Max Thief Points Required

Wiggles

How many thief skill points would one need to open EVERY single locked item and remove EVERY trap in the entire BG series? No outside influences like potions, rings, spells, etc., just plain old natural skill points only.

I ask cause in my party of 4 people that will play when multiplayer is released, I rolled a 3 on a d4 and now I'm gonna be the team's thief. I'm thinking Elf Swashbuckler since I don't want to limit my skill points available and I can get 19 Dex right off the bat with a bonus in Longswords. Also we're only going to have the four players in the party, no NPCs.

Thank you very much!

Edit: I don't like back-stabbing in the BG games so please don't try to persuade me to be a pure thief or assassin. I'd rather spend my points in something that will help the entire party financially and safety wise. :P

Jarrakul

Not a ton. There is a small amount of chance involved, but once both are up to about 80 you can usually get everything. If you're dead set on never using potions, maybe get to 100 in each. That shouldn't be hard to do if you focus on it, since swashbucklers get full skill points.

elminster

Jarrakul said:

Not a ton. There is a small amount of chance involved, but once both are up to about 80 you can usually get everything. If you're dead set on never using potions, maybe get to 100 in each. That shouldn't be hard to do if you focus on it, since swashbucklers get full skill points.

This. Certainly no need to bother putting above 100 in either of those, instead put the points towards set traps, detect illusions, or pick pocketing. No point in putting points towards hide in shadows or move silently since you don't backstab and there are invisibility potions, spells, and rings galore in the series.

Wowo

I gotta say that a backstabbing thief is about my favourite build in BG1. Boots of Speed, decent stealth and a staff of striking lets you race off and solo most of a dungeon while clearing ... probably my favourite build for this is cleric/thief so you can have Find Traps spell active to find the traps while you're stealthed - or sanctuary while you're searching.

Possibly illusionist/thief would actually be more fun, I just haven't tried it yet. Invisibility+searching for traps and being ready with a big backstab is just too much fun.

In a 4 person party I'd definitely avoid a pure thief, a second caster whether divine or arcane will go a long way.

Kaltzor

From what I know of, 255 is the max pickpocket, 200 for Hide in Shadows, 100 for everything else.

Lord_Tansheron

100 is plenty enough. With high DEX you probably don't even need that much.

Also, keep in mind that Hide in Shadows is basically useless until you've maxed Move Silently.

Wiggles

So 100 in lockpicking and disarming trap will get me through all of ToB? Wow!! You can get that very early on too. After that than I guess what would be good for detect illusion?

Lateralus

Wiggles said:

Edit: I don't like back-stabbing in the BG games so please don't try to persuade me to be a pure thief or assassin. I'd rather spend my points in something that will help the entire party financially and safety wise. :P

Understood, but you must forgive me for prying. I'm confused as to why you view backstabbing as something that would not aid your entire party financially and help to keep them safe?

As a thief, stealth is a useful tool. You may scout ahead and warn your party of dangerous encounters. You may also sneak behind a spell caster and eliminate the threat with one fell swoop. You can also lead enemies away from your party and then duck behind a tree and hide! This tactic is as effective as many crowd control spells. All of these things keep your party safe and make them rich.

Most importantly, you do not need to spend an arm and a leg hitting 100 in both of the stealth skills. Shadow Armor and Boots of Stealth combine for a total bonus of 30 to hide in shadows and 20 to move silently. That's 50 free points, or two levels of points!

Most locks and doors can be bashed open with a 19 or better strength, and the tough ones can be opened with a 2nd level knock spell. Picking pockets will make you poorer by lessoning your reputation, that path is high risk-low reward. Traps, stealth skills, set traps, detect illusion, lock, and finally theft are the ways ro prioritize.

Freche

If you want to add some cheese to your party, spend points in set trap.
Me and a friend duo-ed the saga with two multiclassed characters, my friend who had the thief class got a couple of spike traps when we reached the bottom of WK, needless to say Demogorgon died the instant he got hostile. >:]

Kaltzor

The order I usually take the skills is 1st Pick Locks/Find Traps, 2nd Detect Illusion, 3rd Pick Pockets, 4th Hide in shadows/move silently and last Set Traps... Though if it's a thief/mage, stealth skills will be ignored as invisibility does the same thing.

Wowo

My approach to thief points is to always have 2 thieves. Then they can both get to ~50 in set traps, one gets open locks, the other detect traps and then the rest in move silently for both.

For a 4 person party is suggest something like:
Cleric/thief (Aule's Staff/Staff of Striking)
Illusionist/thief
Berserker 6/Druid 10 (Icingdeath/Rashads Talon)
Fighter/Illusionist

Then rather than having 1 of every class you end up with 2 of every class. 3 gnomes you say? Well they are the master race

Twilight_Fox

What about bg2?

I means, I know that in bg2 100% pickpocket is still relatively low for some target.. but what about the rest? Lets say that I reach 100% in each skill, is that Ok for the entire saga?

Kaltzor

From what I know of... 255 is the max pickpocket skill, then at 256 it bugs out and the game thinks it's 0. The game probably reads it as a two digit hex number, so going from FF to 100 it thinks 100 is 0.

elminster

Twilight_Fox said:

What about bg2?

I means, I know that in bg2 100% pickpocket is still relatively low for some target.. but what about the rest? Lets say that I reach 100% in each skill, is that Ok for the entire saga?

You'd be fine with having 100 in each skill, the exception being really pickpocket. But you get so many points that this shouldn't be an issue unless you are an assassin/shadowdancer (even then it just will take more planning and time). Also pickpocket is by no means a crucial skill, more of a nice benefit.

Quartz

Fair warning, if you are determined to max out Find Traps and Open Locks just to be safe, make sure to get them to 95, no more, no less ... Once you use the Dexterity Tome which is pretty late game, they will both boost up to 100. Just a way to save 10 more points, haha.

JuliusBorisov

I'll try to answer the starting question.

100 (with the Tome) in Disarm Traps and Open locks is enough to successfully overcome these nasty things that are deadly traps and closed containers in the entire game. But there're several (only few) exceptions when 100 doesn't help. In BG:EE it's the trap in Durlag's Tower on the alter where you get the Tome of wisdom - you can't disarm it no matter how many points you have, it's simply impossible to remove. In BG2 it's the trap on the painting in Neb's house, also I remember the floor traps in Gromnir's palace.

100 (with the Tome) in Set Traps and Detect Illusion gives you a 100 percent chance to succeed in both these skills when they are used.

With Pick-Pocket it's another story, though. It's not 100%, but 100. The value is set against another value for the person your character is trying to pick-pocket. When you're pick-pocketing, there's always at least one percent chance to be caught. But the more points in this skill the better (although you shouldn't put more than 255 in it). But even if you have 255 in this skill there's still a chance (1%) to fail. In the end, if you don't take risks, you don't drink champagne.

bbear

For BG2, my thief would pick in this order: Find Trap, Lock Pick, ~100 Move Silently, ~100 Hide in Shadow, Set Trap, Detect Illusion (if my Inquisitor/priest/mage dont have enough True Sight/Seeing), then max out Move Silently and Hide in Shadow.

Incidentally, a thief with no points in Set Trap will fail in HLA traps. However, a Bard will always succeed (bards cant allocate thief points to traps).

Does anyone know what is the penalty for trying to hide in shadow under sun light or bright area in dungeon?

Hark

I think I've has Open Lock and Find Traps fail at 100. But I think I stop around 125 because more is kind of pointless.

Personally, I find traps dangerous enough that I would keep raising it occasionally beyond that point in ToB. Better safe than sorry, and I find most of the thief skills useless so why waste the points on them in the first place.

Southpaw

Open Locks and Find/Disarm Traps is a must for at least one thief.
Set Traps can be very powerful, if you know what comes ahead and want to put up with the tactic.
Hide in Shadows+Move Silently = your backstabbing thief's bread and butter.
the rest is more for flavor.

I usually pick a way to go with my thief (as I usually play thieves anyway) and then focus on it. If backstabber - stealth. If more ranged or swashbuckler - traps.
For utility skills, I like to keep Imoen or Monty in the party and have one focus on Traps, while my main char opens locks.

...and yeah - max them at 95%, because once you get the tome of dexterity, they will get a 5% bump.

FinneousPJ

Kaltzor said:

From what I know of... 255 is the max pickpocket skill, then at 256 it bugs out and the game thinks it's 0. The game probably reads it as a two digit hex number, so going from FF to 100 it thinks 100 is 0.

Most likely it's a byte (8 bits), so there is no 256 and it wraps around.

Anyways, 100 % open locks and find traps sounds great to me.

zur312

i would strongly suggest thief/ilusionist because he is so frigging powerfull

improved invisibility hasted backstab?
hidden fireballs?
web
emotions
mirror images
arrows <--------- OP
bolts <-------- pretty sick too
he can easily solo everything in the game without any support and is probably the most usable support class
even easiest solo class but it is hard to match fighter/ilusionist raw power so maybe 2nd best

PugPug

bengoshi said:

In BG2 it's the trap on the painting in Neb's house, also I remember the floor traps in Gromnir's palace.

Can those be done with sufficient skill, or are they like the one in Durlag's Tower?

JuliusBorisov

@PugPug

Sorry, I've seen your question only now. But it's better later than never, isn't it?

Regarding the trap on the painting in Neb's house and the floor traps in Gromnir's palace - they can't be disarmed regardless of your skill. But BG2 fixpack or G3 fixpack fix it.

Drayen

Only thing you cant 100% reliably disarm is the trap in the asylum dungeon that one shots you, the walls that collapse on you, ive failed to remove them at 100, just avoid them : P