Which is the better option between a Blade and a F/M and why?
georgelappies
Member Posts: 179
Planning on playing an Elf Blade or F/M, so no dual classing as I want to be able to use all class abilities from the start.
Which one of these will be the most fun option yet will still be viable in ToB?
What can the Blade do that the F/M can’t and vice versa?
0
Comments
Both are fun.
Do you prefer melee or do you prefer spell-slinging?
In ToB, the F/M will have access to 7th, 8th and 9th level spells, while the Blade will fall behind in terms of spell power but will gain a better support song. Will you be using spells, or a have a party full of melee dudes in ToB?
The F/M gets fighter HLAs, access to level 7,8,9 spells, eventually better THAC0 and hit points.
Both are strong characters, and will be viable throughout the game. The stances probably give the blade a very slight edge early on, but better access to arcane magic means the F/M ends up significantly more powerful by TOB.
The main thing, though, is thinking which of the above abilities sound more fun to play with/ RP as for you.
Blade is a bit lame at the moment with the fixing of various bugs which allowed blades to be competitive.
While ultimately weaker then the swashbuckler (barring exploits), they can still put forth a good showing, but are lacking vs the few enemies requiring +4 or higher weapons....they can still do just fine...they just lag behind vs other options (replacing epic bard song with WWA as they did with the swashbuckler's assassination would go a long way of not only fixing a glaring oversight that effectively removes the Blades's main disadvantage (Bard's are still worse fighters then Skalds, and jester's don't take improved song since doing so turns them into normal bards, i.e. worse then Skalds..Skald of course should have their spellcasting penalized but...I'm tired of repeating all the stupid design decisions...I have several lists people can easily reference with search)), but also reduce their reliance on speed weapons).
The lack of 7th+ plus spells is inconsequential, as the epic traps can duplicate a lot of the popular effects to varying degree (and 2nd Ed Bard's are supposed to reach 8th level casting....yet another thing left out in the hurried development of ToB). And you can always cast from scrolls.
Blade gets...
Defensive/Offensive Spin to help in fights
Pickpocket
And at high levels...
Time Stop Trap
Use Any Item to get to use some items they possibly can't normally
Enhanced Bard Song
Fighter/Mage on the other hand gets...
Exceptional Strength bonuses until a strength tome is used
Specialization in weapons for extra damage, hit bonuses and attacks
At high levels...
(Improved) Whirlwind Attack
Casting spells beyond the 6th level
Robe of Vecna is useable by Mage multiclasses
And like said by others, Gnome Fighter/Illusionist is quite powerful as they get an extra spell a day for each level and saving throw bonuses (Though you will not be able to use Nercomancy spells)
Carsomyr is obviously not something you should generally wield, but its situationally very useful as a debuffer, in the same way that archery isn't very good in BG2 but arrows of dispelling are situationally useful. I wasn't suggesting it as a main weapon for general use; its more what leapt to mind, obviously UAI offers a number of options.
I assume you mean swashbuckler=> mage is better? I know high level swashbuckler can cast from scrolls and wands but I don't think this reasonably counters actual spellcasting ability.
This must be a playstyle issue partly, because while I don't think 7/8/9 spells are the be-all-end-all, I certainly wouldn't call them "replicated" by spike and time traps, however useful they are.
Their to-hit bonus puts them only slightly behind a fighter, but their damage bonus allows them to cause more overall damage. Their AC bonus is almost like a permanently active Defensive spin at higher levels, and unlike the blade, they can specialize, which is almost like a permanent OS (minus the extra attack/Kai) and once they have UAI they can throw on any weapons they desire and then use their HLA traps, WWA (for enemies requiring +4 or higher, where the loss of speed weapons would otherwise hurt them), and use scrolls, items or Shakti figurine to replicate various spell effects (which people tend to concentrate on their best damage dealer anyway, which only a pure Kensai can rival a swashy in terms of shear damage caused and the swashy is a HELL of a lot more versatile).
Their DI is an at will true sight, their traps become extremely powerful nukes (with a save or die at 21+, in addition to deal ludicrous amounts of damage + a dot), their HLA traps can equal or exceed the more popular high level spells, the MASSIVE amounts of XP a single class thief gives for opening locks and traps (the reward amounts double at 11 and again at 16, and maybe 20 or 21...though I stopped paying attention after 16 since it was already ridiculous).
Due to the shoddy implementation of bards and their weaker then it should be spell progression, they really don't bring enough to table. They're pretty strong in the early game due to the ability to use wands, but in BG2 a swashy blows them away, especially with a pair of speed weapons (a blade can pull the same trick for the same number of attacks, but the swashy will be dealing 10 more damage PER ATTACK, and due to ridiculous thac0 for a rogue, hit more often then a blade will).
You can't replicate, from scrolls, being constantly buffed. Personally, spells like mirror image, contingency, stoneskin, PFMW, spell immunity, Improved Invisibility, Blur; arcane buffs give the blade durability much more than AC from defensive spin or from the swashbucklers bonus. The blades overwhelming tanking advantage is more important to me than an extra 6-8 damage per attack. Improved Song is also a nice buff.
The blade also doesn't need to worry too much about specialisation because he much more access to improved haste- and, if he just wants to duke it out, Tensers Transformation will take his THAC0 beyond a Swashbucklers. Its true that a swashbuckler is a superior plain, unbuffed fighter- but obviously a blade should be fighting under buff spells, in which case they are a far better tank which also delivers decent damange output.
I mean, I'd rather take a F/M, but a blade is still solid, because Arcane spells= win.
Even if you leave out the HLA traps, a pure swashy still has 6 more thac0 after all possible buffs (barring exploits), several uses of VERY strong thief only snares (like 10 per day or so at the end of the game), stealth at will (sneak in an obliterate the dangerous enemies on turn 1, eliminating the need for defenses at all), can completely ignore Illusions. And yes, even solo, the XP bonus matters (and if you're playing a party, it's even better). Swashy's benefits are level based and the faster they level the better. Only 4 enemies in the game would even need Tenser's and there's WAY more scrolls then that, + the Shakti figurine does basically the same thing once per day, so the ability to cast spells isn't really a bonus at all, and at the end of the day, the swashy will hit more often and MUCH harder.
There are infinite rings of air control which cast improved invisibility once per day...so..yeah...actually you can have an constant Imp. Invis at all times which makes you immune to spells, save vs enemies who can see through invisibility. HLA can grant massive save bonuses or immunity to death magic. Again, only 2 enemies in the game really warrant spell immunity due to their cheesyness and you can either use the 2 scrolls of protection from magic or scrolls of spell immunity in those cases.
Offense is the best defense....pure and simple.
Blades are flashy and unique, but fighter/mages get the job done faster and more effectively.
Now, regarding the whole swashbuckler tangent. Here's what the damage numbers look like. Note that I'm not factoring in THAC0 because by the time either pulls significantly ahead it's a non-issue. I'm also assuming a 22 Strength, because belts, and level 40 characters (which tends to favor the swashbuckler), and that the swashbuckler has access to Improved Haste (maybe through the Ring of Gaxx, or something).
Blade w/ Improved Haste + Offensive Spin
Scarlet Ninja To, 6x: 8 (base) + 3 (magic) + 10 (Str) + 2 (Offensive Spin) = 23
Belm, 2x: 8 (base) + 2 (magic) + 10 (Str) + 2 (Offensive Spin) = 22
Total: 182 damage
Swashbuckler w/ Improved Haste
Scarlet Ninja To, 6x: 4.5 (base) + 3 (magic) +10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) = 27.5
Belm, 2x: 4.5 (base) + 2 (magic) + 10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) = 26.5
Total: 218 (36 points up from blade)
Swashbuckler w/ Whirlwind Attack
Scarlet Ninja To, 9x: 4.5 (base) + 3 (magic) +10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) = 27.5
Belm, 1x: 4.5 (base) + 2 (magic) + 10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) = 26.5
Total: 274 (92 points up from blade)
So, what do we learn from this? Well, we learn that the blade isn't all that far behind the swashbuckler until the swashbuckler pops whirlwind attack. Once whirlwind attack comes into play, ZK's estimates of the damage differential are pretty much spot on. That said, one must keep in mind that whirlwind attack only lasts for 1 round, and every whirlwind attack could have been an extra spike trap, each of which deals an average of 70 (totally unblockable) damage. Now, to keep up his advantage for the entire duration of a major combat, the swashbuckler has to whirlwind, what, 2-5 times (depending on how many enemies there are)? That means that, of his 16 HLAs, the swashbuckler has to give up maybe 4 of them to ensure his lead is secure. Painful, but not unbearable so. I mean, who's gonna drop 10 spike traps in one battle anyway? Pretty sure the cap is 7 at once, and if you need to run away and drop more traps after the first 7, what the hell are you fighting?
Really, though, all that tells us is that nothing is going to survive against a prepared thief/bard at epic levels. So what if they're not prepared? What if it's one of those annoying "enter the room and immediately fight" encounters? The swashbuckler is less reliant on his traps to deal damage, so he has the advantage there. On the other hand, with no way to mitigate damage other than AC, and with AC being borderline useless in TOB even for AC-oriented kits, the swashbuckler could also get killed really, really fast. The blade, on the other hand, hides behind low-casting-time buff spells, like Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and Protection from Magic Weapons, rendering him basically immune to the first 20 or so hits or four rounds of attacks (more if he recasts, which isn't difficult). Basically, the swashbuckler gets to deal 50% more damage per round, but in return he takes upwards of 5-10 times more damage (that's an estimate, folks; exact numbers will vary based on what's being fought). The swashbuckler's combat is over in 2/3rds the time, sure, but in that time he's taken more damage than the bard's taken in his last three fights combined. Because it turns out that sometimes the best defense is actually just a really freaking good defense.
Not to say the swashbuckler isn't great, mind you. Detect Illusion in particular is a really nice ability. But to say he can compete with the blade's sheer invulnerability... I'm just not buying that.
So no, I didn't factor that in. The third comparison point should actually look like this:
Swashbuckler w/ Whirlwind Attack
Scarlet Ninja To, 9x: 4.5 (base) + 3 (magic) +10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) -4 (Whirlwind) = 23.5
Belm, 1x: 4.5 (base) + 2 (magic) + 10 (Str) + 2 (Specialization) + 8 (Kit) -4 (Whirlwind) = 22.5
Total: 234 (52 points up from blade)
Ouch. That hurts the swashbuckler considerably. That's only 16 more damage than if he hadn't used whirlwind. I'm not even sure that's worth the time it takes to push the button.
I now have some more questions (which is actually a sign of great answers given):
1. Is the Blade the best weapons based bard that can use spells or should I consider other types of bards as well.
2. The Swashbuckler is a thief kit right? So it has no spells correct?
3. Will the bard kit I may choose keep getting something every few new levels or so at the end of the game. It is always nice getting something new on a level.
4. The fighter / mage will keep on getting new abilities until the end of the game correct. Even if it is only some more spellls.
5. Are there enough XP in the game for a f/m to get to level 9 spells and all the hla for fighters and mages?
Thanks for all the insightful replies so far.
2. Correct. The swashbuckler is a thief kit and therefore doesn't get spells.
3. The bard kits will get new stuff about as often as anyone. If you count spell slots and additional uses of HLAs you already have, you'll get new stuff every level. If not, then every few levels until somewhere in TOB, when you'll have all the good HLAs already. That problem will persist for almost anything you can play, though.
4. The fighter/mage will get new abilities at a very similar rate to the bard. So, uh, see above.
5. 9th level spells, definitely. All the HLAs, not so much. You should be able to pick up all the good ones, though. It does somewhat depend on whether or not you're running with a full party.
That said, you could thoroughly enjoy a Blade. It's a fun kit. And it's nice to have some of the Bard skills.
But for powergaming I would go with F/M.
in bg1 f/m or f/i > blade but there is not that big of a difference
difference
blade -
hla uai
offensive spin doing max dmg per hit
f/m
better thaco
better apr at levels fighter 7 and 13
better specialization further improving apr
higher spell level
mage hla better than bard
fighter hla better than bard
f/i
can't use necromancy
+1 spell per spell level /rest
better ST coz gnome
but i actually woud go blade for more RP purpose or even jester for chaos song
Pre-trapping Demogorgon's lair, on the other hand would actually be pretty much legit, since you're told exactly what you're dealing with and have to specifically release him in order to even fight him (and it's no different then a mage loading up CC HW, with a 3 LR sequencer and one-shotting him the moment he appears or using sequencers or contingencies in general.....you had foreknowledge and set things up just like pre-trapping).
On the other hand....stealthing in to see what you're dealing with, and then leading enemies into traps is just the proper way to use them.
just saying that using traps is the same result as ctrl+y if you can kill anything in fraction of a second