Except that they're a deliberate part of the game that you're ignoring for the purposes of your recommendations. Without even mentioning that you're doing it. I'm sorry, but to me that sounds a lot like trying to decide for someone else.
Look, I agree that they're heinously overpowered, especially when you drop more than one or two at a time. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that blades are worse than fighter/mages because blades get a more powerful ability. It's fair to say they're cheap, or unfair, or overpowered to the point of being boring, but none of those are what you said. You said they were less powerful, which you now appear to agree isn't true. So if you weren't trying to get the OP to not use spike traps, what were you trying to do by ignoring their existence? I'm honestly confused here.
Arcane spells are like using ctrl+y.....so you shouldn't use those either....a single class Kensai is like using ctrl+y, so you shouldn't use that either. A single class swash-buckler is like using ctrl+y, so you shouldn't use that either. Improved haste on a fighter is like ctrl+y, shouldn't use that either. Playing any class in the game is like using ctrl+y, you shouldn't use those either. Using any kit is like using ctrl+y shouldn't use those either. Playing a solo character with all 3's is like using ctrl+y, shouldn't play those either (I've actually done this last one......though a mage/sorc needs to pick/cast find familar at creation or Tamoko will kill you in the ambush cutscene)).
Cheese is the gap between pen and paper and the computer. If a DM would prevent what you want to do in a pen and paper game then it's likely to be cheese. In a computer game like baldurs gate you are your own DM and everyone does that different which is okay; you're only a DM for your own game.
Really need to see less of people telling other people how to play on these forums, BG is a game with such a varied experience depending on the desires of the player that it just makes no sense to expect others to play the way that we do. In my own experience my experience has changed so much over time that month to month you'd see little agreement between past me, present me and probably future me let alone with other people.
Planning on playing an Elf Blade or F/M, so no dual classing as I want to be able to use all class abilities from the start.
Which one of these will be the most fun option yet will still be viable in ToB?
What can the Blade do that the F/M can’t and vice versa?
If you play BGEE don't pick a blade. They nerfed his spins so badly that he's far behind the warrior. If you're not playing BGEE then the blade will level up quicker, be more useful early game and you'll be better in close combat for most of the game.
In BGEE they nerfed offensive spin so that you can't use haste with it. So you have to pick between 4 extra APR (Improved haste) or maximum damage per hit. In the original game you can have both.
BGEE : Pick F/M Original BG 2 : Bard got lore, pickpocket and song. And end game both will be powerhouses.
@Wowo they're not saying he can't play the way he wants to, they're saying he shouldn't give flawed advice based on personal bias that completely excises a classes legitimate abilities, within a comparison between two classes. Otherwise, they should remove F/M arcane spell casting, since combined with fighter melee ability, it completely trivializes the game content.
@SionIV They didn't nerf...they corrected, OS was NEVER supposed to stack with haste. And the difference between is 1 attack overall (the extra half-attack from the Pwnage-gauntlets puts you at 1 less attack then pre-correction OS would've, which it also combines a kai effect, so as long as the fighter isn't a part-kensai, the Blade will deal more overall melee damage despite being an attack short).
@Wowo they're not saying he can't play the way he wants to, they're saying he shouldn't give flawed advice based on personal bias that completely excises a classes legitimate abilities, within a comparison between two classes. Otherwise, they should remove F/M arcane spell casting, since combined with fighter melee ability, it completely trivializes the game content.
@SionIV They didn't nerf...they corrected, OS was NEVER supposed to stack with haste. And the difference between is 1 attack overall (the extra half-attack from the Pwnage-gauntlets puts you at 1 less attack then pre-correction OS would've, which it also combines a kai effect, so as long as the fighter isn't a part-kensai, the Blade will deal more overall melee damage despite being an attack short).
I can see that you don't understand what i'm saying.
We're not talking about 1 APR from haste. We're talking about doubling your APR with improved haste.
"OS was NEVER supposed to stack with haste" By saying this you're also saying.
Fighter Swashbuckler Paladin Ranger
Are all better in close combat than the blade.
It doesn't matter if it was supposed to or not. By letting offensive spin stack with haste they put the blade up to having a chanse to stand next to swashbucklers and our fighters. They still weren't as good in melee (As 8 APR + critical strike is better than 8 APR and offensive spin). But they still were able to join the top.
[Edited] : And you will always have FoA in your main hand, so you'll always pick improved haste over offensive spin. So now you tell me, should it be so that you never use offensive spin because improved haste is better? The main reason to pick a blade can be thrown away when you reach level 6 spells?
@SionIV I agree with you and have made the same observation in the past. Almost exactly the same thread and very similar conversation, maybe I'll try to dig it up ...
@SionIV I agree with you and have made the same observation in the past. Almost exactly the same thread and very similar conversation, maybe I'll try to dig it up ...
Arcane spells are like using ctrl+y.....so you shouldn't use those either....a single class Kensai is like using ctrl+y, so you shouldn't use that either. A single class swash-buckler is like using ctrl+y, so you shouldn't use that either. Improved haste on a fighter is like ctrl+y, shouldn't use that either. Playing any class in the game is like using ctrl+y, you shouldn't use those either. Using any kit is like using ctrl+y shouldn't use those either. Playing a solo character with all 3's is like using ctrl+y, shouldn't play those either (I've actually done this last one......though a mage/sorc needs to pick/cast find familar at creation or Tamoko will kill you in the ambush cutscene)).
don't know what are you doing
traps are just plain OP any mage can use arcane spells so why is this ctrl+y kensai swash improved haste other kits are part of the normal game and not OP
i am not saying what someone can and can't do in their own game but explaining why traps are kind of lame because of OPness
for example if there was a limit of 1 trap/screen it would balance the game so much
Can someone from PnP stand point tell me how do you set traps in PnP?
Loved that discussion! a real pleasure to read it back (i always had myself an interest in all those funny classes). ^
Just a pity BGEE1 was not as initially fine tuned as i hoped regarding the Blades and such (honestly, a real pain in the *ss to play a (BG1) low level Blade as nothing had alas really been made to really adapt its class to it, without talking about the initial major bugs related to them, like the initially broken DS, etc.. (btw.. specific lore better too now? -low level elfic armor more easily available?-, etc), in prevision to the big one everyone is waiting for too i guess (BG2EE) ; to make a Blade (or SB, or any specific other kits, etc) straight from BG1EE to (import) BG2EE...
anyway, i noticed that progresses have been made apparently since the last 6 months, a new 'much better' (final?) patch is on its way i read quickly somewhere else too.. maybe i will have at last a maximum pleasure to play smoothly (at least once^) from the very low levels of BG1EE to the high lands of BG2EE and more with the same (exotic/kits) build, with always the same pleasure... wait & see! ^
it is not EE that made playing from low levels to high levels a hard thing dualing in bg1 is really hard if you would like to achieve a good level in first class
that's why IWD2 is soo great for this
for easy low level - high level you need multiclass like fighter/mage fighter/cleric because of smooth transition when level up
I've been reading most of this, and I've been seeing stuff about traps, and I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but did you know that your normal thief traps will actually do much more damage than the HLA thief traps?
I was fighting demogorgon once with the original tougher demogorgon, and I used all 7 spike traps, and it would only bring him down to badly injured, then I reloaded, got rid of all the spike traps, and just laid down 7 normal thief ones, and it killed him instantly, so from that day on, I never selected HLA traps every again ( normal traps do more damage than spike, too many enemies immune to fire/ high magic resistance for fireball traps < although im not 100 % sure if MR applies for the fire ball one> and the time stop trap I've never seen any use for since you cant do damage when time is stopped) but in the end the only time I use traps ever, is to kill all the coweled wizards in Athkatla, makes it much easier to get around town, plus you can get some cOoOoOoL items and spells
@zur312 and any thief can use traps. And they're gained as part of the normal game.
And as for PnP, the same way, except EVERYONE can set traps (it's in the rogue skill pool, but anyone can buy it, it just costs double points for non-rogues, except rangers who can pick it for normal cost). You scout ahead, find the enemy, decide if it's worth the effort, check your surrounding for what kind traps you could set up, set up traps and lead enemies back into them. Though you need to keep components to make then on hand (hence the thief's limited number of traps per day), otherwise you're limited to improvised traps which rely completely on what you have available. And at 18+, thieves can use scrolls and wands as part of the construction process to give them an extra effect, but adds a penalty to the roll equal to the spell's level (you'd need ***** trap making to have a chance of making a trap with a 9th level spell) (Bards can use scrolls, wands or their daily spells, while mages can do both as well, but due to the proficiency cost required it would require sacrificing a other abilities).
Yeah, sure, but using timetop with shapechange can kill anything in even less time.
Also? What if you get a crit when you back stabbed?? I am just saying that a thief never using traps would be like a cowboy never using his gun in a western!
That said, your game should be played your way. But don't tell me what's what!
Edit: in bg2ee, imp haste won't stack with os I think. Which means swashbuckler will be vastly better. Also, if you use wwa, you ought to use a high damage weapon, not a speed one!
Obviously....the speed weapons are for general usage since they eventually get up to +3 around the time +3 is more common (still stupidly rare), while the WWA are only the +4 and above enemies, for which you can use whatever weapon you like. Which means you need fewer WWA and can get more traps.
I've been reading most of this, and I've been seeing stuff about traps, and I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but did you know that your normal thief traps will actually do much more damage than the HLA thief traps?
I was fighting demogorgon once with the original tougher demogorgon, and I used all 7 spike traps, and it would only bring him down to badly injured, then I reloaded, got rid of all the spike traps, and just laid down 7 normal thief ones, and it killed him instantly, so from that day on, I never selected HLA traps every again ( normal traps do more damage than spike, too many enemies immune to fire/ high magic resistance for fireball traps < although im not 100 % sure if MR applies for the fire ball one> and the time stop trap I've never seen any use for since you cant do damage when time is stopped) but in the end the only time I use traps ever, is to kill all the coweled wizards in Athkatla, makes it much easier to get around town, plus you can get some cOoOoOoL items and spells
The damage a trap does is based on dice rolls, meaning that it comes down to chance. The fact that normal thief traps did more damage than spike traps that one time doesn't really mean anything, for the same reason that if you hit for 1 damage with a 2 handed sword and then for 4 damage with a dagger, you can't conclude that daggers do more damage than 2 handed swords.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "you cant do damage when time is stopped". It's been a long time since I played BG2, but I don't remember anything like that.
3. - Offensive Spin + Improved Haste - I can't think of any other class who has their class feature attacks per round increasing abilities(Grand mastery, Boon of Lathandar, etc) not stack with haste. Defensive spin I give you that one and retract that from my last post as that bug doesn't make any sense. I was more using it as an example.
Offensive spin never stacked with haste because it used haste to work. With the fix it still doesn't stack with haste, but now it no longer nerfs offhand attacks and initiative rounds.
I really don't remember how it worked personally, but I tend to trust @CamDawg on matters such as these, so it looks like you'll need to redo some of your calculations @SionIV
You can't do projectile or spell damage while time is stopped, but melee damage and on-hit effects on said weapons work just fine, as long as they're instant, rather then damage over time.
3. - Offensive Spin + Improved Haste - I can't think of any other class who has their class feature attacks per round increasing abilities(Grand mastery, Boon of Lathandar, etc) not stack with haste. Defensive spin I give you that one and retract that from my last post as that bug doesn't make any sense. I was more using it as an example.
Offensive spin never stacked with haste because it used haste to work. With the fix it still doesn't stack with haste, but now it no longer nerfs offhand attacks and initiative rounds.
I really don't remember how it worked personally, but I tend to trust @CamDawg on matters such as these, so it looks like you'll need to redo some of your calculations @SionIV
Yeah, there's some confusion about this. Haste, improved or otherwise, has never stacked with Offensive Spin. It's a bit deceptive since you still get a 'hasted' message in the feedback window but if you check APR you'll see that only one of them is ever in effect. All of the bitching about the Offensive Spin changes misses a big, underlying issue: in vBG2 you would lose offhand attacks, which is fixed in EE (and BG2FP for vBG2).
Comments
Look, I agree that they're heinously overpowered, especially when you drop more than one or two at a time. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that blades are worse than fighter/mages because blades get a more powerful ability. It's fair to say they're cheap, or unfair, or overpowered to the point of being boring, but none of those are what you said. You said they were less powerful, which you now appear to agree isn't true. So if you weren't trying to get the OP to not use spike traps, what were you trying to do by ignoring their existence? I'm honestly confused here.
Really need to see less of people telling other people how to play on these forums, BG is a game with such a varied experience depending on the desires of the player that it just makes no sense to expect others to play the way that we do. In my own experience my experience has changed so much over time that month to month you'd see little agreement between past me, present me and probably future me let alone with other people.
In BGEE they nerfed offensive spin so that you can't use haste with it. So you have to pick between 4 extra APR (Improved haste) or maximum damage per hit. In the original game you can have both.
BGEE : Pick F/M
Original BG 2 : Bard got lore, pickpocket and song. And end game both will be powerhouses.
@SionIV
They didn't nerf...they corrected, OS was NEVER supposed to stack with haste. And the difference between is 1 attack overall (the extra half-attack from the Pwnage-gauntlets puts you at 1 less attack then pre-correction OS would've, which it also combines a kai effect, so as long as the fighter isn't a part-kensai, the Blade will deal more overall melee damage despite being an attack short).
BGEE :
1 APR (Normal)
2 APR (Dual Wielding)
3 APR (Belm)
4 APR (Offensive spin)
BG 2:
1 APR (Normal)
2 APR (Dual Wielding)
3 APR (Belm)
4 APR (Offensive spin)
8 APR (Improved Haste)
BGEE : 4 APR and maximum damage per attack. Or 6 APR and no spin
BG2 : 8 APR and maximum damage per attack.
So if we look at it.
BGEE Fighter : 8 APR + Critical strike / 10 APR (Whirlwind)
BGEE Blade : 4 APR + Maximum damage / 6 APR
BG 2 Fighter : 8 APR + Critical strike / 10 APR (Whirlwind)
BG 2 Blade : 8 APR + Maximum damage per strike.
We're not talking about 1 APR from haste. We're talking about doubling your APR with improved haste.
"OS was NEVER supposed to stack with haste" By saying this you're also saying.
Fighter
Swashbuckler
Paladin
Ranger
Are all better in close combat than the blade.
It doesn't matter if it was supposed to or not. By letting offensive spin stack with haste they put the blade up to having a chanse to stand next to swashbucklers and our fighters. They still weren't as good in melee (As 8 APR + critical strike is better than 8 APR and offensive spin). But they still were able to join the top.
[Edited] : And you will always have FoA in your main hand, so you'll always pick improved haste over offensive spin. So now you tell me, should it be so that you never use offensive spin because improved haste is better? The main reason to pick a blade can be thrown away when you reach level 6 spells?
Here is the thread that I try to make a case that blade > F/M in BG1: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14881/bard-vs-fighter-mage/p1
Here I complain that blades are rubbish now that their "exploits" have been fixed: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17658/buff-blades#latest
Might be that one
traps are just plain OP
any mage can use arcane spells so why is this ctrl+y
kensai swash improved haste other kits are part of the normal game and not OP
i am not saying what someone can and can't do in their own game but explaining why traps are kind of lame because of OPness
for example if there was a limit of 1 trap/screen it would balance the game so much
Can someone from PnP stand point tell me how do you set traps in PnP?
a real pleasure to read it back (i always had myself an interest in all those funny classes). ^
Just a pity BGEE1 was not as initially fine tuned as i hoped regarding the Blades and such (honestly, a real pain in the *ss to play a (BG1) low level Blade as nothing had alas really been made to really adapt its class to it, without talking about the initial major bugs related to them, like the initially broken DS, etc.. (btw.. specific lore better too now? -low level elfic armor more easily available?-, etc), in prevision to the big one everyone is waiting for too i guess (BG2EE) ; to make a Blade (or SB, or any specific other kits, etc) straight from BG1EE to (import) BG2EE...
anyway, i noticed that progresses have been made apparently since the last 6 months, a new 'much better' (final?) patch is on its way i read quickly somewhere else too.. maybe i will have at last a maximum pleasure to play smoothly (at least once^) from the very low levels of BG1EE to the high lands of BG2EE and more with the same (exotic/kits) build, with always the same pleasure... wait & see! ^
dualing in bg1 is really hard if you would like to achieve a good level in first class
that's why IWD2 is soo great for this
for easy low level - high level you need multiclass like fighter/mage fighter/cleric because of smooth transition when level up
And as for PnP, the same way, except EVERYONE can set traps (it's in the rogue skill pool, but anyone can buy it, it just costs double points for non-rogues, except rangers who can pick it for normal cost). You scout ahead, find the enemy, decide if it's worth the effort, check your surrounding for what kind traps you could set up, set up traps and lead enemies back into them. Though you need to keep components to make then on hand (hence the thief's limited number of traps per day), otherwise you're limited to improvised traps which rely completely on what you have available. And at 18+, thieves can use scrolls and wands as part of the construction process to give them an extra effect, but adds a penalty to the roll equal to the spell's level (you'd need ***** trap making to have a chance of making a trap with a 9th level spell) (Bards can use scrolls, wands or their daily spells, while mages can do both as well, but due to the proficiency cost required it would require sacrificing a other abilities).
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12328/what-damage-does-the-normal-thief-trap-do-and-other-trap-questions
Also? What if you get a crit when you back stabbed?? I am just saying that a thief never using traps would be like a cowboy never using his gun in a western!
That said, your game should be played your way. But don't tell me what's what!
Edit: in bg2ee, imp haste won't stack with os I think. Which means swashbuckler will be vastly better. Also, if you use wwa, you ought to use a high damage weapon, not a speed one!
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "you cant do damage when time is stopped". It's been a long time since I played BG2, but I don't remember anything like that.
I really don't remember how it worked personally, but I tend to trust @CamDawg on matters such as these, so it looks like you'll need to redo some of your calculations @SionIV
Short-term? Blade.
As there are mods to change things slightly, such as the complete spell progression for Bards to reach 8th level spells.
It may not give you Time Stop, but it'll give you a lot more than what you would get as a bard normally.
You can find it in the Modding section
Here is the link: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17442/avengers-rogue-rebalancing-mod-option