Kensai > BGEE2

raoniluna

Well first of all, I think this is not really a good time to be thinking about BGEE2, but let us put that aside for now...

Well, the thing is, I have never played Baldur's Gate before, I started with Neverwinter Nights 1... then 2... then Dragon Age... etc so I'm not one of the old school, sorry, and I was needing help about the Kensai dual-classing, or not.

I already read some guides, I know it is a blaphemy to not be a fighter-mage and in fact I want to but since melee damage/accuracy (two weapon fighting) is my top priority, I'd like to know 2 things:

1 - How much worse would I be at melee if I dual-class Kensai into Mage? (No I don't want to know good things just the bad things, and please if there is a bad thing about it, tell me)

2 - If I decide to dual-class, what is the best level to maximize melee damage/accuracy? (Is it possible to 20/20?)

I don't mind being a glass canon, neither I care about being useful or having a good build, I really want the maximun damage output with kensai, and if the losses are not that big I will dual-class into mage. My concern is that I'm a 3rd edition player and I don't know how dual-class THAC0 (BAB?) works in Baldur's Gate, also I don't know if Kensai's bonuses still work after level 20, and other minor things.

I don't want to be rude but I'm used to people in forums suggesting good builds when this is definetly what I don't want. It happens often, I want to do something stupid, people try to enlighten me about it and the topic loses its purpose since it becomes a way for people to try to convince me to do what I don't want to and I get no help at all so I'm just trying to prevent this years old story. It is not a polite way to ask for help but it is the best I can to prevent the previously described situations.

SionIV

1.) Kensai / mage is a very niché build that requires meta gaming and you'll spend half of your game very weak. You'll be very weak through the whole of BG1 as you can't use armor. You can also pick a berserker or pure class fighter and dual to a mage instead, you're trading some damage vs armor and other neat abilities (rage). The kensai isn't better at dual wielding than the other fighters, they have some more damage that ramp up a little as you level up and an ability called Kai that help with damage even more.

2.) You'll want to dual class at

7 - First bonus to APR (Attack per rounds)
9 - Last time you'll get full health out of your class
13 - Last APR point.

The most powerful character will have dual classed from level 13 but that takes a very long time as you also have to get your mage to level 14 to unlock your old abilities. I normally go with 13 if i'm soloing and 9 if i'm playing with a party.

If you want the most damage out of your kensai then you'll have to get to level 13.

Level 13 fighter : 1 250 000 experience.
Level 14 mage : 1 500 000 experience.

This will only happen when you get to the mid of BG2. So you'll have to play a pure kensai through BG1 which can be quite frustrating and first once you get into the middle of BG2 you'll be able to get back your kensai powers.

If you go with a Berserker instead of Kensai your BG1 game will be much easier as you can use an armor and get a fantastic rage. The difference between a 13 Kensai and a 13 Berserker when it comes to damage isn't that much, and you're talking about wanting to overkill someone with 130% or 160%.

AstroBryGuy

When you dual-class your PC, he (or she) puts aside the abilities of his first class (except hit points) and starts a new career at 1st level of his new class. So, when you dual-class your Kensai to a mage, he would have all the stats of a 1st level mage except hit points, that includes THAC0, weapon proficiencies, etc.. Your PC advances as a mage, gaining all the abilities as normal - except hit points.

When your PC's mage level exceeds his old Kensai level, he gains all his Kensai abilities back. Now, he gets to use abilities and skills of both classes. So, he can cast spells or pick up a sword and activate his Kai ability. As for THAC0, if his Kensai THAC0 is better than his current mage THAC0 (which it will be), he will now use his Kensai THAC0. However, his Kensai abilities are "frozen", he can only gain levels as a mage (and he now starts gaining hit points again, but as a mage).

The big downside of dual-classing is the period when your PC loses his old class abilities. Since gaining them back requires advancing to "old class + 1" in the new class, the higher level you take the old class, the longer you have to wait to get back your old class abilities.

For example, if you advanced to level 20 as a Kensai and then dualled to mage, you would have to advance to level 21 as a mage before getting your Kensai abilities back. Since mages have the slowest level progression, this means you'll be without kensai abilities for a LOOOOOONG time. Level 20 for a Kensai takes 3,000,000 XP and Level 21 for a Mage takes 4,125,000 XP. Since BG2:TOB caps at 8,000,000 XP, you wouldn't get your Kensai powers back until near the end of the game.

As for how a Kensai/Mage compares to a pure Kensai at melee? Well, before you gain "old class +1" as a mage, he would be fight like a wizard, i.e. bad. After he gains "old class +1" he will fight like a level 13 Kensai, but one that can buff himself with arcane spells. He can cast Ghost Armor and improve his AC, Haste and get more attacks per round, Fireball and soften enemies up at range before closing to finish them off, Monster Summoning and create some meat shields, Protection from Magic Weapons and laugh as magic swords bounce off him, or Tensor's Transformation and become a freaking beast.

To maximize your melee power as a Kensai/Mage, a good point to dual is level 13. At level 13, fighters have 2 attacks per round and Kensais further get -2 AC, +4 to hit & damage, -4 speed factor, 4 uses of Kai per day. Level 13 for a Kensai only takes 1,250,000 XP and then getting to level 14 Mage is 1,500,000 XP. So, you'll gain your Kensai powers back much earlier in the game. Plus, you can still advance to level 28 as a mage (6,750,000 XP) and max out the spells per day progression table.

raoniluna

First things first, thank you.

Kensai is an important part of the character, role playing purposes, his story is based on his dedication to the weapon.

One thing that I still need to know: If I level Kensai from level 1 to 40, will it have the kit bonus (+damage) in the 20-40 levels?

I don't really mind having a crappy character, in one of my NWN2 playthrough I leveled up a character using unarmed strike, with 10 str and I didn't have monk levels, THAT is hard, the Kensai will be a lot easier, and the party covers many weaknesses if you know how to manage it. I can take dying frequently, I've been there before.

SionIV

raoniluna said:

First things first, thank you.

Kensai is an important part of the character, role playing purposes, his story is based on his dedication to the weapon.

One thing that I still need to know: If I level Kensai from level 1 to 40, will it have the kit bonus (+damage) in the 20-40 levels?

I don't really mind having a crappy character, in one of my NWN2 playthrough I leveled up a character using unarmed strike, with 10 str and I didn't have monk levels, THAT is hard, the Kensai will be a lot easier, and the party covers many weaknesses if you know how to manage it. I can take dying frequently, I've been there before.

1.) Yes you will still get the bonuses from level 20-40, but at that point you're strong enough that it doesn't matter anymore.

2.) BG1-2 is much... MUCH harder than anything NwN2 throws at you.

3.) If you're alright with reloading alot and dying then it's fine. You're just going to have to be carried by your party until long into BG2.

raoniluna

Just a few more questions, I guess these are the last:
1 - The mage have good magics to improve my melee? Something like Greater Magic Weapon from 3rd edition? (I mean offensively, I know that they can boost defenses)

2 - As a pure Kensai lvl 40 I'd have +13 hiit and damage? This sounds crazy! I guess I'm going to look for some BG2 faqs...

SionIV

1.) No the mage has very little to improve damage of your kensai but that isn't needed either. Defensive is much more powerful in BG2 than offensive. Your kensais melee abilities can be shut down by one single spell and that can be removed by having magical abilities.

2.) The hit isn't as important when you're that high level.

3.) I really can't remember how it works with the kensai. The swashbuckler gets improved AC and such after level 20 but its been such a long time since i played kensai that i really can't remember if they also progress past 20 with their damage. They should do it but i'm not 100% sure.

BobC

If you're worried about kensai's lack of ablility to use armor in early bg1, simply use magic equipment and the mage/cleric armor buffs. It's more than enough to help the class fight in the front lines (IMO).

AstroBryGuy

1. Haste, Improved Haste, and Tenser's Transformation would improve melee combat (Haste by granting more attacks) and Tenser's Transformation doubles HP, grants -4 AC bonus, and +2 to hit and damage. There are also spells that can create (temporary) magic weapons if you're lacking a weapon at the moment (but you'll probably have better equipment).

2. Yes, that sounds about right, but at level 40, the +13 to hit isn't necessary. With strength bonuses, weapon mastery, enchantments, your THAC0 is ridiculously low already.

raoniluna

Well, even if I could do 20/20 I'd still lose 6 hit and damage, I will probably go full kensai if they ever release the game =/

It is not supposed to work, that's what the explanation in the original post is about. I get it, kensai/mage is god, period, but I'm more inclined to the crappy pure kensai, I played good characters and builds from 1990 (I was 6) to 2008 (I was 24), now I'm done with these things. I have these characters in my mind and all I want is to represent them in the game and this character would not betray his dedication to his weapon for magic, not when that means that he would be less proficient with his weapon, if that meant more attack power, then, of course, he would since it ouldn't be a betrayal but further development of his abilities.

SionIV

Hats of to you if you're going to play a pure kensai and ignore dual classing to mage. Just be prepared for many frustrating moments.

raoniluna

I plan another playthrough with a bard blade, hope it won't be as nightmarish! But that's it, after you make builds of hundreds of damage per round or 70 AC then you want to be just a normal guy hahahahahaha

SionIV

1.) This is 2 edition so you'll want as low AC and Thac0 as possible.

2.) The swashbuckler is also a great character that lives by his weapons and get the +1 damage and +1 Thac0 the kensai get.

raoniluna

1. I know about the low AC, but I still use terms like BAB and other since I'm mainly 3.5/Pathfinder player

2. Hum... I will take a look at the swashbuckler, thansk

elminster

One distinction about the swashbuckler is that (at least until you get whirlwind) you get a lot less attacks per round (APR) with it. It doesn't benefit from the APR bonuses you get by having specialisation in a weapon (**) or with grandmastery (*****) . Also obviously the attack bonuses (+1 damage/+1 thac0) are given less frequently with the swashbuckler (every 3 levels for the Kensai vs every 5 for the swashbuckler) though it makes up for that with its AC.

SionIV

You can still get 10 APR (Max) with a swasbuckler and he got the best armor class in the whole game.

elminster

SionIV said:

You can still get 10 APR (Max) with a swasbuckler and he got the best armor class in the whole game.

Whirlwind (the ability that grants you 10 APR) only lasts 1 round. AC matters less by the time you get it and Hardiness (plus your higher health) can soak up a lot of damage on any fighter. In any case my main intention was to point out to raoniluna that non-warriors don't get the same 1/2 APR bonus for specialisation that warriors (like the Kensai) gets. That is something that at present isn't mentioned in the description for the class (though it is in the manual under weapon proficiencies).

Lateralus

Go to level 7 for the extra attack and then switch, level 13 is insanely over rated and it sounds like an extremely boring grind jut to get your fighting skill back. IN BG1 you can hit level 8 as a mage and use stoneskin.

raoniluna

I guess it is a matter of understanding what I want and looks like elminster got it. But thank you all for trying to help, even if I don't want to use it in this playthrough I am learning about the game and maybe I will put these informations to good use in a near future.

elminster

One recommendation I would have would be for you to get the shield amulet. Effectively it gives you scale mail armor that lasts for 5 turns (5 minutes game time not including pauses). When it is reduced to one charge you can sell it back to a merchant and then buy it again (it'll cost a lot more though). You can buy one from a merchant in BGEE in...

one of the tents on the Nashkel Carnival map

or find it in BG2 in...

the dungeon of the de'Arnise Keep

Either way it will help address the AC issue.

Shin

raoniluna said:

I already read some guides, I know it is a blaphemy to not be a fighter-mage and in fact I want to

If you want to that's fine, but don't get guide-fooled. The F/M combo is common, synergistic/powergamish and arguably rather cheesy (especially with a kensai), but a single class kensai is perfectly capable as well. That it would be somehow improper to not dual fighters to mages is just nonsense. Personally I never do it as I find it ruins immersion to have one character lacking weaknesses to such a degree.

Lord_Tansheron

If you want to get the maximum out of a Kensai, dual at level 13. APR is the single biggest contributor to damage output in the game, doubly so for a class that gets damage/hit bonuses to their attacks. Aside from the 1/2 APR, you also gain more damage/thac0, a little HP, and an extra use of Kai.

It will be more of a hassle to regain levels to be sure. How much of a hassle, that depends on your party setup and your mods etc. If you want to min/max it, you can also pool XP by setting up big-XP quests to be turned in after you dual, as well as mass-scribe scrolls to regain a good chunk quickly (I'm usually lvl4-6 of mage instantly, just from scrolls).

The advantage of dualing later is a considerable gain in damage output during the mid to late game; the disadvantage is diminished power in the early to mid game, especially right after dualing. Whether that trade-off is worth it to you depends on several factors. Think about what parts of the game you need what to beat, and how much of a problem it is for you. Also consider your party composition and size, how well you can protect/carry the fresh dual etc. There is no absolute blanket solution to this, it depends on personal variables.

raoniluna

Shin said:

raoniluna said:

I already read some guides, I know it is a blaphemy to not be a fighter-mage and in fact I want to

If you want to that's fine, but don't get guide-fooled. The F/M combo is common, synergistic/powergamish and arguably rather cheesy (especially with a kensai), but a single class kensai is perfectly capable as well. That it would be somehow improper to not dual fighters to mages is just nonsense. Personally I never do it as I find it ruins immersion to have one character lacking weaknesses to such a degree.

It is not that I want, it is more about the characters concept, he will train whatever makes he the greatest master with his weapon being it martial or magical, he cares little about his self preservation, mastering the weapon is above everuthing else for him.

Shin

raoniluna said:

Shin said:

raoniluna said:

I already read some guides, I know it is a blaphemy to not be a fighter-mage and in fact I want to

If you want to that's fine, but don't get guide-fooled. The F/M combo is common, synergistic/powergamish and arguably rather cheesy (especially with a kensai), but a single class kensai is perfectly capable as well. That it would be somehow improper to not dual fighters to mages is just nonsense. Personally I never do it as I find it ruins immersion to have one character lacking weaknesses to such a degree.

It is not that I want, it is more about the characters concept, he will train whatever makes he the greatest master with his weapon being it martial or magical, he cares little about his self preservation, mastering the weapon is above everuthing else for him.

Well, both technically and RP-wise, staying single class kensai will net you more mastery over your weapon. Compared to a kensai/mage he will have plenty of other weaknesses, but in terms of weapon skill/damage alone he will excel.
Dualing a kensai to a mage was never about boosting their weapon-handling but rather, as you probably know, complement the considerable kensai weapon offense with the defensive and defense-stripping abilities of a mage.

raoniluna

Shin said:

raoniluna said:

Shin said:

raoniluna said:

I already read some guides, I know it is a blaphemy to not be a fighter-mage and in fact I want to

If you want to that's fine, but don't get guide-fooled. The F/M combo is common, synergistic/powergamish and arguably rather cheesy (especially with a kensai), but a single class kensai is perfectly capable as well. That it would be somehow improper to not dual fighters to mages is just nonsense. Personally I never do it as I find it ruins immersion to have one character lacking weaknesses to such a degree.

It is not that I want, it is more about the characters concept, he will train whatever makes he the greatest master with his weapon being it martial or magical, he cares little about his self preservation, mastering the weapon is above everuthing else for him.

Well, both technically and RP-wise, staying single class kensai will net you more mastery over your weapon. Compared to a kensai/mage he will have plenty of other weaknesses, but in terms of weapon skill/damage alone he will excel.
Dualing a kensai to a mage was never about boosting their weapon-handling but rather, as you probably know, complement the considerable kensai weapon offense with the defensive and defense-stripping abilities of a mage.

Glad you understand me =D

FinneousPJ

A pure Kensai is perfectly viable from level 1 to the end.