Minsc as a tank
Heindrich
Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
I have seen various people say that Minsc is a good front-line fighter, whereas Khalid is better off as an archer...
However in my own game thus far, I have used Khalid as my front-line fighter and Minsc as the archer because:
1) Minsc has great strength, but low Constitution (thus hp), and cannot take as many hits as Khalid.
2) Minsc is not a Fighter like Khalid, so cannot specialise purely on long swords.
So when people say Minsc can be a 'front-line fighter', do they mean that in a tanking sense? And if they do... how and why is he better at it than Khalid?
Bear in mind I am sticking to Canon NPCs, so cannot use Kagain or somebody else to tank incoming damage instead.
However in my own game thus far, I have used Khalid as my front-line fighter and Minsc as the archer because:
1) Minsc has great strength, but low Constitution (thus hp), and cannot take as many hits as Khalid.
2) Minsc is not a Fighter like Khalid, so cannot specialise purely on long swords.
So when people say Minsc can be a 'front-line fighter', do they mean that in a tanking sense? And if they do... how and why is he better at it than Khalid?
Bear in mind I am sticking to Canon NPCs, so cannot use Kagain or somebody else to tank incoming damage instead.
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Comments
The second thing is morale. Khalid is more prone to panic when injured. That can really make a mess of your planned tactics when one one of your tanks runs off screaming.
But that said, many players do like Khalid as a tank. Its usually what I use him for, until I forget him in a house in Neshkel somewhere...
I just got myself BG 1 EE, since it is very cheap from Steam right now, and considering restarting my quest with EE. Now that I know the mechanics much better, I can hopefully make a 'minimum reloads' play-through without using cheesy tactics like in my Vanilla play through. Namely using Algernon's Cloak to cheese early battles that I couldn't otherwise win, and using the gold trick with Firebead. (Incidentally, I'm doing quite well there, but may have messed up Imoen's thief skills as she can only achieve 80 or 85 for detect/disarm traps, which apparently means Durlag's Tower will be a major pain.)
Back to original topic... I noticed that in EE, u can apparently stay paused whilst looking through your inventory... does that not make single-handed weapons better, as u can have sword and bow, and swap to shield when enemy gets close? Then again, I suppose that'd be considered cheesy and unrealistic even if u can do it.
Also... is BG 1 EE more buggy for some reason? My very first mission in BG 1 EE seems to be bugged... The one where u collect a scroll for Firebead. I have spoken to Firebead, found Tethtoril, but he 'has nothing to say to me' no matter how many times i click on him -.-
But overall I would say EE is more stable and less glitchy than previous versions of the game, I've never once seen a CTD which used to be quite common. It is also much faster with no load screens and blazing fast saves.
The only down side to me is I liked to old cinematics better; but not enough to bother with a mod to fix it.
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 17
Minsc :
str 18/93
dex 15
con 15
As tanking in Baldur's gate has nothing to do with damage, and everything to do with surviving. Khalid is obviously the better tank of the two. He has a higher constitution and dexterity which are the most important stats for surviving.
Give him the gauntlets of dexterity, and he has 18 dexterity 17 constitution. Theese are the third best tanking stats in the game just comming behind Kagain and Yeslick.
1.) Kagain (18 dex, 20 constitution - Gauntlets of dexterity)
2.) Yeslick (18 dex, 17 constitution - Gauntlets of dexterity)
3.) Khalid (18 dex, 17 constitution - Gauntlets of dexterity)
4.) Minsc (18 dex, 15 constitution - Gauntlets of dexterity)
5.) Kivan (17 dex, 14 constitution)
The reason Yeslick is a better tank than Khalid is because of the midget saving throws.
If you're looking for an all around fighter Minsc is great with his high strength and alright dex and con. But if you're going for someone that you want to survive, there are better choises.
Also someone mentioned Minsc with a two handed sword. He gets slaughtered in close combat if he's your tank and using a two handed weapon. This is another reason you want him with a two handed sword / ranged weapon, and let Khalid use his long sword/ bastard sword proficiency for Varscona/ bastard sword +1 and a Large shield +1.
Until Dynaheir reached lv5 or so, my party more or less relied on archery to kill anything that hits back with interest, and the key aim in melee was to keep enemies away from my fragile party. From lv5 onwards, my Fighter/Mage PC, Minsc and Khalid were all reasonably capable in combat, and Minsc did chunk enemies quite often.
You mentioned that you abandoned Khalid in Nashkel... so I am guessing u recruited Kagain instead. Surely Minsc is much more effective fighting alongside another tank, as opposed to leading the line by himself, where he is liable to die from any incoming magic, arrows or hard hitting melee enemies.
Aside from the fact that she is evil, Shar-Teel's biggest disadvantage is her constitution. Who in the Nine Hells decided to giver her a con of 9?! This forces me to keep her well-stocked with potions for fortitude.
When playing good I like Ajantis. Nothing really stands out about him but he is well-balanced. Give him the Bracers of Dexterity and full plate mail and he also becomes really difficult for most things in the game to hit.
Actually in the early game, Kivan was my most powerful character by some distance as the most effective archer in my team. It was a sad day when I said goodbye to him in order to recruit Minsc in Nashkel. Sometimes it is hard staying faithful to the Canon NPCs for the sake of RP and BG 2 continuity...
1.) Does khalid have better AC? Yes
2.) Does Khalid have more health? Yes
3.) Does Khalid Survive longer and is he a better tank? Yes
4.) Does Khalid deal more damage than minsc? No
Once you reach durlag's tower and start fighting the dwarfs and wyverns down there you will notice the difference. Minsc isn't as durable as Khalid but that is fine, as he deals more damage. Same as Khalid isn't as durable as Kagain, but he is evil so rarely taken.
Baldu's gate is purely math when it comes to AC, Thac0 and Constitution. It doesn't matter about personal experience, as it's solid fact that AC -5 is better than AC-3.
If you send in minsc against one of the wyverns in Durlag's tower with his two handed sword, he will die in 3-4 hits at most. And they will hit him alot of time, same with Sarevok.
Even though Khalid and Minsc are close to eachother stat wise, Khalid is still the better tank while Minsc is the better bruiser. Now if you set Minsc up against Kagain you'll see how utterly destroyed Minsc will become. Minsc doesn't hold a candle to Kagain when it comes to tanking.
I'm not saying Khalid is a bad choice. And I am categorically not a power gamer. I choose characters mainly based on how much I like them. If it were really about the math, it's easy to give them all 18s via ShadowKeeper. But I do think Minsc is more effective than Khalid; he shortens battles, and doesn't need as many hit points.
But maybe you're right, he isn't so much a tank. In 20th century terminology an armored fighting vehicle that sacrifices a little protection to carry a bigger gun is a Tank Destroyer. So I'll take the TD, you can have the tank.
And ofcourse there is math in what i said.
If Khalid has -7 AC and Minsc with a two handed has -3 AC then the chanse of Khalid getting hit is much less. This is purely math and dices.
Also ofcourse Khalid won't take shield style as that is quite the useless proficiency. And you're forgetting Minsc is a ranger while Khalid can get Grandmaster in his weapon of choise.
If you give Khalid the gauntlets of Strength then he will deal more damage than Minsc does with the same gauntlets. Both will have 18/100 Strenght but Khalid will be able to get grand master.
If we're going to use the Gauntlets of Strenght then it will look like this.
Khalid :
18/100 str
16 dex
17 con
Grand Mastery (5*) In a weapon of choise.
Minsc :
18/100 str
15 dex
15 con
Weapon Specialization (2*) In a weapon of choise.
So not only can you turn Khalid into the better tank, you can also have him do more damage than Minsc. But they fill two different roles entirely.
Khalid : The one that goes first and take the brunt of the damage with a good shield, full plate and a good one handed weapon.
Minsc : Use a longbow and then go into close combat with a Two handed sword. The two handed swords range lets you stand behind Khalid where you won't get hit while swinging at the enemy infront of him.
There's way too many variables to draw such a firm conclusion as you have. Early in the game, Minsc is far more effective. Late in the game, how you use your stuff matters more than scores.
I was being facetious about the tank destroyer. I would take Minsc over Khalid any day.
But seriously. Khalid is vastly tougher. If you want a distraction that is not dealing much damage (incidentally, the lack of bonuses at mid-high level for stats is IMO the biggest problem with ad&d... 17 str vs 18/100 is a world of difference, like 14 vs 18 dex, or cons), you want Kagain or Khalid. If you want damage dealing, it's Minsc, Dorn, or shar-teel. Well, Kivan is pretty decent early, with a bow.
Shar is tops maybe for damage if dual wielding.
But if I could choose only one, I'd take the Stuart. It doesn't matter how good the armor is if you can't take out the enemy armor!
If Minsk = Stuart, then King Tiger = Firkraag.
But sure does seem funny calling Minsc a Stuart, that's a light tank! But when you're fighting M13/40s a Stuart is pretty darn effective.
Maybe he can level up to be a Sherman, then a Pershing...
As for morale, I've never had an issue, with Khalid or anyone. I think I read somewhere that it's purely a function of their default AI scripts, and that if you change those or turn off AI it stops happening. I might be crazy, though, since I can't find the source of that info now. That said, I also always put a high-charisma character in the first slot, which I've read does affect morale. So it's one of those or the other. :P