty for each time beyond their limit they've transformed that day.
The thief kits. The bounty hunter is the only one that's close to being OP, and it's only because proper trap making isn't included (BH's just get a free point in trap making and can put points in it before level 10, unlike most other classes).
The assassin is a bit underpowered.....they really should've just removed the x7 BS benefit, and gave them more poison related abilities, like the actual PnP assassin (they're poison specialists, rather then sneak attackers, and are only supposed to suffer a 20 point penalty, rather then 15). Especially since by the time you get x6 or above BS, it's useless or not worth the effort anyway.
Rangers -
Archer is only supposed to apply to bows only, and it's supposed to cap at ***, not *****...also specialization has completely different rules for bows, which are ignored. Any class can make called shots, archers and blades just do so without the to-hit penalty. They're never supposed to receive ANY extra attacks from levels or specialization and are limited to being proficient in melee. They also lose their innate dual-wielding bonus (for the ranger version....the archer is actually a fighter kit that rangers can use). Their class benefit is 1 extra base attack when using bows, and 1 additional attack (total of 4 base) for spending a round preparing for rapid fire, which requires another round of preparation if they move more then simply turning in place. And all their benefits require armor with a base AC no greater then 6 or they stop functioning.
Stalkers are ok-ish.....though their BS should really just cap at 2 (technically they excel at surprise attacks and all attacks made during a surprise round deal an additional 1d6 damage...is what it should do), and they're supposed to get a free point in trap making. And they shouldn't have any mage spells...those make no sense at all....no idea why they gave them that....and obviously...they need armor no greater then 6 base AC for their surprise bonus to work and to be able to hide.
The Beast-master is actually pretty much correct...though they gave then higher level animal summons to simulate persistent animal companions, which a beast-master normally has an army of by lvl 10.
Your new class-selection: Wild Mage or Sorcerer. Yay. Fun.
Back on topic, I was going to wait for the patch to come out before trying DD, I was counting the days till I could play him but then this Atari crap happened. My OCD isn't allowing me to say "screw it" and play him anyway.
@OurQuestIsVain
Because you're blind. A Kensai is better using their mastered weapon then any other class, their "GM" is basically built into their class features, trading +1/2 extra attack for 4x the amount of hit/damage you'd get by going to GM from Mastery. Kensai are hit/fade fighters...they focus higher damage into fewer attacks so they can keep on the move. And they receive their Mastery point at creation, in their chosen weapon, while a fighter can't place a 3rd point till at least level 4.
Remove the restriction on bracers, since they are supposed to wear bracers, and then they can equip the bracers of PWNage, or bracers of AC (like the kit description in the book actually suggests doing, since the magical fields the bracers generate is non-encumbering, same reason mages can wear them, but cost a HELL of a lot more, vs the protection they provide). Having Mastery, while all other kits are limited to Specialization gives them a slight bonus over other kits, and their hit/damage/speed/kai bonuses make them infinitely better then even a GM Fighter can be....who needs armor when you kill everything in 1-2 hits anyway, but unlike the kensai, who is wholly focused on 1 weapon type (grossly outdamaging even a GM'd fighter in that one type), the fighter can achieve great results in all weapons and has more relax restrictions and isn't in danger of being ganked to death due better armor ratings. But that said....GM is ALL the plain fighter gets....just that...no other abilities...a berserker is functionally identical to a fighter (their only restriction aside from just being specialized is that they can't place points in ranged weapons at creation, nor can they use them while raging), except instead of GM they get their rage abilities that makes them immune to a handful of effects (sleep, charm/dom, Command), resistant to others (+4 Hold, paralyze saves, and blocks 1 failed fear save but ends the rage), boosts damage, but has a small chance of going truly berserk each round they're enrage, can't benefit from healing while raging, but also doesn't have to save against instant-death effects until the rage ends at which point they make any saves they put off, and then any healing is applied if they're still alive). (And even if you consider bracers of AC 3, they still lack the extra AC bonuses that true platemail has)
Getting GM completely makes a fighter obsolete, because then the Kensai is better in every way...even the current Kensai is better then a plain fighter, despite the extra restriction against bracers, due to their ludicrous damage and hit, since they can kill any enemy in literally 1 round, or 2 for bosses. Until level 3 a fighter has a slight advantage...after that the Kensai wins. The fact that the Kensai's bonus applies to ALL weapons currently, is reason enough to ban them from going beyond specialization. It's only supposed to apply to just their mastered weapon type.
Why is this hard to understand? If any other fighter kit can GM, the vanilla fighter is functionally useless (and no....loss of armor is not a restriction, the loss of GM is what the Kensai is REALLY losing to compensate for their massive damage/hit in a single focused weapon type....armor is largely pointless, especially since the kensai is a hit/fade fighter like BSing Thieves are....they move in and strike, either killing a foe outright, or zipping away to avoid reprisal and coming back for a new strike, which due to their extreme weapon speed bonus is almost guaranteed to land first).
And yes the wizard slayer is grossly under powered. They're supposed to lose ALL magical items, including armor and weapons, and even healing potions and spells are only 50% effective on them. But on the other hand, they get an innate chance to dispel magic effects on hit (caster level equal to class level), gain natural magic resistance (but can't lower it, so even beneficial spells can be blocked), force casters save or suffer a 25% chance of spell failure for 5 rounds, as they grow in level their weapons can begin to by-pass to-hit requirements (only applies to +X requirements or being considered magical, requirements for specific non-magical materials like silver or cold iron still require a silver or cold iron weapon) and ignore protections against normal/magical weapons and their anti-magic channels into any armor or shield they're wielding, giving them up to a total of +10 to all saves (+5 each from armor and shield), resulting from magical effects. And at very high levels (12+), can generate a 10ft wide anti-magic aura once per day for 1 round per level (mechanically similar to the paladin's anti-evil magic aura when wielding a holy sword).
I do agree that the current wizard slayer is probably balanced due to getting nothing and losing nearly everything...but if done properly, then no, they shouldn't get past specialization (due to their specialized anti-magic training precluding further focus on weapon training).
@Aron740
I wouldn't say completely off topic, it has moved away from issues between Sorcerer and it's kit, but still thematically on topic, since it's an important thing to consider that a kit should not better then the original. At the moment (assuming it's bugs were fixed) the DD is better then sorcerer, flat out.......if it was limited to say, 3 known spells per level up to 7th and 2 for 8th and 9th, and only getting the Dragon's Breath HLA for 10th (hell, just not giving them any HLA at all, and simply adding Dragon's Breath at 18th level), it would be a tad more balanced, imo (keeping the other restrictions).
I don't see why class advantages should be argued to justify disadvantages unrelated to the class, stated as "sword saint". From D&D lore point of view, kensai warriors should reach a 6 proficience slot, if this was possible, in fact (with their weapon of choice) and not to have reduction in their weapon proficiences.
If class advantages should justify uncoherent disadvantages Inquisitor's (paladin) thac0 would have to use mages evolution table to compensate his advantages.
Kensai can't use armor, gaunlets and missile weapons, i see that as disadvantage enough. In Baldur's Gate his +1 to hit/damage x 3 levels isn't even worth, as we have now 2 gaunlets of extra weapon skill +1 thaco/+2 damage (that a kensai can't use).
Berserkers are a lot more unbalaced in my opinion, and berserker rage should make them uncontrolable (yellow circle) often, thus attacking friends and enemies, whoever is near.
You all are so blinded by wanting a bunch of overpowered garbage, you can't even properly process what is imbalanced and isn't unless it's something ridiculously blatant like the berserker, which even that has proponents coming out of the wood work to protect. R/C's issues as well. And F/D being able to wear armor greater then leather (ALL of their equipment restrictions are because of their druidic vows, not lack of training).
A kensai IS the best at what they do....THEY ARE a sword saint, if properly implemented, at creation they would be better then any other class at their weapon of choice, and that distinction would only grow over time. The lack of bracers is wrong, and should be removed, since their only real restriction regarding any armor, is that wearing body armor prevents them from moving as freely as they need to strike efficiently (thus removing their hit/damage/kai/AC bonuses due to their combat style being based on freedom of movement and precise strikes). They are not fighters, they are surgeons of the battlefield, dancing wistfully between blades and arrows and with lightning speed slipping their blades through even the most tiny imperfections of an opponents guard and moving away before they can land a strike in response......it's WHY they don't wear armor in the first place. Hell the in-game description states as much and the actual Complete Fighter is much more specific about how their combat style works (technically they also have the ability to, if devoting themselves fully to movement in a combat round, to make a single strike at one enemy who comes within melee range along the path of movement, which is normally reserved for mounted characters).
How things currently are.
Kensai = GM (+3 hit, +5 damage, +1 attack), Class = +13 hit/damage, +1 attack from 13+. Total +16 hit, +18 damage, +2 attacks.
Fighter = GM (+3 hit, +5 damage, +1 attack), Class = nothing, +1 attack from 13+, +1 hit, +2 damage +1/2 attack from bracers. = +4 hit, +7 damage, +2.5 attacks.
I rest my case for why Kensai don't need higher then Specialization, even with current restrictions. Even under IH, the Kensai still wins per round and even more so, due to IH allowing them stack it with Kai, eliminating damage variance at all.
Oh but if you dual-class at 13, the fighter is a little better......OH but you HAVE to dual-class, otherwise the fighter obsolete, which means the kit is too powerful.
Hmm....though....according to the book, they aren't supposed to be able to specialize at all....they get specialization in one weapon, instead of mastery (though I assume it's because the book uses standard specialization, rather then the C&T version...since no one goes above specialized and only a handful are able to specialize at all, and only in specific weapons). And all their class benefits come fully by level 12. (Max of +5 hit/damage/initiative at 12. But also at 12, gain the ability to make a whirlwind attack once per day, allowing them to make up to 10 attack for 1 round, distributed as they wish among any targets in range, but consumes all their remaining Ki power (which is required for their Kai ability as well, and in addition to Kai, at 6+ can expend a Ki point to force a target to run in fear for several rounds just by glaring at them (20ft range), though targets with equal or higher HD then the Kensai get a save), but gives them a +1 damage bonus for each additional Ki used (above 1) to all attacks in the round (they have 1 Ki point per level to use each day), so a lvl 20 kensai with full Ki power, using their WWA would deal 19 additional damage on each attack during that round.
And they're supposed to be immune to fear, get +1 all saves, and their AC bonus is supposed to be 1 better at creation, and then an additional +1 per 3 levels (Maximum of +5 at lvl 12) (but only functions while they have at least one 1 point of Ki power available) and all their class benefits aside from the save bonus and fear immunity require them to be unarmored (but protection from magical spells or magical bracers is allowed).
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
I then found it in this link:
http://www.marph.org/D&D/D&D 3.5 - Oriental Adventures.pdf
But no kensai is mentioned on this book. Maybe in another version.
But before your answer i was making some research for Complete fighters handbooks and i found both the AD&D edition and the 3.5Ed edition.
AD&D complete fighter make no reference to Kensai.
(optional with pictures)
3.5Ed complete warrior does list Kensai as an prestige class from warrior.
In 3.5Ed kits become base classes (for warriors exist Hexblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler (yes, it's a warrior class in vanilla, not a thief kit) and variant classes of paladins and rangers without spellcast abilities. Prestige classes become evolutions for base classes, so in 3.5 Ed a fighter or a fighter alike class (vanilla fighter, hexblade, samurai, swashbuckler...) can become Kensais. But in AD&D system the vanilla class system doesn't exist, thus to add kensai as kit they did, the devs had to adapt it to AD&D.
In 3.5Ed only vanilla warriors can pass beyond weapon specialization however kensai class was meant to be an prestige class, not a common class, so in AD&D (by the complete fighter handbook) this feature isn't implemented. Officialy the adapted kensai is pretty ok by the rules, both Kensai and Berserker (frenzied Berserker in 3.5Ed) are prestige classes in origins (but berserkers existed in AD&D but are worked a bit different).
If the engine allows, the grand mastery should be achieved only in one kind of weapon (the one he pass in proficience with *** or more first preferably), otherwise it's ok how it's done atm, cos we don't have any vanilla restrictions for Kensai in AD&D to affirmate that it's against rules. If you think kensai strong in BG, know that kensai's can make they weapons work as +10 weapons by 3.5Ed rules (literally).
Now about berserkers. By reading the AD&D Complete fighter Handbook, i saw many limitations in Berserker that aren't applied in BG, even when the engine allow it. I understand some of them as they would make berserker characters to die often (thus making game over frequently if main char berserker die).
First, berserkers are completly out of control in berserker rage (should be in yellow circlet the entire time they enter a fight while berserked), the hit points of the character should become invisible and they should become immune to healing spells (any healing spell). By another side, bersekerd fighters can't die until the berserker state end.
It's followed immediately by the Monk, who is basically very similar to the BG monk, but also gains automatic skill points in Open locks, disarm traps, hide, move silently, climb walls, all capping eventually at 99, between lvls 12-17. (and their fists hit as if +4 at lvl 17, which is their absolute maximum level, regardless of the campaigns level cap (specifically mentioned in the entry, as a monk that chooses to go beyond 17 ascends to a higher plane of existence and is no longer playable)). They're also forbidden from using ANY magical items, unless the item is specifically available to monks.
3rd edition did away with the Kensai completely and changed it into the Weapon Master (which is functionally identical to a kensai, except they can wear armor).
Considering that in 3rd edition, a lvl 20 mage will have roughly 2x the hp of a 2nd edition lvl 20 fighter .....yeah...damage bonuses tend to be ridiculous throughout 3rd edition (and yet most mage spells are still capped at their old 2nd edition limits).
And no, the 3.5 edition's Kensai cannot deal +10 damage. The maximum enhancement bonus for any property is +5, to a total of 10 for that ability. It can simple have a total of +10 enhancement levels. So they could make their chosen weapon +2 enhancement (+2 hit/damage), Ghost touch (+1) Fiery (+1), Keen (+1), Vorpal (+5) Or +5 enhancement and Vorpal. Or +4 enhancement, Speed (+3), Keen (+1), Thundering (+2).
And the Samurai (later in the book) gets the same ability to imbue their Daisho that the Kensai does.....they're pretty much identical classes, just with slightly different gained abilities as they level.
http://propertyistheft.net/files/D&D/1st Edition/Core Books/tsr02018 - AD&D Oriental_Adventures.pdf
But this book doesn't meant that Kensai can't go past specialization, things work a bit different there (a lot of oriental only features).
Kensai start with one automatic proficience point in his weapon of choice and can distribute other three points, however during character creation he can't go over specialization **, in fact all fighter kinds (even vanilla) in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition have this same restriction at character creation, BG2 make characters of lvl 8 (or 7, i don't remember atm), thus you can go for 5 proficience points there from the start if you want.
(Kensai pick their weapon at creation, and then spend one of 3 starting profs to bring it up to specialized, since they get a free point in it to begin with. Their 2nd prof can be spent on a weapon but they can no longer specialize, and the 3rd prof must be spent on non-combat skills.
No where in the book does it ever mention ANYONE exceeding specialization. Because they get a bunch of extra abilities to go along with it. Which goes back to my main point......plain fighters ONLY get GM....that is all they get, and the fact they can get +2 hit, +3 damage, and +1/2 attacks over all other fighter kits is their one and only perk.
Archers can achieve Mastery in bows, because specialization works differently for bows/x-bows (and they sacrifice their extra generic attacks from warrior levels for extra attacks that can effect bows (which normally don't benefit from extra attacks) as well as the ability to specialize in melee weapons). ** removes the to-hit penalty for firing in close quarters and increases damage of close range shots by +1, and *** allows you to shoot 1 range increment further without penalty, and attackers no longer get a bonus when attempting to strike you in melee while wielding a bow/x-bow....that's all it does....no bonus hit, not blanket bonus damage, no extra attacks (which bows and x-bows don't even benefit from attacks gained from warrior levels either). Mastery (***) is as high as bows go, even on plain fighters, because there is no benefit for putting additional points.
I did and I've enjoyed it. I did it for more RP reasons. Lots and lots of fire spells
In page 51, in the weapon specialization, there's a passage that says "this dedication is not as a fierce as the kensai's..."
As you said, the book doesn't even mention pass specialization, by that statement you see that the system there is different or just omissive.
To take omissions as stated rules is insensate is unwise, and nowhere in the book is mentioned that you need to be a kitless fighter to have ***** proficience slots.
Because it doesn't mention using the expanded chart, that means it also doesn't contradict the C&T book rules, which are pretty clear that only plain fighters can achieve mastery or beyond....
Mastery (***) isn't 100% excluded as written, but it does recommend strongly that the DM not allow fighter kits to achieve Mastery because they've already been compensated enough by gaining additional abilities, unless they're giving up a LOT of benefits AND have no combat related bonuses as kit features, and no fighter period should have it prior to at least level 10.
High Mastery and Grand Mastery specifically state that only a single class plain fighter is EVER allowed to achieve them.
Stay on topic, folks.
Imagine being one of those people and suddenly finding that the thread is discussing something entirely different.
If you want to discuss something else, start a new thread.
Stick to sorcerers and dragon disciples, or start a new thread. Any other off-topic posts here will be deleted as spam. This isn't a difficult concept.