Minimum Quests needed to beat BGEE ?
franco
Member Posts: 507
If we could identify the activities in BGEE as 1) Main (Story line) Quests, 2) NPC Quests and 3) Other (explorations)
I'd like to know what members who have completed BG1 or BGEE at least once think is the Minimum Requirement to beat the game (I've also just edited this to mean "without any cheats").
1) Can it be completed with just Main (Story line) Quests (such as Nashkel Mines, Bandit Camp, Cloakwood Mines etc)?
2) Can it be completed with Main Quests and Minimal party member NPC Quests (such as Minsc's, Coran's quests)?
3) Must it be completed with Main Quests, Minimal NPC Quests and Minimal Exploration (Exploration is exploring a countryside where there is no evidence from the Main story line or party NPC requesting you to go there, or Firewine Bridge, or Ulcaster School etc).
Remember, the operative phrase is Minimum Requirement to beat BGEE. In all cases, it would be good to expand on your answers and to give your reasons. I think we can agree it would be very informative to all members, whether they have completed the game or not, to hear your thoughts on this.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19197/a-playthrough-with-the-randomized-npc-recruit-roll#latest
I'd like to know what members who have completed BG1 or BGEE at least once think is the Minimum Requirement to beat the game (I've also just edited this to mean "without any cheats").
1) Can it be completed with just Main (Story line) Quests (such as Nashkel Mines, Bandit Camp, Cloakwood Mines etc)?
2) Can it be completed with Main Quests and Minimal party member NPC Quests (such as Minsc's, Coran's quests)?
3) Must it be completed with Main Quests, Minimal NPC Quests and Minimal Exploration (Exploration is exploring a countryside where there is no evidence from the Main story line or party NPC requesting you to go there, or Firewine Bridge, or Ulcaster School etc).
Remember, the operative phrase is Minimum Requirement to beat BGEE. In all cases, it would be good to expand on your answers and to give your reasons. I think we can agree it would be very informative to all members, whether they have completed the game or not, to hear your thoughts on this.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19197/a-playthrough-with-the-randomized-npc-recruit-roll#latest
Post edited by franco on
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Best time, hard difficulty: 0:21:31 by Benjamin 'beenman500' Culley on 2009-01-03, done in 8 segments.
here is without potion duping
"Baldur's Gate 1: Solo Bard. Part 1."
"It is not speedrun, so it's quite long, but i tried to make things time effective. Run time is: 45 min. Done in 8 segments. "
It is amazing that the game can be completed so fast though. It actually seems that it would be more difficult to do it quickly with a party.
If the in-game time is taken into consideration, some meta-knowledge can't be used - if you don't want to waste time (and lose the speed competition) you can't go to an area with a powerful item or some relatively easy EXP if this area has nothing to do with the main storyline. For ex, the basilisk area, the sirens' area, new NPCs' quest areas are out of your reach.
If the in-game time is taken into consideration, you can't abuse resting (it's better to rest as little as possible) and thus multiple traps, memorized spells, active abilities with limited number of uses per day are unavailable.
Also you can take only those NPCs who you meet during your main adventure (no Dynaheir, no Shar-Teel etc).
So, when I hear about "how to beat BG with minimum time" I think about the in-game time and that's why I think that the mimimum quests are only the main quests and accompanying side quests. By the way, it's a great challenge and a new dimension to look at this game - while everyone is relatively low-level, tired and has no memorized spells (only scrolls, potions and wands) beating the quest enemies becomes more interesting for sure.
"if you don't want to waste time (and lose the speed competition) you can't go to an area with a powerful item or some relatively easy EXP if this area has nothing to do with the main storyline. For ex, the basilisk area, the sirens' area, new NPCs' quest areas are out of your reach."
Sometimes it's worth to get into an area for a very powerful item or some amazing experience. Because the item will make your fights later on much faster, and the experience will let you level up and get new abilities that can help you along the road.
Sometimes it's worth sacrificing 5 minutes early on, if it means you can win 10 minutes through the whole game with it.
You can't complete a Dark Souls speedrun with a good time if you don't take a path to get the Black Knight Halberd. Because even if you spend some time on getting it, it's going to make the rest of the game much faster.
I pretty much agree with you on the other points.
And in Beregost if you get Algernons cloak you can just run past most boss fights.
[Edited] : Speedruns should not be taken after In-game time. Then the winner will always be a fighter that go from friendly arms in up to the basilisk area, clear the whole farm level up to 5-6 and then walk through the whole game.
1.) Go to friendly arms in
2.) Pick up ring of wizardry
3.) Clear Ankhegs and level up to 5-6
4.) Go to beregost on your way to nashkel and sell your ring and pick up a full plate
5.) go down to naskel and buy a large shield +1
6.) Kill greywolf on your way to the mine to loot Varscona.
And after that you can run through the main quest.
The reason speed runs are interesting are because it's real time, and you might end up taking some classes you wouldn't have thought about else. A halfling thief with good stealth and Algernons cloak would work wonders.
I mean no offense and it's a great idea, but with in-game time the only possible way to do it would be a fighter.
Also, thanks @SionIV. Good add.
So this won't help you in the end. A party that didn't go this route and went from the Crossroads map straight to the High Hedge and after that - straight to Beregost (that is on the road to Nashkel) will be a winner. If you count the in-game time, then you'll have a chance to go to the area with the Ogre fetishist - the FAI - the Ankhegs map only after killing Tranzig - it's the shortest way to the Bandit camp.
The travelling time is big in this game and if you follow the in-game time the winner won't always be a fighter - it can be any class - the win will fully be a result of the player, not his character.
But of course, there can always be two points of view how to determine a speed run.
I'd like to go back now a little closer to my original question, since you've both helped to frame it even more clearly now. @bengoshi and @SionIV, and anyone else who would like to tackle this.....
"If this is NOT a speed run, and you are interested in the ability of the player to beat BGEE by just going through the story-line quests only, without diverting to any other map in order to pick up special items or experience. Do you think it can be done? (I understand that your power level will be lower than on the speed runs that have been described). "
Aside from this being a very interesting question, I'll give you a reason that I have to be concerned with it. I am especially interested in creating random systems based on dice rolls, to make the game more uncertain, more difficult and more of a challenge. BG is a wonderful game (the greatest), until you get to know where everything and everyone is, and then interest begins to sag for me. My thought is to permit a challenge where you can go freely on the maps that are directly related to the story line, but to have a random roll element involved as to whether or not you actually undertake the other maps (perhaps a roll based on INT or WIS). In case the random rolls eliminated all the other maps (which is not likely) and many of the related items became out of bounds, do you estimate that the character can possibly finish the game by travelling on the story-line quest maps alone? I'd be interested in your thoughts about it. Incidentally, do you think this idea is interesting?
2.) By going early to friendly arm in you can pick up Jaheira and Khalid before they dump their profficiency in all kind of shit. If you're going from starter map to hedge and to beregost you will have Montaron, Xzar and kivan.
3.) And no the winner will be a fighter. You can't pick a spell casters and rogues won't be powerful enough in BG1 to do it without going to the areas around to get gear. If you're going with anything other than a fighter, you will pick up NPC's along the way that can do it for you.
In BG1 the fighter (Paladin and ranger included) is the king. And you're already locking out all spell dependant classes because you can't rest. So that leaves you with the rogue, which is inferior to the fighter without having the option to go out and hunt for gear.
So no it's not "It can be any class". It's either going to be CHARNAME as a fighter that will win it for you, or a fighter NPC. Remember all caster npc's are useless in this challenge.
It's a fresh idea! It will overcome the negativeness of some meta-knowledge, will make INT or WIS important and will give new impressions. It's an interesting concept and it is worth trying at least once by those who seek something new to dilute their usual way of playing.
I'm absolutely sure the party, even with all 6 members where someone is a multiclass, can finish the game by travelling on the story-line quest maps alone. But it will be harder, no question about it.
The reality of facing Mulahey and kobolds with critical hits at the level 1 with no more than 20 HP will force you to think more. Completing the Bandit camp with 2-3 level party and no powerful spells can be an achievement also. And how about the Cloakwood areas: some wyvern ambushes against your high THACO and little HP? And all this without reloads? Tasty!
I'm really excited about this idea. The more I think about it the more I like it.
It is part of a group of Randomizing suggestions that I'm making for players who enjoy this kind of approach to construct a Challenge game. One suggestion is a CHAR based Randomized NPC Recruit Roll. The other is a CON based randomized Limited Reload rule. I hope you take a look at them. Enjoy.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19360/an-int-wis-based-random-exploration-roll#latest
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19197/a-playthrough-with-the-randomized-npc-recruit-roll#latest
Wow! Wondeful suggestions! Your input in that forum section deserves some credit ;-)
As soon as I've read about a CON based randomized Limited Reload rule I've decided to adopt it to my playing style.
Right now I'm on the way to find out how it is really to beat BGEE by attending only those areas that must be visited as a part of the main story.
To make the results more telling, I'm trying not to waste any in-game time at all (and thus no XP farming) and to use PC's and NPC's CON to determine the number of reloads with the insane difficulty (and thus preventing me from ankhegs fights - with the danger of a severe damage as well as a bad saving throw with not maximum HP I can't risk using one of the limited reloads) . Thinking about decreasing some cheese I've decided it can be a 6-member party (and thus not much fast EXP for the each one) with two mages - despite there can be no rests they still can cast spells from the scrolls (and the fact that the number of the scrolls is limited adds greatly to the concept - I should think twice if it's time to use the particular scroll now or it will be essential later on in a more difficult fight). Also they can use wands - it helps a lot. Because it's a speed game several thieves are needed in order to put their thieving skills into different skills without waiting till later levels.
So my party consists of: an elven F/T multiclass with CON 17 (starting 40 points are put into Open Locks in order to use a katana - a weapon with the maximum base damage for backstabs, thus he's specialized in this skill and at the 3rd level has 95 in it), Imoen (she's specialized in Disarm Traps and at the 4th level has 100 in it and now has started to improve Set Traps for the final fight), Kivan, Xzar, Montaron (he's specialized in Set Traps in order to 100% set two of them in the final fight and Neera (she has a gem bag so she must be included and after it she's a member of the party, I can't dismiss her due to the self-imposed rule - personally I don't like to kick out those who are included into the party of at least some time, moreover, she can cast illusion spells and Xzar is not able to do it).
Currently the party has come to the Cloakwood, area 2, and it took only 7 days. Levels: PC 2/3, Immy 4, Kivan 3, Xzar 3, Montaron 2/3, Neera 3. Reloads: 4, 2 of them because of PC, others because of Kivan - Greywolf (PC), Greywolf again (Kivan), Bandit Tent (PC), Cloakwood ambush with ettercaps (Kivan).
I want to emphasize just one thing about the Con based randomized limited Reload rule. The alternative rule I suggested was that it might be applied to NPC resurrections, (not reloads). The reason for this was so that it could still be called a minimum reload game, which means no reloading unless the PC dies. If a battle is otherwise a disaster, it remains that way.
But of course, you should be free to adapt the suggestions in whatever way makes your gameplay most pleasing to you. That's always the goal. You already adopted a more difficult approach than I suggested in the (Int/Wis) based Randomized Exploration rule. The reload rule the way you're using it for NPCs could very well compensate for the increased difficulty level you've chosen for exploration.
I like to think of the NPCs sometimes like basketball players in the NBA. Near the end of the game they might be in danger of fouling out. So it keeps the excitement level up a bit.
@bengoshi, please keep letting us know how your run through is going. I'm really interested in as much information you can give us. All the best.
It took only 15 days and 5 hours in-game time and was accomplished with 6-man party.
It was a very fun adventure. Especially when Neera summoned a demon and became held while trying to cast the Friends spell in FAI on the way to BG. She was dead in a matter of seconds.
The group consisted of an elven multiclass fighter/thief (level 5/6 with 22000 exp in each class at the end) , Imoen (dualled to a mage after the Cloakwood Mines because I didn't need her thieving abilities any longer as the main character caught the needed stats - and because a mage can use wands - the real key to a successful run with low-level characters, details ahead), Monty, Xzar, Kivan and Neera.
The group hasn't rested at all (I mean, not even once). The current level gained from fights till completing the Cloakwood Mines was enough to not feel any major troubles - I bought any healing potion available at temples and shops and used the wands I came across during the playthrough.
The concept of this run was to save in-game time, so I had access to only those areas that are parts of the main quest.
Upon reaching BG, the group went to Sorcerous Sundries and bought as many wands as they could (2 wands of paralyzation, two wands of frost and three wand of MM). These wands has made the game for me.
Although it became harder while doing Iron Throne quests in terms of the melee power of the group was not enough and the number of spells was VERY limited (only those scrolls that I could find and some I bought), the wands helped greatly.
The strongest enemies were 2 Skeleton Warriors in the labyrinth (they had very good resistance and couldn't be paralyzed). So, nearly 7 uses of a wand of Monster Summoning was needed to overcome them.
The final battle had two parts. In the first one, the main hero used the scroll of Protection From Magic so that Semaj couldn't touch him. Gradually, by using everithing available, he went down.
In the second part creatures summoned by a wand distracted Sarevok while Imoen, Xzar and Neera tried to paralyze him in turn, Monty, Kivan and the main character fired arrows and bullets. And when there were only 3 uses left, Imoen FINALLY managed to succeed and Sarevok failed his saving throw against his Sister.
He was killed by a summoned war dog, though;-) Such a pathetic end, really.
Yeah there is. Works pretty much the same as the one they used in BG2. Double enemy damage, and halves damage you deal. the only difference between BG1 and BG2 difficulty is that they removed the line about lower then Core reducing xp gained, since that feature was removed just before release of BG1, and they never bothered to correct dialog box.
Your description of how you accomplished your successful run is very useful to anyone who even contemplates a speed type game of this type. I'm going to save your thread because of all the useful information you included, and I hope to refer to it in posts from time to time.
Some very interesting aspects of your run:
1. No rests the whole game. So for the sake of speed you gave up all normal spell casting and had to rely on many wands and scrolls.
2. No cleric. So you must have stocked up on a really large stack of healing potions.
3. Since you had three mage characters, you must have been very aggressive with the wands and scrolls, and this may have also decreased the damage to your party and the need for healing.
4. It was an important question whether using only the story line maps would give you enough experience points to get through the later stages, and you affirmed that also.
Again @bengoshi, congratulations. To me it was a very special accomplishment.
Based on my goal of creating a challenge game for BGEE, featuring a series of randomizing rules, your run is also evidence that one of those rules, giving the party access to the story line maps, and a random type roll to explore other areas, is very feasible.
During the playthrough I found only 3 scrolls of identification and much more magical items so it's a valid question. Xzar due to his good WIS and INT could identify some minor of these items (such as +1 weapons).
To identify the rest I had to pay to the shopkeepers. Nearly any of them is able to identify weapon and armor. Gellana Mirrorshade at the Temple of Wisdom next to the Friendly Arm Inn is able to identify every wand, scroll, ring, belt and so on. Later I used to go the Sorcerous Sundries in the city of BG.
Sometimes I had no possibility to use a certain item before the party comes back to the proper person who can identify it. For example, items that could be found in the Cloakwood - I just carried them till the party returned to the FAI on the way to BG.
Money has never been a problem in this case. The price of identification of one item is only 100 gp so it's not too expansive. On the other side, I had to pay 1500 go here and 2000 go there - maybe that's why some great stuff like the dagger of Venom were out of my reach. But in the end it didn't matter much - I had enough money to buy the needed type and quantity of wands.