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Component Selection (BG:EE 1PP)

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  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    I will politely disagree, i will focus on the sprites somewhat, especially when i see them worse from the first game to the second. To each his own, but the pixelation in BG2 sprites was more evident, and i know that upscaling doesn't take pixelation away. Well maybe by adding blur, which is something that doesn't look good. A rotten apple won't become a better one, no matter how much you tweak it.

    In any way, BG is not about graphics yes, but if you imagine how much work it needed to create a BAM, you'll have to start wondering why put they put so much effort in something no one will focus on. Your character is something you will always see in the screen, if it's not important, why bother put it.

    Anyway, more on topic, i already said what i don't like about 1pp, but i also think that the devs should try to do something similar themselves to the sprites, alter some things here and there, 1pp does nothing for human male fighters and makes elven female clerics and fighters arguably worse. Why implement a mod for this work, you could just make the mod compatible with BG:EE for everyone that wants to use it and even recomment it. But ship it with BG:EE?

    It's pretty obvious that we won't see something graphically after 14 years, at least let's tweak the sprites a bit like some modders did, to give a different look. And by tweaking i don't mean replacing plate mail with chainmail.

    Don't use 1pp and call it a day.

    Someone asked Trent on twitter, how will human fighters will look in BG:EE? He wanted to know if the look would be from BG2 or BG1. Trent's answer was that they will implement 1pp that changes avatars a bit, but i don't understand why, 1pp doesn't touch human male fighters, and you won't notice a difference on the female fighter either.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I spend plenty of time. Once I assemble a cool looking armor + helm combo I occasionally take a moment to scope it out, especially when I get the Red Dragon Plate Mail and the Dragon Slayer Helmet together. Big, red, and practically immune to fire!
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Ward said:

    In BG1 females who are fighters had nice big chests and tight spandex. It's a shame 1PP doesn't uphold that. XD

    Haha! Really? Maybe I don't remember the BG1 sprites as well as I thought. Having trouble finding pics of the sprites on Google, too.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited July 2012
    @Mornmagor

    What I've come to realize is that it was a bit of a cheap trick to use 1PP in BG:EE. I don't think they realize how nobody wants the same thing. It seems like a lot of people want the original vanilla graphics and some like the BG2 graphics (not many though). I really don't want flaming swords or coloured quarterstaves for one, and for another I don't like the 1PP helmets.

    What I've been told is that the reason the original graphics can't be used is because dual-wielding wasn't available in BG1 and so whenever you try to dual-wield using the original graphics the game will crash. So the only way to fix it is somebody has to draw new animations.

    Maybe it would be time better spent if this was done instead of optimizing 1PP for BG:EE when some people may not even want it.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2012
    Yeah BG1 dual wielding is impossible. They are looking into it i think.

    The point is that 1pp adds stuff that not everyone cares about or likes, but i don't understand 2 things.

    Why are they using a mod to do this stuff? Shouldn't they do something like that in their own direction using the new art director? Tweak the things THEY want, even if it takes some more time, this is not new models any more, this is things modders did, like tweaking armors of sprites for simple armor variety.

    And of course, why force people to use a mod? If you like it that much make it compatible with BG:EE and even recommend it to people providing a link. But putting it in the game? I disagree 100%.

    I like everything else about BG:EE, but graphically, from visuals to sprites to whatever, after 14 years this is not something that should be happening. Source art lost or not, i am expecting (notice the present tense) something more than altering appearances through 1pp and calling it a day.

    Even like that, 1pp does nothing for many models we talked about in the previous posts.

    At least, i seriously hope we find a way to implement BG1 models in some way. /sigh
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited July 2012
    @Mornmagor

    Well the only time I realized that I really don't want any 1PP in BG:EE is when I saw how much better a lot of the original paperdolls/sprites are.

    The helmets from 1PP are shocking, because they aren't based off the original helmets but instead the BG2 helmets. You go play vanilla BG1 and you can see how nicely done they are there. But we have to give credit because the creator (whose name I can't spell) did put a lot of work into it and she is very talented.

    However, sponging off her talent by including it in a licensed game is very cheap. Every single effort should be made to create new animations for dual-wielding so that the original artwork can be used.

    It's not BG anymore if you use 1PP, because it doesn't look like BG.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2012
    Erephine is indeed very talented. I am against the idea of implementing mods into games as well. For many reasons like the ones presented.

    But in the end, i am expecting some more for sprites, not 1pp implementation in the game.

    About the helmets, i agree with you as well.

    I was pretty more taken aback when i saw some models having plate mail changed to chain mail in some parts, which looked kinda weird, since they used plate armor.

    Erephine likes chain mail, it's something she/he(?) wrote in the fixes as well, but it's personal preference.

    Erephine made infinty animations mod, after all, so at least i, have more than just respect for this author.
  • NathanNathan Member Posts: 1,007
    Mornmagor said:

    Why are they using a mod to do this stuff? Shouldn't they do something like that in their own direction using the new art director? Tweak the things THEY want, even if it takes some more time, this is not new models any more, this is things modders did, like tweaking armors of sprites for simple armor variety.

    Ward said:

    However, sponging off her talent by including it in a licensed game is very cheap. Every single effort should be made to create new animations for dual-wielding so that the original artwork can be used.

    Trust me when I say if we had all the time/money we wanted to do this game, then yes that would definitely be something we'd look at doing. However, time is the issue here insofar as time = money. We're a small development studio and while it'd be awesome to take an entirely original direction for this game, bang out entirely new animations and whatnot, we simply don't have the resources to do so at the moment.

    To try and explain it succinctly, the animations in the game come from renders/3d models which BioWare made back in the day and posed into different positions. Take snapshots and pile it into a file and there you go. We can't do new animations or add things very easily at all because the original resources are gone. IF we had those, then, not only would new animations and paperdolls based off the original renders be very easily possible, but we could have looked in to punching out a version of the game with higher definition assets and native resolution than what's there. But, as it stands... well.

    If/when we get a chance to do an original project, then of course there will be a big effort made to distinguish our own direction - we don't want to be simply re-using assets that are over a decade old...! We want to do the best we can with this game and the next so that we will obtain the resources to do exactly this sort of thing, and in the process release a version of these games that're more current, that will reach a new audience and provide the awesome mod community with even more options to realize the changes they want to include.

    @Ward, I take issue with you describing it as "sponging off [Erephine's] talent". We are in direct contact with her and she is graciously providing us with the fruits of her labour - it's not like we're just including this (or content from ANY mod) without giving credit where credit is due.

    As for it not being BG with 1pp included - all I can tell you is BG:EE will be mod friendly, and in a perfect world everyone will get the customized BG1 experience they want either directly from us or via the strong community.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited August 2012
    @Nathan And, we wish you the best of luck with this effort, like many others, i already pre-ordered BG:EE, and looking forward to it.

    I understand the problem with creating new stuff since it needs to be done from scratch and it's time consuming. I only pondered if you could do something similar with 1pp yourselves, aka alter some sprites here and there to add variety, basically what Erephine did for 1pp.

    The thing is, you make a new UI, the additions to the original game with the NPCs, tweaks in the engine, and all the other content of BG:EE. And although we would have hoped for something more graphically, this seems ok for BG1 and a good deal, especially if it can give you the power to create more in the future.

    But, don't you think it might be a problem with BG2:EE? The UI will be done from now, everything else except bug fixes will be set. So the only things practically made for BG2:EE will be more content story wise or character wise? It is pretty much a huge game already, not that i will complain. Or are you planning to tweak the graphics more for BG2? Because it seems like everything is practically being done now and for BG2:EE, it will be just bug fixes and npc/story additions.

    In other words, people will give 20$ or even more wth DLC for BG:EE, but will they give something similar for BG2:EE? If, the engine additions, the graphics and the ui is being made for BG:EE, do you think it's gonna be ok for BG2:EE as well, or you will revise and change more stuff?

    I was pretty interested if something more can be done with graphics, if it is possible to engineer a solution so that, if i want armor variety, i don't have to create everything new from scratch? Would it be possible through BAM editors via repaints or pixel replaces?

    P.S. We'll still be here to support BG2:EE as well, it's just that in my eyes a remake to more things probably means better sales as well, especially if it is to tempt newer people to play Baldur's Gate. They might see the dated graphics and go away.
  • RushAndAPushRushAndAPush Member Posts: 25
    I, personally support the inclusion of the 1PP mod. I find it unrealistic to expect a company and a team as small as the one currently working on BG: EE spending the time fidgeting with small pixels when they have a modder fully supporting them using the mod. In my opinion I would rather them finish optimizing the Infinity Engine to it's most full potential along with adding quality content to the game.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited August 2012
    Nathan said:

    Mornmagor said:

    Why are they using a mod to do this stuff? Shouldn't they do something like that in their own direction using the new art director? Tweak the things THEY want, even if it takes some more time, this is not new models any more, this is things modders did, like tweaking armors of sprites for simple armor variety.

    Ward said:

    However, sponging off her talent by including it in a licensed game is very cheap. Every single effort should be made to create new animations for dual-wielding so that the original artwork can be used.

    @Ward, I take issue with you describing it as "sponging off [Erephine's] talent". We are in direct contact with her and she is graciously providing us with the fruits of her labour - it's not like we're just including this (or content from ANY mod) without giving credit where credit is due.
    I apologize if you were offended, but it is a kind of sponging. I did not imply that it was used without consent, I am aware she is heavily involved in this endeavour. Because her assets are being used and due to the possibility that we as customers will have no control over the amount of her content being used, I am disappointed that, at the end of the day, the work required to fix the originals and add dual-wielding can't be done at this time.

    If 1PP was completely optional I'd say beauty, do it. It 'is' just sponging because the originals should be the ones used. If that is not possible, they should use the standard BG2 sprites and animations. Using her work rather than repairing what is already there just seems cheap to me whatever the reason might be (that rhymed).
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416
    But does BG:EE use 1PP directly, or does it borrow on 1PP but implement stuff in it's own way where no replacements are required, or other options are available.

    For example, there's a lot of negativity about 1PP where plate looks like chain. Will plate look like plate in BG:EE?
  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    I imagine they will try to get as close to the original BG art as possible in the time they have available.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160

    I, personally support the inclusion of the 1PP mod. I find it unrealistic to expect a company and a team as small as the one currently working on BG: EE spending the time fidgeting with small pixels when they have a modder fully supporting them using the mod. In my opinion I would rather them finish optimizing the Infinity Engine to it's most full potential along with adding quality content to the game.

    Sorry, i don't agree with that mentality.

    The argument can backfire, for example, some might find it unrealistic for a "small" company to do justice to Baldur's Gate.

    It is convenient to use a mod when the modder allows it yes, but in general i don't consider it an upgrade of any kind, since i would be able to download the mod anyway, or if it wouldn't work with BG:EE, i would stick to the original if i liked it that much.

    Spending time with small pixels is demeaning the subject. Sometimes, it is the small things that matter as well. How much do you think the Infinity Engine can be optimized? It's a 15 year old engine.

    Anyway, 1pp is fine and all to a small degree, but there are areas it doesn't even touch, i don't think they're going to do something about that.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited August 2012
    @RushAndAPush @Mornmagor

    I don't even know why it's legal for them to use 1PP in a retail game. Obviously it 'is' or else they wouldn't, but since 1PP was made using copyrighted content and released as freeware I don't understand how it can be sold. I'm not critizing or making rumours, I have to assume 1PP doesn't use any of the BG content.

    Their time IS well spent fiddling with tiny pixels because if they did that work, the game would be able to support the original Baldur's Gate animations. If this is not in their agreement, then I think the BG2 animations should be kept, 1PP remain optional and later patch the game.

    At the end of the day, I don't support 1PP because in order to uphold the originality and integrity of the game (the most important part of this project), the original avatars, paperdolls and sprites MUST BE restored and new ones must be made to compensate for the missing.

    It seems like all I'm doing is saying that Beamdog are doing a bad job, but they aren't. I believe that they're making a mistake including 1PP.

  • TalvraeTalvrae Member Posts: 315
    @Ward Would just like to point out that horned helmet never really was common place in any culture and for a good reason... They where more dangerous to your allies fighting beside you than for your ennemies, you where always enpting the chance than your brother in harm get the horn in an eyes.... In fact the Vivking never used them historically... It's just a way artist found out to kake the helmets look more menacings on theyr drawings
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    Ward said:


    Their time IS well spent fiddling with tiny pixels because if they did that work, the game would be able to support the original Baldur's Gate animations. If this is not in their agreement, then I think the BG2 animations should be kept, 1PP remain optional and later patch the game.

    At the end of the day, I don't support 1PP because in order to uphold the originality and integrity of the game (the most important part of this project), the original avatars, paperdolls and sprites MUST BE restored and new ones must be made to compensate for the missing.

    It seems like all I'm doing is saying that Beamdog are doing a bad job, but they aren't. I believe that they're making a mistake including 1PP.

    Beamdog cant make animations from scratch, thats a stone cold fact, they dont have not the money nor the time, so they are trying to find a middle ground here.. the MAJORITY of bg fans HATE bg2 animations ( including me, guilty ), so I dont think its fair to say that they are "sponging off" or a "cheap trick" - they are only trying to make the best solution for the current situation.

    Also if you dont like certain components, thats fine, for this there is this thread, they are listening to the fans, so point out what are you dont like the most and dont want to be implemented and maybe alot of people will join you witht he same opinion, but I dont think its right to say "Do it from scratch or dont do it all" - most of us fans were very happy when Trent said they are implementing 1pp mod.

    oh and I agree with you about the helmets, BG1 helmets are the best!

  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    You guys, you remember that 1pp does not alter animations right? :P

    The animations will still be the BG2 ones, since BG1 does not support dual wielding, and 1pp does not change that. Infinity Animations is the mod that brings BG1 animations back, but it won't be compatible since every graphic component will probably need to be upscaled to not look weird, or something.
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    Mornmagor said:

    You guys, you remember that 1pp does not alter animations right? :P

    The animations will still be the BG2 ones, since BG1 does not support dual wielding, and 1pp does not change that. Infinity Animations is the mod that brings BG1 animations back, but it won't be compatible since every graphic component will probably need to be upscaled to not look weird, or something.

    Yep, but it still can make them a little better.. specially the shields, I cant stand bg2 shields...
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Mornmagor

    Well, tecnically they do alter the animations in the sense that you can have flaming swords and the BG1 shields.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    edited August 2012
    Talvrae said:

    @Ward Would just like to point out that horned helmet never really was common place in any culture and for a good reason... They where more dangerous to your allies fighting beside you than for your ennemies, you where always enpting the chance than your brother in harm get the horn in an eyes.... In fact the Vivking never used them historically... It's just a way artist found out to kake the helmets look more menacings on theyr drawings

    Horned helmets have been used in a lot of cultures from the BC period until the Middle Ages. It was usually a ceremonial thing, there's no concrete evidence that Vikings used horns on battle helmets, but they may have used them for decorative purposes.

    In the later Middle Ages (1200 - 1500 AD), heraldry came and with it many examples of horned helmets. These would of been used in mock battles and jousts, not real war. It is a fantasy game though and the horned helmets look fantastic. It might not be historically accurate but 1PP ruins a really cool helmet.

    @mch202 If they can't do the work then I think 1PP should be optional. The only problem I've got is when 1PP is default and you can't remove it, if that is not the case then I'm happy.
    Post edited by Ward on
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,525
    A brand new version of 1PP has just been released (like, half an hour ago or something). It's called 1PPv4, it is massive and there are hints at BG:EE. Find it here, and rejoice.

    All hail @erephine.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    @AndreaColombo

    Screenshots pl0x! I can't download it now. :(
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited August 2012

    A brand new version of 1PP has just been released (like, half an hour ago or something). It's called 1PPv4, it is massive and there are hints at BG:EE. Find it here, and rejoice.

    All hail @erephine.

    Stuff never seen before O_o, i was only able to notice the paperdolls shields and helmets. I couldn't distinguish avatar armors, it looked blurry :p

    Oh well, let there be changes and more changes, new stuff is always cool, most of the time :P

    We love Erephine after all, even though she likes chainmail >_<
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited August 2012
    Ward said:

    What I've been told is that the reason the original graphics can't be used is because dual-wielding wasn't available in BG1 and so whenever you try to dual-wield using the original graphics the game will crash. So the only way to fix it is somebody has to draw new animations.

    Maybe it would be time better spent if this was done instead of optimizing 1PP for BG:EE when some people may not even want it.

    The thing is, these animations are not drawn, they are pre-renders of 3D models. The 3D models were lost, so you cannot simply add the missing animations, you'd have to re-do everything from scratch, a task of colossal proportions that the team simply doesn't have the ressources for.

  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited August 2012
    I think, with some code tweaking it's possible without redrawing from scratch, you first fix the crash, then you add an existing offhand animation or something, it's possible, but can't be done if the devs won't add some code or fix some things, and they have their hands full right now.

    It's also improbable that they will do it, because if they plan on using the BG2 animations (with 1pp), then i don't know if there's point, it would be just for the people that would use them, and i don't know how many we are, although options are a good thing :P
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    Mornmagor said:

    I think, with some code tweaking it's possible without redrawing from scratch, you first fix the crash, then you add an existing offhand animation or something, it's possible

    You mean tacking frames of an off-hand single-weapon attack after the main-hand single-weapon attack? I don't think it would be possible to make that appear natural and fluid; it wouldn't look like a two-handed attack either.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,525
    @Zeckul - the idea Miloch and I have been speculating about was to grab the off-hand attack animation from BG2 animations and tweak it to make it work with BG1 animations. We could never experiment with this because the game crashes when equipping BG1 animations with off-hand weapons. If that is fixed, I can try to give them dual-wielding support. It will likely be suboptimal, but it will still look better than BG2 animations altogether.
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    I don't get it. BG2 animations look very different from BG1 animations. If you selected certain animations from BG2, your character would appear to change form back and forth between BG1 and BG2 style as he performed different moves. (?)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,525
    @Zeckul - we would only use the off-hand attack animation, not the entire character model. Miloch knows these things a lot better than me, from a technical standpoint.
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