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bg1 vanilla vs bg:ee level difficulty which is harder?

in bg1 you have
-no subclass
-no new spells

in bg:ee you have
-more intelligent enemies
-more spells that they use

but which of these two is harder game?

Comments

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Vanilla BG1 for sure. Kits make everything very easy.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Even without kits (I played both Vanilla nd EE with Fighter/Mage), EE is much easier. You have far more hp and there is no early-game gg waylaid events.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    zur312 said:

    in bg:ee you have
    -more intelligent enemies

    In what ways? I don't remember hearing anything about AI being improved for EE.

    Even without kits (I played both Vanilla nd EE with Fighter/Mage), EE is much easier. You have far more hp and there is no early-game gg waylaid events.

    Why would you have more HP in EE? Also, the fact that you weren't waylaid early on may have just been good luck on your part.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    TJ_Hooker said:

    zur312 said:

    in bg:ee you have
    -more intelligent enemies

    In what ways? I don't remember hearing anything about AI being improved for EE.
    i think in bugfixing there where improvements in ai so not directly but it was
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    TJ_Hooker said:

    zur312 said:

    in bg:ee you have
    -more intelligent enemies

    In what ways? I don't remember hearing anything about AI being improved for EE.

    Even without kits (I played both Vanilla nd EE with Fighter/Mage), EE is much easier. You have far more hp and there is no early-game gg waylaid events.

    Why would you have more HP in EE? Also, the fact that you weren't waylaid early on may have just been good luck on your part.
    I played Vanilla and EE both at default difficulty, with the same party and the same PC stats. In Vanilla your hp gain per level is randomised, in EE it's maximised. It means the early game '1-shot by worg' period is much shorter. By level 3, I remember Minsc was still very squishy in Vanilla, whereas in EE he could stand toe to toe against most regular enemies.

    As for waylaid, yes you still get waylaid in EE, but the enemies you get are much easier. In Vanilla your lv1 party can get ambushed by 10 bandits and get shot down in seconds, or a large band of hobgoblins and worgs. In EE early ambushes are usually like 2 wolves. You don't get remotely dangerous ambushes until you go near the Wyverns, but by then your party is strong enough to handle 2 Wyverns with ease.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    heidrich you are wrong

    hp per level depends on difficulty not on the game version so random hp is both in vanilla and ee versions

    you can turn difficulty to easy and gain level in bg vanilla for maximum hp
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    I think the benefits the kits convey and the bonuses of the new items (stupifier) make BGEE easier. But my memory of BG1 is fading fast. That was a long time ago!
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I don't see any difference in difficulty between vanilia and EE.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    zur312 said:



    hp per level depends on difficulty not on the game version so random hp is both in vanilla and ee versions

    you can turn difficulty to easy and gain level in bg vanilla for maximum hp

    I didn't think the "max HP per level" option was implemented until the BG2 engine?
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    zur312 said:

    you can turn difficulty to easy and gain level in bg vanilla for maximum hp

    No you can't. That's TuTu. In Vanilla BG you have no Maximum HP option.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    ah but there is good ol' quick load after you quick save your level up to get maximum hp :)
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    You can pick one of the more "gimp" (weak at low level) subclasses in BGEE which could make the EE version harder.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013
    i think there is max hp option
    it is called "easy"

    but that doesn't matter you can have max hp in vanilla or ee so this is not an argument
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2013
    There isn't. The only way to get max hp in vanilla BG1, is to reload till you get full a hp roll for each level-up, which is exactly the same as cheating. The difficulty setting in Vanilla BG1 JUST increases/decreases the amount of damage you take/deal. Nothing else....even though it does say that decreasing the difficulty reduces xp gained, while increasing difficulty does not increase xp gains, but actually doesn't do that.

    In BG2, they changed it big time. At normal or less you get max hp per level, party members can't be chunked (except for being turned to stone and shattered, because it removes them from the party before they die), 100% chance to learn spells.


    @Freche

    NONE of the kits are weak enough to make the game any noticeably more difficult vs BG1, and the majority of them of brokenly powerful...only the Kensai and WS are sort of, but not really, disadvantaged. Hell, the bigger stacks for ranged weapons, dual-wielding, movement speed, tweaked spawn rates, BG2 style difficulty options, new items, the massive amount of engine exploits EE introduced, massively decrease the challenge by a large margin.

    About the only difference I can think of is that they made it nearly impossible in EE for part clerics to kill greater wolfweres solo, due to removing The Root of the Problem (only blunt weapon with silver/cold iron flags)....for some reason.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    i think reloading is not cheating if it was cheating
    players reload after fail spell reading too was this cheating?
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    I thought the root of the problem wasn't actually placed in game in the original? wasn't it one of those items they forgot to put in the game? kind of like some level 4/5 mages spells and level 4/5 cleric spells?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    BGEE is a lot easier. Especially given all the new spells you get. In BG1 Druids for instance used to only get 2 different spells (healing and animal summons) at level 5 and only 5 different spells for level 4 (none of which was the spell "call woodland beings"). Now they have an even better selection (with the exception of no longer getting remove fear). Plus you have mage spells like glitterdust that pretty well immobilize enemies. Encounters are also a lot easier and as others have mentioned you have max HP on level up on "Normal" difficulty which you never had in BG1 and in addition if you made the game too easy in BG1 you got less experience (not the case in BGEE).
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @sarevok57
    I know for 100% sure it's in TotSC. (fresh installed from my 3 disc Original Saga edition).


    @zur312
    Of course. Depending on the person, some might term it cheese instead, but for all intents and purposes you are cheating by exploiting game mechanics.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    @ZanathKariashi ah I see, my brother had that 3 disk set, I still have the 6 disk set back from the last millennium ago, if you can use some spoiler tags, where is it supposed to be located?
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    i thought for a moment that bg:ee was harder
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    zur312 said:

    i thought for a moment that bg:ee was harder

    Its harder to die in :D
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Vanilla was a bit harder. Installing SCS evens things out, but it doesn't make as big a difference as it does in BG 2.
  • FubbyFubby Member Posts: 189
    In my version of original BG, Sarevoke had full 100% MR and the middle of the room spawned skull traps and if you went to the side of the room those doomwarriors would spawn

    yeah EE is easier.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Fubby said:

    In my version of original BG, Sarevoke had full 100% MR and the middle of the room spawned skull traps and if you went to the side of the room those doomwarriors would spawn

    The first time I went there, I was like, "yeahno".

    Vanilla. :|

    Narrator: "YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF!"
    Half-Ogre: "ME HUNGRY!" "Me mad!" "Me kill men what make me mad!"

    Seriously, dual wielding, kits, expanded spell selections, and the new items have made this game so much easier. On the same hand, I miss the "what the [REDACTED]?!" random encounters. Getting through the tough ones early on was a lot of fun, and rewarding as all get-out. :D
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    I have noticed one monster AI improvement in EE. In large mobs, they will swarm and snake around your melee front line, and several of them will break off and attack your back line casters if your front line doesn't manage to hold. In my old non-scs setups, they would attack the first target they saw until they died.

    As to the topic question, I don't see much noticeable difference between EE and a non-SCS Tutu or BGT setup as far as difficulty.

    The original, unmodded, BG1 is king as far as difficulty, for reasons that people forget, because most people have played Tutu or BGT for so many years, they haven't played vanilla in over a decade.

    I played vanilla from GoG.com a couple of years ago, and I was impressed with all the difficulty I had forgotten, including ammo stacks limited to 20, harder and more frequent "you have been waylaid" screens, and the big one for me, no pausing and going to inventory screen during combat. You had to plan ahead carefully, because once you were under attack, and you had forgotten to put that healing potion or that antidote into your quickslot, it was too late.

    I lost Jaheira to poison in Liandrin's spider house once, and she had an antidote! I had just forgotten to put it in her quickslot. I think this made for very realistic adrenaline-pumping suspense in between and during combat. It's not like you can say "excuse me, Mr. Spider, would you mind not trying to bite me and wait just a moment while I dig this little antidote bottle out of my backpack? Thanks, it'll just take me a second here (dig, dig, rustle, rustle) . Ah, here it is. Gulp. Okay, we can start fighting again now, thanks for your patience."

    Chunking was also an ever present danger. I lost Dynaheir to a fireball chunking on the top floor of the Iron Throne. Since it was a no-reload, and I'd already missed the opportunity to get Xan, I wound up having to use Quayle as my main arcane caster for the rest of the game.

    But that "no pause on inventory screen during combat" business was really brutal.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    I have noticed one monster AI improvement in EE. In large mobs, they will swarm and snake around your melee front line, and several of them will break off and attack your back line casters if your front line doesn't manage to hold. In my old non-scs setups, they would attack the first target they saw until they died.

    As to the topic question, I don't see much noticeable difference between EE and a non-SCS Tutu or BGT setup as far as difficulty.

    The original, unmodded, BG1 is king as far as difficulty, for reasons that people forget, because most people have played Tutu or BGT for so many years, they haven't played vanilla in over a decade.

    I played vanilla from GoG.com a couple of years ago, and I was impressed with all the difficulty I had forgotten, including ammo stacks limited to 20, harder and more frequent "you have been waylaid" screens, and the big one for me, no pausing and going to inventory screen during combat. You had to plan ahead carefully, because once you were under attack, and you had forgotten to put that healing potion or that antidote into your quickslot, it was too late.

    I lost Jaheira to poison in Liandrin's spider house once, and she had an antidote! I had just forgotten to put it in her quickslot. I think this made for very realistic adrenaline-pumping suspense in between and during combat. It's not like you can say "excuse me, Mr. Spider, would you mind not trying to bite me and wait just a moment while I dig this little antidote bottle out of my backpack? Thanks, it'll just take me a second here (dig, dig, rustle, rustle) . Ah, here it is. Gulp. Okay, we can start fighting again now, thanks for your patience."

    Chunking was also an ever present danger. I lost Dynaheir to a fireball chunking on the top floor of the Iron Throne. Since it was a no-reload, and I'd already missed the opportunity to get Xan, I wound up having to use Quayle as my main arcane caster for the rest of the game.

    But that "no pause on inventory screen during combat" business was really brutal.

    Yeah, I forgot to even mention that no-pausing business. It basically meant I had to make a decision for each character as to whether they'd use missile weapons or sword+shield primarily. Like my PC was mostly an archer in BG 1 and when he switched to his sword, he had no benefit of a shield. Khalid meanwhile, whilst a capable archer, could not keep his bow equipped cos I wanted him to tank with a shield.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    i think ammo stacking argument is a little weird
    it does make game more difficult but would you like to fight with your equipment or evil monster? i think monster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    Another thing (which is sort of involving ambushes) is resting. I just rested for like 2 days in a row in High Hedge without getting attacked by enemies. It seems to me like you are a lot less likely to get attacked during resting in BGEE over the original.

    Also the swarms of enemies you encounter when attacked in your sleep are still smaller than in BG1. I only had to fight 2 skeletons when I finally was attacked during my sleep with a level 3 party.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    I haven't actually played vanilla in ages, but I have fired it up now and then to double check something, and one thing that strikes me is how tiny the game screen is. I think that in itself would add some difficulty compared to playing at a higher resolution, as you can't see enemies from as far away, making it harder to effectively use ranged weapons and AoE spells.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    I do think vanilla was a little harder, mainly because of the tougher wanderings. But the biggest difference is just that I know the strategies now; I'll never be a complete newbie again, which makes it a little hard to judge.
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