@shawne - Why couldn't he have meant subraces such as "Moon Elf, Wood Elf, Sun Elf, Wild Elf, Gold Dwarf" etc etc. All of those would be easier to implement and not be overpowered.
Uh... did you read the posts Edvin cited? Daigle was the one who brought them up:
@EntropyXII: I wondered the same thing about why people here love drow so much. Then on some thread someone said, that drows are elven bad boys and apparently everyone loves elves and also everyone loves bad boys.
My opinion on this is, if the demand for subraces is this high, make them. Then only include the "safe" races into character creation, with possibility to include the others as mod. Thus almost-official without the necessity of creating new dialog etc - let modders take care of that.
I like the idea of including subraces, but forbidding the overpowered ones during character creation (making them obtainable only by using EE Gatekeeper) if the problem in including them is in some subraces being overpowered and not fitting in the story. But I personally would prefer them all to be playable (because I don't play multiplayer so my game will not be harmed in any way by overpowered races). Perhaps ovepowered ones should be forbidden only for multiplayer? That would please everyone...
My opinion on this is, if the demand for subraces is this high, make them. Then only include the "safe" races into character creation, with possibility to include the others as mod. Thus almost-official without the necessity of creating new dialog etc - let modders take care of that.
How is that any different from just adding the races and letting players decide what they want their characters to be? You don't want to play a drow, don't play a drow. No need to go through ridiculously overcomplicated processes to qualify who is "allowed" to do what...
I like the idea of including subraces, but forbidding the overpowered ones during character creation (making them obtainable only by using EE Gatekeeper) if the problem in including them is in some subraces being overpowered and not fitting in the story. But I personally would prefer them all to be playable (because I don't play multiplayer so my game will not be harmed in any way by overpowered races). Perhaps ovepowered ones should be forbidden only for multiplayer? That would please everyone...
Everyone except players who don't use EE Shadowkeeper, which is most of them...
@shawne: The difference is that what was disscussed before, it's the changes to the game needed to fit subraces like drow in. You can argue, that there have to be no such changes, just put the drow in and set their reputation to two. But I believe that the devs would not choose this approach, I believe they would care for their game to make some sense and would have to adjust subraces like drow to the game more deeply. And that would take a lot of resources that could be in my opinion spent better elsewhere (just personal preference, nothing more). So it could be more sensible approach to leave this to modders. That's my opinion, highly speculative, but anyway...
@Edvin - I don't think wizards of the coast would sanction lowering MR. From what I understand, there are still a number of things which would have to go through them when creating BG:EE. Especially additions that could defer away from 2nd edition or 3rd edition, or those that could alter the setting (Forgotten Realms).
@Pecca - I have always looked at 'Drow' in the same light as Orcs. They frequently make raids into surface towns, frequently slaughter peasants and villagers. Torture, sacrifice and a great number of other sadistic practices are common place. They also have a liking for spiders. SPIDERS. -shivers-
In 2nd edition, Drow were actually a 'monstrous race' along with orcs IRC.
So why don't people want to play an Orc? because Drow are prettier and ever since the creation of a certain Dark Elven ranger, people have wanted to play a Dark Elf.
Both the Orc and Dark Elf would be treated similar by the surface/civilized races. Scorn, racism, violence, aggression, hatred, mistrust - to name a few.
If Dark Elf is added, I would like the Orc race to be added as well.
@Shawne - I'm not discussing what Daigle said. I'm discussing what everyone else is saying. Nobody on this forum is arguing for any of the other sub-races.. only the Dark Elves.
It's mainly a single player game. What does it matter if they add a race with much higher MR? How does it affect you if people want to power game their characters? Some races already available are already much better then others as a certain class.
If they add Drows and whatever and you don't like the race just pick something other to role play.
@Dee - I know, I was just being awkward It backs up my point nicely though - which is that I just can't see the fascination with Dark Elves. They're cruel, sadistic spider lovers, forever cursed by Corellon to live underground. They also manage to gain insane magic resistance making them nearly completely immune to magic by level 20.
@shawne: The difference is that what was disscussed before, it's the changes to the game needed to fit subraces like drow in. You can argue, that there have to be no such changes, just put the drow in and set their reputation to two.
The game has a built-in justification for pretty much any race/class combo, however unlikely within the context of the story (ie: you've spent your whole life in Candlekeep). It's right there in your default biography. And if half-orc PCs aren't penalized in terms of alignment or reputation, drow PCs should be similarly exempt (especially if Drizzt is already active and Faerun has a precedent for "Good" drow). There's a certain level of suspension of disbelief that comes before you even start the game, especially now that we have classes like blackguard (in which you apparently make a pact with a fiend while Gorion is down the hall or something).
It backs up my point nicely though - which is that I just can't see the fascination with Dark Elves. They're cruel, sadistic spider lovers, forever cursed by Corellon to live underground. They also manage to gain insane magic resistance making them nearly completely immune to magic by level 20.
That you don't see the appeal is fair enough; as for magic resistance, Viconia's never rose above 65 and I had her in my party throughout the entire saga.
@shawne - I'm just being a pain, but you must admit 65% MR is still insane. I can't remember how it's supposed to work in 2nd edition but isn't it 50% MR +2% for every level?
Personally, I truly wouldn't mind playing a Drow if it fit in the game. I just can't see how it will. There will be so many plot holes and a good number of scenario's that won't make sense - especially in BG2. For me, the real interest in playing a Dark Elf would be the ton of unique dialogue you would get. The way your PC will be treated and the conversation options with Viconia etc.
As it is a single player game, revolving heavily around the story, then wont the PC (if Drow subraces are included) being treated like a normal elf ruin everyone's immersion? That would be what would kill it for me personally. I mean you could ignore most of the dialogue in the game and make some up as you go along but that surely can't be the point of playing BG. If players don't care about the dialogue and want the sub-race anyway then like I said, why not make the skin black and the hair white? That would likely save the dev's some time on inputting new code and it wouldn't make any difference what-so-ever. That is of course if players 'really' don't care about the MR - which I find is unlikely.
If people can give me a genuine reason why the Drow as a sub-race should be included as a choice in character creation - even if that choice has 0% impact on the game and that they could make the same changes via hair colour and skin colour i'll be quiet. It's not really additional customization is it, if it really doesn't change anything... (except maybe for the suped up resistance to magic).
Let's face it, Drizzt is unique in FR. There are millions of Drow and only a handful of 'good' Drow, and most of them have been transformed back into a surface race by Corellon at present.
Plus.... I have arachnophobia. Driders. -shudders-
I'm in favor of adding subraces, including drow, because I like having options. Combinatorial explosion excites me. I admit that the drow present certain balance/realism issues, but we have a mechanism to deal with that: reputation. It's how the game handles Viconia already. Now, since reputation is more about you than your companions, the effect can be much more severe. Say, drow reputation starts at 3, regardless of alignment, and can never increase beyond 12. Or something like that. The exact numbers could vary. Of course, this is assuming that there's an easy way to code that. If the reputation stuff is hard coded, it might be significantly more difficult to make that sort of special cap. Changing the starting reputation should be easy either way, though.
I am also assuming, for the record, that there's no mechanism in place or easily implementable that could reduce experience gains by a percentage for a specific character. Because that's how 2E handled drow originally. They just lost 20% of all experience they got in exchange for all their awesome stuff.
@shawne: As I said I was being speculative (as we all are here, with the should, could, would going on...). I simply would be in favor of the implementation through mods, for the reasons I have stated, that's all. But BTW I really don't think that Drizzt is a precedent for good drow, he is an exception, and very unique one for that.
I'd actually rather more colour options for the character's avatar than the inclusion of subraces with uneven rulesets, some of the skin tones or hair colours are just strange and limiting. There's 16 spaces left in the Skin/Hair colour choice menu that could be filled with colours not previously available. Aside from the grossly uneven benefit of high magic resistance, the only reason people want to play as a Drow is for the race title to change. That is something a modder can do, and has already done. But honestly being listed as an Evil Elf instead of a Drow isn't all that bad, especially when the drow are evil elves.
The major problem with subraces is that there's not many suitable ones to put into a 2ed setting. So if you add the drow, you'll probably have to balance things out by adding in subraces of other races, otherwise why go to such lengths to alter the game's interface just to add in the drow? Then will come the call for Tiefling and Aasimar subraces for humans, until all the subraces from the 3ed IWD2 game is included. Then will come the call for playable Genasi characters and NPCs. All of which are incredibly rare races for the setting BG is set in. Then you have the gnome and halfling subraces were are remarkably bland and inconsequential, that their inclusion would be a complete non-event.
I'm all for expanding player's options but there needs to be some tact in how it is done. There's a balance already existing in how races are treated in the game, that any new addition would have to be thoroughly vetted. In 2ed's Player's Option ruleset you could chose to be a Half-Ogre but that would be grossly overpowered and in the Complelte Book of Humanoids you could chose to be a Saurial but that would be utterly ridiculous in west Faerun.
Even other subraces of elves would be ridiculous. The Sea Elf would die if it lived solely away from the sea and the Sun Elves are a special surprise to the events of BG2. Then with the Drow, it is included under the special circumstances of Viconia, the Drizzt cameos and the underdark questline. I'm all for one off cameos from subraces but not the point where they could be found anywhere.
It's all a matter of perspective but I'd say such an addition of subraces would actually be a downgrade in terms of the game's lore and character. Even the addition of the 3ed prestige classes were something rather unnecessary and flawed. Baldur's Gate is one of the last bastions of 2ed Forgotten Realms when there's many other games out there that cater to 3ed or 4ed's use of subraces. It's by keeping intact these rules rather than turning the exceptions into the rules that make BG special. Besides a good way to gauge the priority of feature requests is to ask, could this be done via a mod? There's many things (mostly hardcoded things) that cannot be done currently that need to be addressed first.
Aside from the grossly uneven benefit of high magic resistance,
The MR would be as high as the devs make it. I might not be as high as this of NPC drows because it would be unbalanced, or it could take the form of a different yet similar effect altogether. Please stop fabricating facts, guys. There is no hard data on playable drow stats in BG, and thus there is no way to use them as a rebuttal. And I sincerely doubt that drow MR is hardcoded or somehow copyrighted and thus can't be changed.
the only reason people want to play as a Drow is for the race title to change. That is something a modder can do, and has already done.
A lot of what EE gave us and more has already been done by modders, and has been compiled into a single file. I will take official content over fan content that does the same thing if I have a choice between the two. Supporting the industry, an expected standard of quality, availability of patches and compatibility with the game have something to do with it.
The major problem with subraces is that there's not many suitable ones to put into a 2ed setting. So if you add the drow, you'll probably have to balance things out by adding in subraces of other races, otherwise why go to such lengths to alter the game's interface just to add in the drow? Then will come the call for Tiefling and Aasimar subraces for humans, until all the subraces from the 3ed IWD2 game is included. Then will come the call for playable Genasi characters and NPCs. All of which are incredibly rare races for the setting BG is set in. Then you have the gnome and halfling subraces were are remarkably bland and inconsequential, that their inclusion would be a complete non-event.I'm all for expanding player's options but there needs to be some tact in how it is done. There's a balance already existing in how races are treated in the game, that any new addition would have to be thoroughly vetted. In 2ed's Player's Option ruleset you could chose to be a Half-Ogre but that would be grossly overpowered and in the Complelte Book of Humanoids you could chose to be a Saurial but that would be utterly ridiculous in west Faerun.
So much speculation... "if you add the drow, you obviously have to add the tieflings and aasimar, and then nothing is stopping them from adding half-dragons and half-ogres, and then...! It doesn't matter nobody's asking for half-illithids, they'll shove them down our throats, I just know it!". There is a certain canon of D&D subraces that have become strongly associated with Forgotten Realms, amongs others. Playable pen&paper drow have been with us since 1985. Eilistraee, the patron deity of good drow, was around since 1991. Aasimar and tieflings - 1994, genasi - 1996, both as part of the Planescape setting that kind of seeps into all the others (Planar Sphere anyone?)... I mean, these guys have been with us for a good while longer than BG. We don't have to throw in every single weird critter that mr. Gygax & CO. came up with, but some are just so ingrained in the collective psyche of players, old and new, that we don't have to view them with suspicion. And only a chosen few could be included, those that stand out or are particularly popular or in demand. Just because elves get the drow doesn't mean dwarves must get duergar (these particular fellows would make one of the dialogues Imoen starts with you in Château d'Irenicus pretty stupid ), who are nowhere near as asked for or popular as playable races.
Even other subraces of elves would be ridiculous. The Sea Elf would die if it lived solely away from the sea and the Sun Elves are a special surprise to the events of BG2. Then with the Drow, it is included under the special circumstances of Viconia, the Drizzt cameos and the underdark questline. I'm all for one off cameos from subraces but not the point where they could be found anywhere.
1 PC is anywhere? You are the progeny of a dead god, a unique individual chosen by fate from a legion of siblings of all races, destined to become either one of the greatest heroes or the greatest villains of the Realms, with the capacity to become a fierce fighter, a reality shattering mage, or both... but a subrace would be "too exceptional"? And again, they don't necessarily have to include every single subrace that ever came out.
It's all a matter of perspective but I'd say such an addition of subraces would actually be a downgrade in terms of the game's lore and character. Even the addition of the 3ed prestige classes were something rather unnecessary and flawed. Baldur's Gate is one of the last bastions of 2ed Forgotten Realms when there's many other games out there that cater to 3ed or 4ed's use of subraces.
Nobody would make you play them. Those that could handle such sacrilege would probably like to play them, seeing as they've been playing BG for over a decade now and they would like to relive the adventure with something they never tried before. New players might actively seek subraces, because they've been accustomed to having more of a choice due to the shifting customer expectations. All the subraces and races mentioned as possible features have been a playable part of 2nd ed FR, or even been around longer than that.
I can't believe I'm mustering up so much effort to write about a topic I don't exactly care about, in defense of a race I actually don't like. It's the inner troll in me I'm going drinking now, just wait till I come back, then I'll REALLY be impossible to have a conversation with
- There's already precedent for using the 50% Magic Resistance rule in Baldur's Gate. Viconia has it because the original developers felt it was integral in making a drow character. They also adjusted her stats, so to balance her out. It's not fabrication, it is in game fact.
- There is a pattern to what mods the developers include din BG:EE. They added in bug fixes and the 1PP icons because that is something they were going to do anyways. They however chose not to add in quests, kits or any extraneous mod detail into BG:EE.
- It's not so much speculation, as is what has been suggested many times in the feature request forum. Aside from the drow, the other popular picks for subraces are the Aasimar, Tiefling and Genasi. Despite them being extremely rare for 1368 DR. In the case of the Gensai they only become commonplace in Calimshan around a hundred years after the events of Baldur's Gate. Present day d&d players may have grown accustomed to a whole kitchen sink variety of subraces, but to include them in 1368DR would be ahistorical.
- I didn't say that the player character is anywhere, just that the existence of a drow player character freely moving about on the surface would make it seem like a drow could be anywhere. When in reality the drow are hunted and slaughtered on sight, just ask Viconia. Or even the above surface drow settlements in Tethyr that were burnt to the ground, with the inhabitants chased underground. There is an extreme prejudice against the drow in west Faerun. You could create the basis of a drow campaign elsewhere but the region of Baldur's Gate is too volatile.
- Like you said, there is a difference between official content and modded content. Official content is something that is ingrained into the fabric of the game, while modded content is optional and can be removed. If the drow were to become official, then it would alter the way Baldur's Gate treats the concept of race.
The only way the developers would be able to achieve a compromise would be for the subrace menu to be open for modification. If they simply just add some races to the race menu as is, then that would be hardcoded and forever stuck into BG:EE. But if they were to somehow add in a menu that works like the kits, then it could be possible to mod them out.
However that is an awful lot of work to just add in the drow subrace, when it is extremely easy for anyone to make their own drow player character as is. All you need is Shadow Keeper and the class.ids file. You add in a line to the class.ids file that introduces a drow identifier, then you edit your save file to change the player's race to drow. That would take less than 5 minutes compared to all that developer effort.
The problem with subraces is that the way Baldur's Gate treats race in the character creation screen is like the Order or Family concepts of biology, they are generalised concepts of the races. While subraces are specific concepts of race. The two cannot co-exist with each other, it's either you treat race generally or specific. It's not like kits where you can say the Bard is the "True Bard" while the others kits are variations, when you get into specific races you cannot say that the generic Elf is the "True Elf" when there are Sylvan Elves, Wild Elves, Sun Elves, Drow, etc... Technically the Sylvan Elf subrace is the "true elf".
Aside from the game wanting you to see Viconia as a drow despite having the identifier of Elf, the game also wants you to see Aerie as an Avariel despite having the identifier of Elf. The Elf is there to describe the character's race in general terms, the rest is up to you. Besides with elven subraces you also get the confusing territory of each one having their own half-elf version. Haer'dalis is the only exception with it comes to race identifiers because Tieflings are clearly not elven. It's just so much complexity for so little enhancement.
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@Klorox looking at the .cre files of the drow, it is true that they only use the elf identifier. The only difference I can see is that the "drow" file UDMAN.cre has 70 magic resistance but for some reason the "Priestess of Lolth" UDGIRL.cre has 0 magic resistance. So they are identical to elf characters aside from the male drow having 70 magic resistance.
However that is an awful lot of work to just add in the drow subrace, when it is extremely easy for anyone to make their own drow player character as is. All you need is Shadow Keeper and the class.ids file. You add in a line to the class.ids file that introduces a drow identifier, then you edit your save file to change the player's race to drow. That would take less than 5 minutes compared to all that developer effort.
While I agree with everything else you said, this solution is very flawed, because the ingame string for drow is missing and even if it was created, it isn't be possible to attach it to the ids file at the moment (as far as I know). So people would just end up with empty space instead of race string in character screen.
What could work is to choose some other race, which isn't used much in the game and alter its string.
- There's already precedent for using the 50% Magic Resistance rule in Baldur's Gate. Viconia has it because the original developers felt it was integral in making a drow character. They also adjusted her stats, so to balance her out. It's not fabrication, it is in game fact.
It is fabrication to claim that they would do the same for a playable PC race. The devs simply never said any such thing, and it is against common sense to assume this is the only viable way of introducing drow as a playable subrace.
- There is a pattern to what mods the developers include din BG:EE. They added in bug fixes and the 1PP icons because that is something they were going to do anyways. They however chose not to add in quests, kits or any extraneous mod detail into BG:EE.
And now they are adding their own. Might as well add their own take on subraces.
- It's not so much speculation, as is what has been suggested many times in the feature request forum. Aside from the drow, the other popular picks for subraces are the Aasimar, Tiefling and Genasi. Despite them being extremely rare for 1368 DR. In the case of the Gensai they only become commonplace in Calimshan around a hundred years after the events of Baldur's Gate. Present day d&d players may have grown accustomed to a whole kitchen sink variety of subraces, but to include them in 1368DR would be ahistorical.
That... is simply not true. Genasi have become commonplace in 4ed., but they were certainly around in 1368DR, and thousands of years before that too. Same for the other races. 3rd. edition FR takes place mere four years after the events shown in BG, and these races are featured or referenced fairly often. As for the planar races, BG 2 makes a fair bit of use of the Planescape setting, with the Planar Sphere, Raelis Shai's theatre troupe, and a number of items referencing Planescape: Torment. What's 'ahistorical' about that?
- I didn't say that the player character is anywhere, just that the existence of a drow player character freely moving about on the surface would make it seem like a drow could be anywhere. When in reality the drow are hunted and slaughtered on sight, just ask Viconia. Or even the above surface drow settlements in Tethyr that were burnt to the ground, with the inhabitants chased underground. There is an extreme prejudice against the drow in west Faerun. You could create the basis of a drow campaign elsewhere but the region of Baldur's Gate is too volatile.
Just ask Viconia... who is freely moving about on the surface, except for a scripted event when you first meet her and her tragic backstory that is in no way reflected in gameplay after you recruit her bar dialogue. See, the developers couldn't just have everyone on the Sword Coast or in Amn trying to kill you on sight for travelling with a drow. That would be rubbish, and make for a rather unattractive game. Even the people that try to burn her at the stake are said to be fanatics and followers of Beshaba, and you never meet their like again. Sure, she doesn't get along with Keldorn, but half the other evil companions don't either.
- Like you said, there is a difference between official content and modded content. Official content is something that is ingrained into the fabric of the game, while modded content is optional and can be removed. If the drow were to become official, then it would alter the way Baldur's Gate treats the concept of race.
Enlighten me, please, as to what is the official way BG treats the concept of race?
The only way the developers would be able to achieve a compromise would be for the subrace menu to be open for modification. If they simply just add some races to the race menu as is, then that would be hardcoded and forever stuck into BG:EE. But if they were to somehow add in a menu that works like the kits, then it could be possible to mod them out.
If people will need a way of removing subraces from the character creation menu instead of just plain and simply choosing not to play them, I'm sure the devs will provide such an option, provided it doesn't screw with the multiplayer. Or the other way around, subraces could become optional DLC content, maybe paid.
However that is an awful lot of work to just add in the drow subrace, when it is extremely easy for anyone to make their own drow player character as is. All you need is Shadow Keeper and the class.ids file. You add in a line to the class.ids file that introduces a drow identifier, then you edit your save file to change the player's race to drow. That would take less than 5 minutes compared to all that developer effort.
How much developer effort is it, exactly? The devs hinted at a possibility of introducing subraces themselves, and I didn't see any of them say it's too much effort. Just that it's not 100% sure to happen, assumedly because there is vital content that needs to be prepared first, before any new promises of extra stuff can be made.
The problem with subraces is that the way Baldur's Gate treats race in the character creation screen is like the Order or Family concepts of biology, they are generalised concepts of the races. While subraces are specific concepts of race. The two cannot co-exist with each other, it's either you treat race generally or specific. It's not like kits where you can say the Bard is the "True Bard" while the others kits are variations, when you get into specific races you cannot say that the generic Elf is the "True Elf" when there are Sylvan Elves, Wild Elves, Sun Elves, Drow, etc... Technically the Sylvan Elf subrace is the "true elf".
I am in no position to say how will it be handled by the devs, but I personally wouldn't mind there being a single Elf race, with a Drow subrace for those who want it.
Aside from the game wanting you to see Viconia as a drow despite having the identifier of Elf, the game also wants you to see Aerie as an Avariel despite having the identifier of Elf. The Elf is there to describe the character's race in general terms, the rest is up to you. Besides with elven subraces you also get the confusing territory of each one having their own half-elf version. Haer'dalis is the only exception with it comes to race identifiers because Tieflings are clearly not elven. It's just so much complexity for so little enhancement.
Yes, it wants you to see them as such, because the engine was a lot more limited compared to what we have available today. You *absolutely* don't have to put in every specific half-elven combination. In p&p there is no stat difference between half-elves of different elven subraces, and the changes are merely cosmetic, workable with colour options.
@Klorox looking at the .cre files of the drow, it is true that they only use the elf identifier. The only difference I can see is that the "drow" file UDMAN.cre has 70 magic resistance but for some reason the "Priestess of Lolth" UDGIRL.cre has 0 magic resistance. So they are identical to elf characters aside from the male drow having 70 magic resistance.
And my point is the MR is a HUGE difference between a Drow and a surface elf.
Unless the developers want to rework the entire engine into 3 (or later) rules, I say leave more powerful sub races OUT.
So much pointless bickering. I'm quite content with the skin and hair color options to appear drow. But honestly, I don't see Gorion saving the drow child over a human one (I'm just going to assume you remember the story of you and our antagonist sibling at a particular ritual). What I don't get is if the MR is so negotiable for the sake of making a PC drow, then why can't it be excluded entirely and drop the whole issue of game balance completely. Unless you're really desperate for some kind of immunity to magic...
As for lore, everybody knows it's improper. They may not want to admit it, but no matter how loud you bicker your points, in the end of the day, the argument is still a ventilation of misdirection.
Drow have a flat 80% spell resistance that drops by 1% for every month spent outside of the Underdark, and have to spend a like amount within the Underdark to recover it.
If it drops below 60%, they lose all their innate powers.
They also suffer a 20% XP penalty.
All reaction adjustments are 2 grades worse then normal, double that when dealing with surface Elves or Mountain dwarves.
(they also have different race caps. Females cap at 15 cleric, 12 mage, while males cap at 15 fighter, 6 cleric, and 12 mage, anything not mentioned is the same as Elves)
seriously though this is one of those issues that i wish could just be cleared up by someone in blue a few hints were made about sub-races which led a group of people to be excited(myself included) then it never went anywere. They should realy just clear up wether such content is intended or not. That way no matter which side of the argument you fall on it can just be left alone and everyone can be happy that they are well informed
No subraces in the next patch for sure; if we ever do them, it won't be for a while.
We have some ideas on how they could be best implemented and where they could be used, but it's a much bigger consideration than simply adding a field and a UI screen. (To wit: If you create a Drow subrace, you then have to go through the game and change all of the drow creature files to use that same subrace; you have to make sure that all spells and effects that are supposed to affect drow still affect them, and you have to make sure that scripts still function with the new race.)
This doesn't mean that it won't ever happen, but if it does happen it will have to be handled carefully, which means that it will probably not be a priority until other more urgent things have been dealt with.
@Dee thank you for responding to my post and sorry i missed your previous message
i have to admit im much happyier knowing exactly were this issue/feature stands in regards to the overal project. I think it benefits everyone to have information like this
Comments
"Tieflings, Aasimar, Gold Dwarves, Wild Elves, Duergar, (cough)DROW(cough)... we've got some plans."
We must read between the lines.
Or we can just lower Drow magic resist
@Pecca - I have always looked at 'Drow' in the same light as Orcs. They frequently make raids into surface towns, frequently slaughter peasants and villagers. Torture, sacrifice and a great number of other sadistic practices are common place. They also have a liking for spiders. SPIDERS. -shivers-
In 2nd edition, Drow were actually a 'monstrous race' along with orcs IRC.
So why don't people want to play an Orc? because Drow are prettier and ever since the creation of a certain Dark Elven ranger, people have wanted to play a Dark Elf.
Both the Orc and Dark Elf would be treated similar by the surface/civilized races. Scorn, racism, violence, aggression, hatred, mistrust - to name a few.
If Dark Elf is added, I would like the Orc race to be added as well.
@Shawne - I'm not discussing what Daigle said. I'm discussing what everyone else is saying. Nobody on this forum is arguing for any of the other sub-races.. only the Dark Elves.
Some races already available are already much better then others as a certain class.
If they add Drows and whatever and you don't like the race just pick something other to role play.
If subraces are added to the game (and by no means am I saying that they will be), it won't be for a while.
Sun Elves are better ....FOR THE SELDARINE!
Personally, I truly wouldn't mind playing a Drow if it fit in the game. I just can't see how it will. There will be so many plot holes and a good number of scenario's that won't make sense - especially in BG2. For me, the real interest in playing a Dark Elf would be the ton of unique dialogue you would get. The way your PC will be treated and the conversation options with Viconia etc.
As it is a single player game, revolving heavily around the story, then wont the PC (if Drow subraces are included) being treated like a normal elf ruin everyone's immersion? That would be what would kill it for me personally. I mean you could ignore most of the dialogue in the game and make some up as you go along but that surely can't be the point of playing BG. If players don't care about the dialogue and want the sub-race anyway then like I said, why not make the skin black and the hair white? That would likely save the dev's some time on inputting new code and it wouldn't make any difference what-so-ever. That is of course if players 'really' don't care about the MR - which I find is unlikely.
If people can give me a genuine reason why the Drow as a sub-race should be included as a choice in character creation - even if that choice has 0% impact on the game and that they could make the same changes via hair colour and skin colour i'll be quiet. It's not really additional customization is it, if it really doesn't change anything... (except maybe for the suped up resistance to magic).
Let's face it, Drizzt is unique in FR. There are millions of Drow and only a handful of 'good' Drow, and most of them have been transformed back into a surface race by Corellon at present.
Plus.... I have arachnophobia. Driders. -shudders-
I am also assuming, for the record, that there's no mechanism in place or easily implementable that could reduce experience gains by a percentage for a specific character. Because that's how 2E handled drow originally. They just lost 20% of all experience they got in exchange for all their awesome stuff.
The major problem with subraces is that there's not many suitable ones to put into a 2ed setting. So if you add the drow, you'll probably have to balance things out by adding in subraces of other races, otherwise why go to such lengths to alter the game's interface just to add in the drow? Then will come the call for Tiefling and Aasimar subraces for humans, until all the subraces from the 3ed IWD2 game is included. Then will come the call for playable Genasi characters and NPCs. All of which are incredibly rare races for the setting BG is set in. Then you have the gnome and halfling subraces were are remarkably bland and inconsequential, that their inclusion would be a complete non-event.
I'm all for expanding player's options but there needs to be some tact in how it is done. There's a balance already existing in how races are treated in the game, that any new addition would have to be thoroughly vetted. In 2ed's Player's Option ruleset you could chose to be a Half-Ogre but that would be grossly overpowered and in the Complelte Book of Humanoids you could chose to be a Saurial but that would be utterly ridiculous in west Faerun.
Even other subraces of elves would be ridiculous. The Sea Elf would die if it lived solely away from the sea and the Sun Elves are a special surprise to the events of BG2. Then with the Drow, it is included under the special circumstances of Viconia, the Drizzt cameos and the underdark questline. I'm all for one off cameos from subraces but not the point where they could be found anywhere.
It's all a matter of perspective but I'd say such an addition of subraces would actually be a downgrade in terms of the game's lore and character. Even the addition of the 3ed prestige classes were something rather unnecessary and flawed. Baldur's Gate is one of the last bastions of 2ed Forgotten Realms when there's many other games out there that cater to 3ed or 4ed's use of subraces. It's by keeping intact these rules rather than turning the exceptions into the rules that make BG special. Besides a good way to gauge the priority of feature requests is to ask, could this be done via a mod? There's many things (mostly hardcoded things) that cannot be done currently that need to be addressed first.
All the subraces and races mentioned as possible features have been a playable part of 2nd ed FR, or even been around longer than that.
I can't believe I'm mustering up so much effort to write about a topic I don't exactly care about, in defense of a race I actually don't like. It's the inner troll in me
- There is a pattern to what mods the developers include din BG:EE. They added in bug fixes and the 1PP icons because that is something they were going to do anyways. They however chose not to add in quests, kits or any extraneous mod detail into BG:EE.
- It's not so much speculation, as is what has been suggested many times in the feature request forum. Aside from the drow, the other popular picks for subraces are the Aasimar, Tiefling and Genasi. Despite them being extremely rare for 1368 DR. In the case of the Gensai they only become commonplace in Calimshan around a hundred years after the events of Baldur's Gate. Present day d&d players may have grown accustomed to a whole kitchen sink variety of subraces, but to include them in 1368DR would be ahistorical.
- I didn't say that the player character is anywhere, just that the existence of a drow player character freely moving about on the surface would make it seem like a drow could be anywhere. When in reality the drow are hunted and slaughtered on sight, just ask Viconia. Or even the above surface drow settlements in Tethyr that were burnt to the ground, with the inhabitants chased underground. There is an extreme prejudice against the drow in west Faerun. You could create the basis of a drow campaign elsewhere but the region of Baldur's Gate is too volatile.
- Like you said, there is a difference between official content and modded content. Official content is something that is ingrained into the fabric of the game, while modded content is optional and can be removed. If the drow were to become official, then it would alter the way Baldur's Gate treats the concept of race.
The only way the developers would be able to achieve a compromise would be for the subrace menu to be open for modification. If they simply just add some races to the race menu as is, then that would be hardcoded and forever stuck into BG:EE. But if they were to somehow add in a menu that works like the kits, then it could be possible to mod them out.
However that is an awful lot of work to just add in the drow subrace, when it is extremely easy for anyone to make their own drow player character as is. All you need is Shadow Keeper and the class.ids file. You add in a line to the class.ids file that introduces a drow identifier, then you edit your save file to change the player's race to drow. That would take less than 5 minutes compared to all that developer effort.
The problem with subraces is that the way Baldur's Gate treats race in the character creation screen is like the Order or Family concepts of biology, they are generalised concepts of the races. While subraces are specific concepts of race. The two cannot co-exist with each other, it's either you treat race generally or specific. It's not like kits where you can say the Bard is the "True Bard" while the others kits are variations, when you get into specific races you cannot say that the generic Elf is the "True Elf" when there are Sylvan Elves, Wild Elves, Sun Elves, Drow, etc... Technically the Sylvan Elf subrace is the "true elf".
Aside from the game wanting you to see Viconia as a drow despite having the identifier of Elf, the game also wants you to see Aerie as an Avariel despite having the identifier of Elf. The Elf is there to describe the character's race in general terms, the rest is up to you. Besides with elven subraces you also get the confusing territory of each one having their own half-elf version. Haer'dalis is the only exception with it comes to race identifiers because Tieflings are clearly not elven. It's just so much complexity for so little enhancement.
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@Klorox looking at the .cre files of the drow, it is true that they only use the elf identifier. The only difference I can see is that the "drow" file UDMAN.cre has 70 magic resistance but for some reason the "Priestess of Lolth" UDGIRL.cre has 0 magic resistance. So they are identical to elf characters aside from the male drow having 70 magic resistance.
What could work is to choose some other race, which isn't used much in the game and alter its string.
You *absolutely* don't have to put in every specific half-elven combination. In p&p there is no stat difference between half-elves of different elven subraces, and the changes are merely cosmetic, workable with colour options.
Unless the developers want to rework the entire engine into 3 (or later) rules, I say leave more powerful sub races OUT.
As for lore, everybody knows it's improper. They may not want to admit it, but no matter how loud you bicker your points, in the end of the day, the argument is still a ventilation of misdirection.
If it drops below 60%, they lose all their innate powers.
They also suffer a 20% XP penalty.
All reaction adjustments are 2 grades worse then normal, double that when dealing with surface Elves or Mountain dwarves.
(they also have different race caps. Females cap at 15 cleric, 12 mage, while males cap at 15 fighter, 6 cleric, and 12 mage, anything not mentioned is the same as Elves)
seriously though this is one of those issues that i wish could just be cleared up by someone in blue a few hints were made about sub-races which led a group of people to be excited(myself included) then it never went anywere. They should realy just clear up wether such content is intended or not. That way no matter which side of the argument you fall on it can just be left alone and everyone can be happy that they are well informed
I mentioned rather ambiguously here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/316545/#Comment_316545
No subraces in the next patch for sure; if we ever do them, it won't be for a while.
We have some ideas on how they could be best implemented and where they could be used, but it's a much bigger consideration than simply adding a field and a UI screen. (To wit: If you create a Drow subrace, you then have to go through the game and change all of the drow creature files to use that same subrace; you have to make sure that all spells and effects that are supposed to affect drow still affect them, and you have to make sure that scripts still function with the new race.)
This doesn't mean that it won't ever happen, but if it does happen it will have to be handled carefully, which means that it will probably not be a priority until other more urgent things have been dealt with.
i have to admit im much happyier knowing exactly were this issue/feature stands in regards to the overal project. I think it benefits everyone to have information like this