Blade or Skald for Neutral/NG run? Party selection help?

GoForTheEyesBoo

I have never played a bard before and I am looking to use one for my neutral/neutral-good run. I feel like a Blade may be too tank oriented and I may miss the full bard experience. What are your thoughts?

Be forewarned, I plan on using Rasaad, Neera in my party and I am looking for other members outside of the canon party and my other evil playthrough (Dorn, Vic, Kagain, Edwin, and Special NPC).

I am partial to perhaps including Branwin and Xan…

ajwz

Skalds are awesome at playing a supporting role in combat.
Blades are better at playing a more central role - and can fight better individually.
I'd say it depends on how you want to play your protagonist.
If you have lots of fighter types in your party, skald is probably more powerful. If you have lots of support types then blade is probably more powerful.



Also, full bard experience would be a good name for a power metal band.

PugPug

The Enhanced Bard Song HLA does everything the Skald's song does and more.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/abilities/enhancedbardsong.php

So Blade is the way to go. I enjoy the Blade very much.

ajwz

PugPug said:

The Enhanced Bard Song HLA does everything the Skald's song does and more.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/abilities/enhancedbardsong.php

So Blade is the way to go. I enjoy the Blade very much.

so for like maybe 1/10th of bg2 and none of bg1 blade is better

PugPug

ajwz said:

so for like maybe 1/10th of bg2 and none of bg1 blade is better

+2 bonus to hit and damage and -2 bonus to AC for allies is good, no doubt. But like all bard songs, it comes at the expense of the bard standing and doing nothing else...

I think I might actually rather have the vanilla bard song as a free Remove Fear.

PugPug

Though actually, if it's only BG1 you're worried about, the Jester is probably downright broken. Song confuses enemies every round if they fail a save vs. spell with a +2 bonus.

Wanderon

PugPug said:

Though actually, if it's only BG1 you're worried about, the Jester is probably downright broken. Song confuses enemies every round if they fail a save vs. spell with a +2 bonus.

The issue with that is the small radius in which the song works - putting your fairly squishy bard in the midst of the enemies he is trying to confuse and then once confused they are still likely to attack the nearest enemy - oops that's the bard that just confused them. I fooled with one a bit and if an enemy was engaging me when the song confused them more often than not they just kept attacking/chasing me.

Yes it can probably be micromanaged to some degree for some reasonably successful battles but it's still almost as dangerous to the bard & party as it is to their enemies.

zur312

do i remember correclty or is bard a spellcaster and spells are the most OP skills in the game so you can cast invisibility on self and play song confusing everyone than enjoy stabing them with a stick or quarter staff or katans

DJKajuru

PugPug said:

The Enhanced Bard Song HLA does everything the Skald's song does and more.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/abilities/enhancedbardsong.php

So Blade is the way to go. I enjoy the Blade very much.

You speak as if HLA were easily attainable!

zur312

i would go for skald and ignore critics ;D

Wanderon

zur312 said:

do i remember correclty or is bard a spellcaster and spells are the most OP skills in the game so you can cast invisibility on self and play song confusing everyone than enjoy stabing them with a stick or quarter staff or katans

Do I remember correctly or does a bard get his first level 2 spell at level 4 his second at level 6 and at level 10 at the end of BGEE has a total of 3 level 2 spells? Hope he brought his pillow...

GoForTheEyesBoo

Thanks everyone, I think I am leaning towards Skald.

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding party? Rasaad and Neera are for certain, and I'm leaning towards Xan and Branwen but I need to balance my party needs...

EntropyXII

@GoForTheEyesBoo - I'd go with Skald. I find it incredible annoying that Haer'Dalis is a blade - and without cheating, he will always be a better fighter than the PC. Seriously, why make an npc the best Bard kit, and then make it so he has 2* in short swords. I quit my BG2 Blade run when i discovered this.

ZanathKariashi

If you import a Bard from BG1 (vanilla) and convert to a blade, it sometimes lets you specialize in any sword-like weapon, except scimitars, during the creation phase. Haer'daelis also gets specialization in longswords if you recruit him at...lvl 12?..if memory serves (It's supposedly part of his Doomguard training rather then an innate ability of the class....especially since blades aren't supposed to be good at melee at ALL..they're a pure support class in PnP, while the Skald and Gallant are the melee powerhouses of the bard kits).

Yeah, for most of the game, the Skald is both more powerful and more useful to the party. If you song-twist to replicate the fact that skalds are SUPPOSED to be able to sing while fighting, they're easily more powerful then Blades and don't rely on limited use abilities to do so. You can even dual-wield reasonably well with only a single point in two-weapon (even though ALL Rogues are supposed to be able to be just as proficient as warriors in that regard) (and just like a Blade and Swashy, they REALLY need dual-speed weapons to compete as a damage dealer vs warrior classes)

zur312

Wanderon said:

zur312 said:

do i remember correclty or is bard a spellcaster and spells are the most OP skills in the game so you can cast invisibility on self and play song confusing everyone than enjoy stabing them with a stick or quarter staff or katans

Do I remember correctly or does a bard get his first level 2 spell at level 4 his second at level 6 and at level 10 at the end of BGEE has a total of 3 level 2 spells? Hope he brought his pillow...

it is not powergaming character and powergaming thread so if you really want op skills why are you in bard skald thread?

GoForTheEyesBoo

To bring this more back to the subject...I'm thinking now of Rasaad, Neera, Coran, Kivan, Branwen, and Skald. Thoughts?

Warmage

That can work, but you will have a relatively weak frontline. Rasaad is a monk and thus very weak in the early levels, and Coran and Kivan's stats are both more geared toward ranged combat than tanking damage. Branwen can do alright in melee if you get her the ogre strength gloves, but is not super tanky either. If you like the characters, you can certainly make it work, but switching out someone (maybe Kivan) for a tougher frontline fighter, like Ajantis (with dex gloves), could help.

ZanathKariashi

NO THEY ARE NOT....Kivan is 2nd to Minsc, or 3rd if you count Dorn as a front line fighter due to his higher str (+1 more damage then plain 18 gives) and good dex meaning you can move the dex bracers else where and still get a decent ac (FAR more powerful then that scrub Ajantis could ever aspire). And Coran is deadly as a hit and fade backstabber, like all F/T, which due to his higher Dex, boosts all his thief skills by roughly another 5%. And they get a further boosted shot in the arm due to the skald song.

Stop spreading these stupid myths....if they hadn't included a guy with a bow on his portrait NO ONE would have associated Kivan with archery, which he is inferior to Khalid at, he would've been right up there with Minsc as a front line fighter, due to his 2nd highest str (of the vanilla NPCs) and actually good dex, giving him a decent ac as a perfect damage dealer that can also take a few hits (that shouldn't be needed if the casters are doing their jobs)

Also Coran is better used in melee as a back-stabber, since he's part fighter making him less efficient for ranged combat (he's already likely to not miss just by virtue of fighter thac0, and better suited to his greatly boosted thief skills to stealth in and deliver a massive backstab, and then rinse and repeat. (yes, he has an illegal 3rd point in bows, that I always SK out, but he'll still deal more damage in melee then at range).



Also, use your skald slots for buffs and disabling spells.....there's PLENTY of wands to handle damage, as well as some forms of crowd control (cycle your spells around as you find a wand to replicate a debuff).

Awong124

I never use Kivan as an archer. With his high STR I give him some form of plate mail, and dual wield from the 2 free proficiency points, he's one of the best front-line damage dealers.

But I use Coran as an archer. His low STR means his THAC0 isn't great. With the Longbow of Marksmanship and either Bracers of Archery or Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, his THAC0 is ridiculously low in BG1, and can hit pretty much everything almost every time. I think his THAC0 could reach as low as 0 with the right equipment.

ZanathKariashi

That's the problem though.....it doesn't matter. And since he's part fighter can use all those nice str boosting potions to set up an instant-death backstab (or heavily damage stronger targets), and trust me...I've solo'd thieves many times...you almost never miss even with crappy str totals and if you did, you were going to no matter your str score...and thats with Thief thac0...a F/T is able to hit lvl 7, with roughly 2x the thac0 a thief has, just one short of the max a pure fighter would have (and attacking from stealth gives +4 to hit, which is same to hit as 21 str)). You also get him fairly late, shortly before going to BG, at which point the ogre gauntlets and 19 str belt open up for use. Since he's part fighter, he can achieve 3 attacks per round, while dual-wielding, which is FAR more useful then trying to attack with Brawen, who is better suited as a support caster, due to a lack of natural attacks, even if you pump her strength with DUHM (only +2 is possible), she still can't do enough damage to equal to 2 attacks worth of damage, and has the same thac0 that Coran would....except he can pull out a 3x BS OR just straight up attack the enemy for several more damage then he could deal using ranged weapons, since they removed str damage from bows, making melee superior. (barring Arrows of detonation, which turn ANYONE that can use a bow into a WMD).

Awong124

I don't think the STR belt is available in BG1. But yes, he could use STR potions. Generally my PC is a backstabbing F/T, so I leave those duties to him. I've never even considered using Coran as a melee character, since there are already many choices for that role. Though there's no doubt you can make him effective in melee, his natural stats make him better suited as an archer, as he is intended to be given that the developers gave him illegal 20 DEX and illegal Mastery in Longbows.

ZanathKariashi

They added a str belt that sets str to 19, int to 6 (aka, no penalty at all), as part of Rashad's later questline.

the mastery thing was unintended (since it's illegal, and has no explanation, like several other stat discrepancies that have been fixed at some point or another....Coran's illegal pip only survives due to fan pressure wanting their broken mechanics, where as other characters had their illegal stats addressed (Minsc being exception since his situation is actually justified in his Bio...though they really need to give him an innate passive 35% spell failure penalty, just so everything is perfectly legal (6 wisdom has a 35% spell failure in PnP for divine spells (unlike arcane, divine doesn't have a minimum requirement for casting (if that was implemented)..you just suffer a progressively larger penalty if your wisdom is 12 or lower)), the 20 dex WAS intended however, since that was supposed to be his "unique" feature, similar to Kagain's 20 Con.

zur312

coran + improved invisibility = lololool

Wanderon

zur312 said:

Wanderon said:

zur312 said:

do i remember correclty or is bard a spellcaster and spells are the most OP skills in the game so you can cast invisibility on self and play song confusing everyone than enjoy stabing them with a stick or quarter staff or katans

Do I remember correctly or does a bard get his first level 2 spell at level 4 his second at level 6 and at level 10 at the end of BGEE has a total of 3 level 2 spells? Hope he brought his pillow...

it is not powergaming character and powergaming thread so if you really want op skills why are you in bard skald thread?

Just trying to tell the other side of the story - I played a jester in BGEE and found it annoying and much less useful than I expected it to be and have since run across others that felt the same YMMV but that doesn't mean your experience (or conjecture) is any more valid than others - since the OP is asking for opinions I thought I would share mine in spite of the fact that you seem to want to belittle it.

ZanathKariashi

Because bards are by default some of the most OP characters period, with their mastery of narrative structure, they should be ruling the entire cosmos rather then singing in some dinky taverns!!??!

Necroblivion

ZanathKariashi said:

Because bards are by default some of the most OP characters period, with their mastery of narrative structure, they should be ruling the entire cosmos rather then singing in some dinky taverns!!??!

One of the best quotes ever! XD

zur312

Wanderon said:

zur312 said:

Wanderon said:

zur312 said:

do i remember correclty or is bard a spellcaster and spells are the most OP skills in the game so you can cast invisibility on self and play song confusing everyone than enjoy stabing them with a stick or quarter staff or katans

Do I remember correctly or does a bard get his first level 2 spell at level 4 his second at level 6 and at level 10 at the end of BGEE has a total of 3 level 2 spells? Hope he brought his pillow...

it is not powergaming character and powergaming thread so if you really want op skills why are you in bard skald thread?

Just trying to tell the other side of the story - I played a jester in BGEE and found it annoying and much less useful than I expected it to be and have since run across others that felt the same YMMV but that doesn't mean your experience (or conjecture) is any more valid than others - since the OP is asking for opinions I thought I would share mine in spite of the fact that you seem to want to belittle it.

so if you played bard and had hard time you played wrong

Awong124

ZanathKariashi said:

They added a str belt that sets str to 19, int to 6 (aka, no penalty at all), as part of Rashad's later questline.

That explains it. I've never used Rasaad.

GoodSteve

To answer the OP's question it depends on how long you plan to play the character. If you're only going to be playing BG:EE and not continuing with the same character in BG2:EE I would suggest Skald. The bonuses from the song are very strong in the first game and can make some of the better NPC's like Dorn and Kagain even more deadly in melee. As was mentioned earlier the HLA Improved Bard Song makes the Skald song useless and late game the kit only nets you +1 to hit and damage for a decrease to pick pockets of 75%.

I feel that the blade really doesn't come into his own until very late in the first game making it not a really ideal choice. The lack of great AC increasing items useable by a Bard (that still allow spellcasting) in BG:EE means you'll be fairly squishy without constant use of AC increasing spells which you wont have many of at such a low level and prevent you from taking better spells (like Chromatic Orb, Color Spray, Sleep etc.) and Defensive Spin doesn't truly become powerful until you have gained some levels and even then with the low XP cap in BG:EE you wont have many uses. This coupled with the low amount of weapon proficiency pips for Bards means you will not have proficiency in a weapon and 3 pips in Two-Weapon Style until very late in the game. The Blade does however outshine the Skald come BG2 where Bard useable AC items are more abundant as are spell slots defensive/offensive spin uses and strength and proficiency pips. Also, one of the major drawbacks of the Blade (Bard Song not scaling with level) is removed if you take the Improved Bard Song HLA.

I think a good party for a Neutral/Good party would be:

Tank/Melee DPS: Kivan - He has high strength and dex, comes proficient in Longbows and Halberds (meaning you don't have the mess around in the inventory to switch from your bow to two weapons if you dont want to) and with his natural 18 strength doesn't require any items to equip a Composite Longbow. With heavy armor equipped he can be a decent tank out of the gate while still dealing good damage.

Tank/Melee DPS/Divine Spellcasting: Yeslick - Yeslick is one of the best NPC's in the game. Fighter/Cleric is a strong kit since he can buff himself to have great melee ability while getting more than 1 attack per round unlike other clerics. Being a Dwarf with a good Con he has better saves than most and more HP to boot meaning he is hard to bring down. Also, his innate Dispel Magic ability is probably the most useful innate spell-like ability of any of the NPCs. His only downside is a low Dex but it can be easily fixed with the Guantlets of Dexterity. Also with proficiency in Maces out of the gate you can give him the Stupifier which is a great weapon and easily won me the game on my frist playthrough by repeatedly stunning Sarevok.

Thief: Coran/Alora - Since you don't want to use any of the "canon" NPC's Imoen is out (although she is the best Thief in the game in my opinion). Coran is a decent choice, he's a fighter/thief so he has better Thac0 than other thieves and more than 1 attack per round with melee weapons. His illegally high Dex makes him great with a bow (as does his illegal 3 pips in Longbows) and increases his Thief skills to boot. His only downside is that with his low natural strength to really be a heavy hitter in melee he will require a Str boosting item.

Alora is great now that her Lucky Rabbits Foot has been fixed to grant her bonuses. Being a Halfling with 12 Con she gets +3 to her aves vs. Death, Wands and Spells and her 19 Dex coupled with Halfling race grants her +25% Open Locks, +15% Find Traps, +20% Pick Pockets, +25% Move Silently, +30% Hide in Shadows and +10% Set Traps. The Lucky Rabbits foot grants: +2 to AC (stacks with magic armor), +2 to all saves and +10% to all Thief skills. Her only real downside is her low strength and the fact that she isn't recruitable until you reach Baldur's Gate.

I feel these NPC's really round out a group with a Bard, Rasaad, and Neera.

Warmage

@ZanathKariashi Quite a forceful reaction you have there. I agree that both of them make good melee damage dealers as well. Doesn't change my point that neither of them is particularly amazing at taking a beating. That is no problem if you control the fights right, but not everyone likes to play that way. I felt it was worth a mention that this party does not have a truly brawny character, in case he wants one.

ZanathKariashi

Ajantis isn't a brawny character though (he requires way more work then Kivan to do the same job)..on the other hand, Yeslick is a friggin GOD due to being a F/C, who can not only buff his strength to nice levels, he gets the thac0 and extra attacks to make it work. (And really now...as much as damage enemies deal, you're talk about like 1 more attack in most cases, that a "brawnier" character can take, which balances out having better offense since you kill them faster and are much less likely to need it in the first place.

F/T's are MADE to backstab..it's their whole reason for existing as far as I'm concerned.....slap boots of speed on Coran, blow away or heavily wound a dangerous enemy or two, and then bring in the cavalry to kill the greatly weakened encounter.


I mean sure...you could just load up on ranged weapons and let them have it.....but why bother with other classes at all when the pure warriors classes can easily be re-tooled to superior ranged duty (seriously...darts are the ultimate weapons in the hands of Fighters), over a more balanced party (the casters are already going to be providing ranged support after all).