@zur312: Completely agreed. Icewind Dale is a dungeon crawler, which automatically diminishes the options to roleplay in-game. I'd say it's much less of an RPG than Baldur's Gate is, also because of the lack of party banters and interactions. Icewind Dale's story is so much less apparent, I got bored of the countless areas with monsters to kill. In Baldur's Gate, you at least have the feeling of being more involved in the story. Your companions are 'real' characters, not just killing machines created at the beginning of the game. Also, the lack of developing your main character's personality in-game also greatly put me off from continueing the game.
I'm trying to get into IWD2 at the moment. Its really not happening. The farthest I've gotten before (and this was awhile ago) was after beating the ice fortress.
Because Icewind Dale enforces class/stat choices for responses, otherwise you get generic responses that often lead to lesser rewards or missing out on opportunities completely. BG doesn't, allowing you to ignore roleplaying entirely and turn it into diablo.
BG you have the freedom of following the main quest like a good dog just as in Icewind Dale, and in both, you have the option to NOT doing side quests (BG just has more side quests but as a result the story isn't as focused and strong)..in fact you can actually miss some in Icewind Dale if you don't bring a diverse spread of classes/stats (vs BG where it's just a matter of picking the carefully reasoned response your 3 int fighter, clincially retarded PC should be incapable of conceptualizing or even speaking in a coherent manner), which is essential for a genuine roleplaying party. (Also...Icewind Dale is largely meant to be played with friends (though you have the option of going it alone) allowing for genuine roleplaying, while the multiplayer in BG is very tacked on).
That first one is the end because you didn't care about the adventure and don't know where to go next even if you did (the caravan was a necessity to cross the tundra towards Kuldahar). The 10-towns area is a huge area of frozen tundra and wandering around out in wilderness as a small party, will get you killed in a hurry. It takes a lot of supplies to survive, especially since the hard months are just beginning as you arrived in Easthaven, which is why travel is done almost exclusively via caravan, except during the small band in the seasons where less prepared travel is possible.
@elminster I managed to beat it, but the %^$&# implementation of 3rd is even worse then their implementation of 2nd, and the story is just utterly uninteresting through most of the game.
you are talking about 3 int fighters and later about weird 3rd system actually in dnd 3e INT will give you bonuses while in 2e it does not ;P so implementation of 3e was pretty good and i like about iwd2 this that everything has purpose even int char and wis in 3e you can dualclass into whatever making barbarian-paladins and thief/druid/mages this is so cool (maybe not powergaming;P)
and i still think iwd is more of diablo game you just go and kill everything baldur's gate feels more like adventure you don't need to kill everything but you can
probably better in rpg options is only fallout/arcanum but i never played those and i did not complete iwd2 because i started bg2 tactics run lol
@zur312 Actually, Int is just as valuable in 2nd as in 3rd, BG just completely left out the NCP (Non-Combat Proficiency) system, which is very similar to 3rd's Skill system (Each class has preferred access to certain pools of skills, and outside that preference each point costs double the proficiency points, unless there's a special exclusion (like all rangers can buy trap making for normal cost, even though it's in the rogue pool). You also get extra proficiencies for high int, as well as additional languages which can be traded in for even more proficiency slots if you don't feel you'd need them, which can be spent on either additional weapon proficiencies or NCP (though you're still limited to a maximum of ** weapon profs at creation as a fighter, and you can't bank proficiency points for later (though you can place as many points into a NCP as you want, up to 5 max, even at creation, though it's generally better to spread them around and build them up slowly instead, also some NCP have minimum level requirements (like trap making requires a minimum level of 10...though BH and Stalkers get a free point in it at creation, they just can't put additional points until 10+, limiting them to simple traps until then).
Also, in 2nd edition you're SUPPOSED to be able to dual-class into anything you can meet the requirements for (the only exception being you can only have 1 class of each pool, and only 1 kit per character, though you CAN dual into a kit as long as you didn't have one already).
(specialist mages are not kits, Specialist is a completely separate class from a normal mage, and you could dual into a specialist AND take a kit you met the requirements for (mage kits have requirements on which schools you must have available), provided you didn't have a kit on any of your previous classes).
You can't judge 2nd edition by what BG has in it, because BG barely implements anything but the most barest skeletal structure of 2nd edition...and then throws in several random "balance" changes that do nothing of the sort.
Bards suffer the most of any class, as not only is their song completely worthless (and requires them to do nothing BUT sing, where as it should have a 1/round per level duration), they lost the ability to specialize in dual-wielding, their spell casting is capped at 6th instead of 8th, they can't use thief skills while wearing any chainmail (except elven) (even though the game itself still says they can), only one of their thief skills was implemented, there's no real point EXCEPT the bard stronghold where their strength at social situations comes in handy, they completely lack counter-song, and their biggest strength was the ability to buy warrior, wizard, and rogue NCP at normal cost, giving them massive versatility. All gone...and with no compensation what so ever.
And none of their kits receive their proper penalties, making ALL of them better then the base bard, when in PnP the true Bard is arguably the strongest of all due to it's versatility...the rest are better in specific areas, but they can't do everything reasonably well, as the true bard can, allowing them to truly round out a party by bringing a little of everything to complement the other more focused classes.
Wow, putting Baldur's Gate on the same line as Diablo is probably the worst insult I've heard thus far. Both games are miles apart from each other. Really, just mind-boggling.
Not once you've played BG to death and the shiny veneer has started peeling off. It's just as cookie cutter as Diablo at the end of the day. It's part of why I try not to give any newbie advice these days (aside from "Don't ask any questions or read any guides...just play the game..it contains everything you need to know"), people are better just going into BG utterly blind and ignorant of 2nd edition mechanics and "whats best" and "where to go", and they'll be capable of enjoying the game more and for longer.
The moment you realize, due to %^$& implementation, 80% of a stat's value is meaningless, unless it's 15 or above, is the day the game dies and it becomes Diablo.
BG just gives you the illusion of choice. Diablo is just more upfront about what it is. (and D2 is surprisingly deep, despite how little time they actually spend on the story, it's most just in cutscenes, and utterly blows that POS they wrote for D3 out of the water (not surprizing as all the original D1 and D2 developers work at other companies these days after Blizzard closed down Blizzard North (most are working for runic games atm).
@ZanathKariashi, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say about bards. I'm currently running a game of NWN2 as a bard, and it's a really amazing toon. The songs and inspirations are varied and helpful, you can fight after singing, you can build Use Magic Device for extreme magical flexibility, you get healing, defense, and even a few limited attack spells, and you have skill points running out your ears.
I know that's kind of comparing apples to oranges between the editions, but from what you say about pnp second edition, they were supposed to be a little more like what they eventually would become in third edition, and BG really screwed up the implementation of bards. I still like to play skald characters in BG, but I do wish they could do something other than the constant singing, and apparently, they were supposed to. You've posted in detail about what a skald was really supposed to be in some other threads.
As for BG turning into Diablo, I first realized that it could turn into that when I tried some solo runs. I know a lot of people enjoy playing solo, but I just thought it was excruciatingly boring. Kill, kill, kill, loot, loot, loot. And the drops are always the same! At least true action rpg games have randomized drops, for a constant feeling of "gambler's high"; that is, every kill is like pulling the arm of a slot machine.
What saves BG from fading into a bad version of Diablo for me is the character interaction. BG's rich and varied cast of NPC allies and villains, as well as story, keeps bringing me back for more. I've done whole runs just to try a new party combination, to try to hear dialogues I haven't heard before. I get very immersed in my PC toons' personalities and relationships with the other toons.
So, sure, BG isn't above criticism, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lots and lots of people love to play Baldur's Gate, and they play it over and over, year after year, for good reason. I am one of them.
I'm trying to get into IWD2 at the moment. Its really not happening. The farthest I've gotten before (and this was awhile ago) was after beating the ice fortress.
Story of my life. I mean, I really want to beat the game. And for the most part it's fun while I'm playing it. But then I always get to a point (usually somewhere between the ice fortress and Kuldahar) where I just lose all desire to continue. And for whatever reason I dislike continuing my saved games after an extended break (for IWD and just about any other game), so the next time I feel like playing it I start from scratch and repeat the whole process. I've probably created dozens of parties (I really do like 3E character creation and progression), and started at least 10 playthroughs.
I liked IWD1. I would rate it above BG2 on the merits of story line and artwork alone, but not in other ways. IWD1 is very linear, it's a dungeon crawl, it's a grind, but that's okay because the story line and environment is captivating. I loved Dorn's Deep and the Severed Hand.
I highly recommend Wes' IWD2 mod. The Ice fortress is too painful otherwise.
But I really liked the IWD2 engine. The 3E rules were a nice change. Too bad pick pocketing was so badly hosed...
Icewind Dale (1 and 2) had more seperate conversation options for different classes (detecting evil in-conversation with paladins, telling tales with your bard, speaking goblin if you were a dwarf or drow) but only a few conversations alltogether. Baldur's Gate had tons of sidequests and people to talk to, but it didn't matter in 99% of the cases whether you were an albino half orc berserker/thief with the charisma of a rock or a cultured elven wizard).
Both have their merits and flaws. Neither are like Diablo. I enjoy Icewind Dale for its customisation of characters, challenging fights and exotic locations, I like BG for its cast of characters, plethora of sidequests and increasingly epic storyline.
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who which one is the best, they're both good.
I liked IWD1. I would rate it above BG2 on the merits of story line and artwork alone, but not in other ways. IWD1 is very linear, it's a dungeon crawl, it's a grind, but that's okay because the story line and environment is captivating. I loved Dorn's Deep and the Severed Hand.
I highly recommend Wes' IWD2 mod. The Ice fortress is too painful otherwise.
But I really liked the IWD2 engine. The 3E rules were a nice change. Too bad pick pocketing was so badly hosed...
I'm trying to get into IWD2 at the moment. Its really not happening. The farthest I've gotten before (and this was awhile ago) was after beating the ice fortress.
Story of my life. I mean, I really want to beat the game. And for the most part it's fun while I'm playing it. But then I always get to a point (usually somewhere between the ice fortress and Kuldahar) where I just lose all desire to continue. And for whatever reason I dislike continuing my saved games after an extended break (for IWD and just about any other game), so the next time I feel like playing it I start from scratch and repeat the whole process. I've probably created dozens of parties (I really do like 3E character creation and progression), and started at least 10 playthroughs.
I've now been hit by a terrible case of restartitis with my current group. I haven't even left the first town yet LOL
I didn't care too much for undead Targos. I also highly recommend choosing carefully among the different "ease-of-use" options. Some are more controversial than others.
One thing that I've done is make myself a savegame right after the battle at the Targos' Palisade, that performs the same function as the Dungeon-Be-Gone mod for BG2. There is already a Targos-Be-Gone mod that is also just a savegame, but when I tried it out I remember the characters having a bunch of high powered items, and more xp and gold then you'd ever legitimately have at that point (maybe it was intended for Heart of Winter mode or something). So I made my own, where I didn't scribe any scrolls, sell any items, etc. (to leave as many options available as possible), so that I can load that game, create whatever new characters I want, CLUA them to the xp of the original characters, and then go from there. It makes restarting a lot easier for me, as I've always found that whole section very tedious.
I actually just played now. Went straight from leaving targos to beating the bridge area. The one thing I will say that I've found about IWD2 is it does a better job with evil characters than Baldur's Gate. You can be pretty scummy in IWD without really a lot of negatives from what I've seen (and a few surprises).
IWD series are action RPGs. They are entirely about the combat, but the combat is very enjoyable. If you dont like them dont play them, because yeah they arent much anything like BG even though they are on the same engine.
Except IWD and even IWD 2, has more actual roleplaying then all the quests of the full Baldur's Gate saga, combined.
BG is longer and draws things out, but is also diluted due to a less focused plot, and grossly undermines some of the less combat oriented classes, like bards or druids, without compensation. IWD at least gives them a time to shine, or compensates them for lost abilities.
Well they're such different games. IWD 1/2 have deep and immersive story lines, difficult battles and full party control which is great, while in BG 1/2 you interact with other party members, follow different plot lines and your decisions have an impact on how things will turn out. There isn't really much RP in IWD 1/2 (and that's okay).
@belgarathmth: Just here to thank you for the links - I hadn't planned on playing either of the IWD games (even though I own both thanks to GOG's big D&D sale), but these NPC Projects changed my mind.
@shawne, you're welcome. I don't think they're quite as good as the Baldur's Gate NPC Project, but they're good enough to make IWD and IWD2 feel more like a good roleplaying experience instead of just a combat simulator.
Comments
Because Icewind Dale enforces class/stat choices for responses, otherwise you get generic responses that often lead to lesser rewards or missing out on opportunities completely. BG doesn't, allowing you to ignore roleplaying entirely and turn it into diablo.
BG you have the freedom of following the main quest like a good dog just as in Icewind Dale, and in both, you have the option to NOT doing side quests (BG just has more side quests but as a result the story isn't as focused and strong)..in fact you can actually miss some in Icewind Dale if you don't bring a diverse spread of classes/stats (vs BG where it's just a matter of picking the carefully reasoned response your 3 int fighter, clincially retarded PC should be incapable of conceptualizing or even speaking in a coherent manner), which is essential for a genuine roleplaying party. (Also...Icewind Dale is largely meant to be played with friends (though you have the option of going it alone) allowing for genuine roleplaying, while the multiplayer in BG is very tacked on).
That first one is the end because you didn't care about the adventure and don't know where to go next even if you did (the caravan was a necessity to cross the tundra towards Kuldahar). The 10-towns area is a huge area of frozen tundra and wandering around out in wilderness as a small party, will get you killed in a hurry. It takes a lot of supplies to survive, especially since the hard months are just beginning as you arrived in Easthaven, which is why travel is done almost exclusively via caravan, except during the small band in the seasons where less prepared travel is possible.
@elminster
I managed to beat it, but the %^$&# implementation of 3rd is even worse then their implementation of 2nd, and the story is just utterly uninteresting through most of the game.
actually in dnd 3e INT will give you bonuses while in 2e it does not ;P
so implementation of 3e was pretty good and i like about iwd2 this that everything has purpose
even int char and wis
in 3e you can dualclass into whatever making barbarian-paladins and thief/druid/mages this is so cool (maybe not powergaming;P)
and i still think iwd is more of diablo game you just go and kill everything
baldur's gate feels more like adventure you don't need to kill everything but you can
probably better in rpg options is only fallout/arcanum but i never played those
and i did not complete iwd2 because i started bg2 tactics run lol
Actually, Int is just as valuable in 2nd as in 3rd, BG just completely left out the NCP (Non-Combat Proficiency) system, which is very similar to 3rd's Skill system (Each class has preferred access to certain pools of skills, and outside that preference each point costs double the proficiency points, unless there's a special exclusion (like all rangers can buy trap making for normal cost, even though it's in the rogue pool). You also get extra proficiencies for high int, as well as additional languages which can be traded in for even more proficiency slots if you don't feel you'd need them, which can be spent on either additional weapon proficiencies or NCP (though you're still limited to a maximum of ** weapon profs at creation as a fighter, and you can't bank proficiency points for later (though you can place as many points into a NCP as you want, up to 5 max, even at creation, though it's generally better to spread them around and build them up slowly instead, also some NCP have minimum level requirements (like trap making requires a minimum level of 10...though BH and Stalkers get a free point in it at creation, they just can't put additional points until 10+, limiting them to simple traps until then).
Also, in 2nd edition you're SUPPOSED to be able to dual-class into anything you can meet the requirements for (the only exception being you can only have 1 class of each pool, and only 1 kit per character, though you CAN dual into a kit as long as you didn't have one already).
(specialist mages are not kits, Specialist is a completely separate class from a normal mage, and you could dual into a specialist AND take a kit you met the requirements for (mage kits have requirements on which schools you must have available), provided you didn't have a kit on any of your previous classes).
You can't judge 2nd edition by what BG has in it, because BG barely implements anything but the most barest skeletal structure of 2nd edition...and then throws in several random "balance" changes that do nothing of the sort.
Bards suffer the most of any class, as not only is their song completely worthless (and requires them to do nothing BUT sing, where as it should have a 1/round per level duration), they lost the ability to specialize in dual-wielding, their spell casting is capped at 6th instead of 8th, they can't use thief skills while wearing any chainmail (except elven) (even though the game itself still says they can), only one of their thief skills was implemented, there's no real point EXCEPT the bard stronghold where their strength at social situations comes in handy, they completely lack counter-song, and their biggest strength was the ability to buy warrior, wizard, and rogue NCP at normal cost, giving them massive versatility. All gone...and with no compensation what so ever.
And none of their kits receive their proper penalties, making ALL of them better then the base bard, when in PnP the true Bard is arguably the strongest of all due to it's versatility...the rest are better in specific areas, but they can't do everything reasonably well, as the true bard can, allowing them to truly round out a party by bringing a little of everything to complement the other more focused classes.
The moment you realize, due to %^$& implementation, 80% of a stat's value is meaningless, unless it's 15 or above, is the day the game dies and it becomes Diablo.
BG just gives you the illusion of choice. Diablo is just more upfront about what it is. (and D2 is surprisingly deep, despite how little time they actually spend on the story, it's most just in cutscenes, and utterly blows that POS they wrote for D3 out of the water (not surprizing as all the original D1 and D2 developers work at other companies these days after Blizzard closed down Blizzard North (most are working for runic games atm).
I know that's kind of comparing apples to oranges between the editions, but from what you say about pnp second edition, they were supposed to be a little more like what they eventually would become in third edition, and BG really screwed up the implementation of bards. I still like to play skald characters in BG, but I do wish they could do something other than the constant singing, and apparently, they were supposed to. You've posted in detail about what a skald was really supposed to be in some other threads.
As for BG turning into Diablo, I first realized that it could turn into that when I tried some solo runs. I know a lot of people enjoy playing solo, but I just thought it was excruciatingly boring. Kill, kill, kill, loot, loot, loot. And the drops are always the same! At least true action rpg games have randomized drops, for a constant feeling of "gambler's high"; that is, every kill is like pulling the arm of a slot machine.
What saves BG from fading into a bad version of Diablo for me is the character interaction. BG's rich and varied cast of NPC allies and villains, as well as story, keeps bringing me back for more. I've done whole runs just to try a new party combination, to try to hear dialogues I haven't heard before. I get very immersed in my PC toons' personalities and relationships with the other toons.
So, sure, BG isn't above criticism, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Lots and lots of people love to play Baldur's Gate, and they play it over and over, year after year, for good reason. I am one of them.
but in diablo only vitality gives you anything
i think you maybe view the game as powergamer too much and still can play baldur's gate with npc con 12 and enjoy it
diablo itself is pretty much different because of mechanics you just run and kill and run and kill
in baldur's gate you walk you have whole party so pause for mage spells pause for archers pause because someone got hit and you need to flee
I highly recommend Wes' IWD2 mod. The Ice fortress is too painful otherwise.
But I really liked the IWD2 engine. The 3E rules were a nice change. Too bad pick pocketing was so badly hosed...
Icewind Dale (1 and 2) had more seperate conversation options for different classes (detecting evil in-conversation with paladins, telling tales with your bard, speaking goblin if you were a dwarf or drow) but only a few conversations alltogether.
Baldur's Gate had tons of sidequests and people to talk to, but it didn't matter in 99% of the cases whether you were an albino half orc berserker/thief with the charisma of a rock or a cultured elven wizard).
Both have their merits and flaws. Neither are like Diablo.
I enjoy Icewind Dale for its customisation of characters, challenging fights and exotic locations, I like BG for its cast of characters, plethora of sidequests and increasingly epic storyline.
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who which one is the best, they're both good.
I can upload the save, if anyone's interested.
Except IWD and even IWD 2, has more actual roleplaying then all the quests of the full Baldur's Gate saga, combined.
BG is longer and draws things out, but is also diluted due to a less focused plot, and grossly undermines some of the less combat oriented classes, like bards or druids, without compensation. IWD at least gives them a time to shine, or compensates them for lost abilities.
Beats what druids get at level 4 in BG2 (well except for woodland beings I suppose).