Sorcerer Or Mage?
Soltra
Member Posts: 19
I've recently completed Baldur's Gate for the second time (Once as Fighter, Once as Thief) and I want to start my evil play through as a magic character, however I rarely used magic before and want to know which is better, Mage (Or one of it's kits) or Sorcerer (or again, one of the kits). I am leaning towards Sorcerer but I've heard rumours that the Stat build for Sorcerer is broken and completely different from the Mage. If any vets of Baldur's Gate could give some tips, it would be very appreciated.
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Neither is necessarily better than the other.
The difference between a sorcerer and conjurer (or any mage specialist) at the BGEE level cap concerning the number of castings per day is... As for the sorcerer stats, sorcerers don't have any prime requisite (for mages this is intelligence). By that I mean they only need to have a minimum of 9 intelligence and 9 charisma (minimum requirements like this vary with specialist mages). Since they can't dual class basically it just means sorcerers generally** have more options when it comes to adjusting stats at character creation over specialist mages (with the exception of the Wild Mage). Also intelligence and charisma have no impact on a sorcerers spell casting or their ability to learn spells.
*Note: The number of Level 1 spells you can cast can be doubled with a ring found in the game. So it would be 10 for specialist mage and 12 for sorcerers.
** Note: Dragon Disciples have higher Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma requirements than Sorcerers (a human Dragon Disciple will however only need 3 intelligence as a minimum).
My personal feeling is that sorcerers have more firepower (many casts of a limited number of often-useful spells) and greater utility within their narrow selection, whereas mages are overall more flexible and versatile. Sorcerers also gain new spells slower than mages, and can't gain experience from scribing new spells as they don't have functional spellbooks and can't learn spells other than what they get from leveling.
Playing-wise, I've found sorcerers to require less micromanagement (you have to think about the initial spell selections, but after that they're set). RP-wise, since they don't gain spells from interacting with the world, they feel significantly less like scholars/scientists compared to mages; never using their minds to discover and learn spells, but rather just gaining new innate abilities as they level up.
Finally, sorcerers can't dual- or multiclass, which is a bit of a drawback as well whether you'd want to go fighter/mage for a completely different character, or just be a mage with a couple of thief levels so you can handle all traps and locks yourself.
All in all they're a fairly different experience, so it all depends on how you like your character to be.
A conjurer is the best bet for starters. Its only big disadvantage is not being able to cast identify, which can be remedied by a bard.
Wild mage is tons of fun, and they are powerful, but can cause trouble and mayhem with wild surges. Definitely a more advanced option if you want to have some fun and randomness. Also, their main perk is they can try to cast higher lvl spells than they can normally cast via Nahal's reckless dweomer spell.
A sorcerer is for the expert, once you know the ins-and outs of all the spells and have devised a strategy for yourself, you know which spells to pick and cast them over and over.
Additionaly, a cleric/mage or cleric/illusionist gnome pc can be fun to learn the tricks of spell casting of bg. These characters get nearly all the spells available and you can experience and learn with them. Can be fun.
But regardless, Sorcerer spell selection, generally you will be fine as long as you don't go with spells that only affect certain HD (Hit Dice) enemies such as Sleep, they will stop being useful a few levels after choosing them, don't take too many protection spells, while they are useful in certain sitations, those situations might not come up so often... And I don't think Identify is a smart for sorcerers.
Any of the specialist mages are good I suppose, just gotta keep in mind what you give away on each of them...
Technically speaking, due to the extreme combat focus BG has, the sorcerer is technically better. With good spell picks, you can handle any possible situation, and it doesn't really require meta knowledge, as a mage does to plan for the future (it's relatively easy to plan a sorcerers spell list if you just read all the spells carefully, and understand the most basic game mechanics, the hardest part is generally deciding the order to get them in for maximum effectiveness (always take magic missile last, if you intend to pick it up at all)).
If you are only playing BGEE with support mages like Edwin, I believe most people with some common sense will manage just fine with a sorceror. It's not like the earth will fall off its axis if someone chooses infravision. There are so many scrolls, wands, and potions that you can survive most choices.
And if you are just going to play BGEE, I would contend there are few more valuable spells than sleep for a sorceror.
I understand the cautions about sorcerors, but it was one of my first plays and I thoroughly enjoyed it despite my inexperience.
I'd recommend Blind or spook myself (end up taking both anyway, just blind is usually first), due to them being devastating vs strong enemies and the ability to cast them repeatedly if they don't stick (a blind mage/archer is a dead mage/archer, and melee characters are MUCH less deadly. And spook has a growing save penalty that keeps it useful for keeping a really strong enemy out of the fight for awhile), and letting someone else handle sleep, or getting a wand of it.
You'll end up with 2 debuffs and 0 damage dealing spells.
Btw I would raccomend Magic Missile and Shield to start with.
Shield could also be left,there's an amulet available if you know where to go and buy it.Just a question of planning how to stay alive early game and who's in your party to look after you.
Magic missile needs AT LEAST 4 missiles before it's worth using (it's a waste of a spell slot vs ANYTHING else until that point..and is still largely inferior to blind/spook, except vs targets completely immune to status effects), so I usually just take it dead last (level 9 pick) so it's at full power.
Darts are just as effective as magic missiles, prior to the 4th missile, and allows you to save slots and spell per round usage for other things. (shield, blind, spook, X, Magic missile is my usual 1st level picks, in that order. X is Usually burning hands, for a back-up troll killer or protection from evil for several nice effects, though you could technically get MM for the 4th pick...the last 2 picks are pretty flexible).
Sorcerers should NOT be focusing on dealing damage in the early game. You don't have enough caster levels to make it worth the slots vs debuff/buff spells. Wands are where early game magic damage will be coming from, they generally cast at around 6-7th level, and don't take up your daily uses, allowing more buff up time or more disabling vs enemies.
(Even Silke at Beregost spams Stoneskin and MI, to give you an idea).
So no, Magic Missile is definitely not the same as throwing darts. Not even closer.
And stoneskin is a joke of defense...ooh..you're protected from physical attacks...and now you're blind...enjoy aiming those spells with a 0 sight radius while my elemental damage equipped melee characters %^$# your face off (assuming the party cleric doesn't instantly KO them with a command, since I never memorize healing spells). Even solo, I still use the exact same spell list. There's plenty of easily acquired wands that can do 10x the damage to a whole group, that a single MM would deal (hell, Immy has a wand of MM at the start of the game...if you intend to use it as a disruption (which is actually LESS likely to work then them failing a blind save).
...come at me bro.
To get back on track though.Mages are totally flexible you can change your strategy as you go along.With Sorcerors your limited in that case.More spells to use sure but your shoe horned a bit with your spell choice.Both are great to use though as a PC.
AS much as I love mages...their flexibility of spell knowledge is rendered pointless by how limited in scope the BG saga is....in PnP, Mages blow sorcerers away, due to the ridiculous amount of useful spells and effects to choose from. In BG....there's just lots of redundancies that don't really matter or are pointless, and you can freely ignore 93% of the spell catalog.
And picking a sorcerers spells is easy, as long as you understand the basic mechanics of the system, which even mages require knowledge of to be effective. The spell descriptions are satisfactory, as long as you know what everything they're talking about means.
Then again....perhaps that's just my personal style of magic usage. Buffs and Debuffs are generally just more efficient use of slots...and since I use more PnP accurate rest-limits (only in Inns or specifically designated situations, and only when fatigued), most DD just can't be justified.
Btw I heard this anonymous rumor that you pick Magic Missile at character creation. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT, WOW YOU MUST BE THE WORST BG PLAYER OF ALL TIME. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PICK INFRAVISION AND REFLECTED IMAGE AT FIRST LEVEL, YOU FOOL.
Go through the lists and start jotting down the spells that are important for your party, character, etc. and consider how many of them you actually need. Chances are you'll end up with a list where you can get 80% of them regardless and the remaining 20% aren't all that important anyway. Hell I have Identify on my Sorcerer and after about level 5 it damn near ends up being the most cast spell, but if I got rid of it the only thing that would change is I'd spend some more money at the shops and have 40k I don't know what to do with instead of 60k I don't know what to do with.
i don´t know why as good as everyone thinks that sorcerer is stronger then mage.
true, sorcerers seen so damn strong, because they don´t need to look for scrolls, have more spells per day and can use any spell as long as they have an unused charge in the spells lvl. as big con, their variety of spells sucks hard compare to the mage. the secret is, both, the mage and the sorcerer can cast spells endlessly often without resting, if they are build on recharging. the moment u have endless spellcharges on every lvl, all the sorcerers benefits are worthless, while the variety of different spells of the mage remains valueable.
and NO, THAT BUILD IS NEITHER A CHEAT NOR A BUG OR EXPLOIT, its a 100% legit build
to explain it one by one:
to name the child, let´s call it aladin build
1. normal mage or specialist?
the build works with both, since specialists just get some extra spell charges, the build makes them as worthless and week compare to the pure "aladin mage", as the sorcerer.
there is just one exception, the wild mage. having nahls in the spellbook is not necessary but a nice boost (i will explain later)
2. race?
doesnt matter at all, as long as you can play it as (wild)mage. i personally dislike elves but their resists are worth taking into account.
3. attributes
str: since a strengh boosting item is a waste of the slot on any mage, some points are nice if yourbaggage is getting heavy, besindes that, you wont need it
dex: generel reduction or armor class is something of no harm. in addition some players like to attack some encounters with slings or magic meteors. to sumarize, if you can spare the points, max it to 18.
con: usually 16, not more not less. if you plan to reach it with tomes, you can start with less.
int: MAX IT. it´s your prime attribute. the more you have, the more different spells can be copied in your book and thats all you need. besindes, allthough you dont need many charges, there is no harm in getting some for free.
wis: MAX IT. that build is based on a high wisdom score (will be explained later). everything below 18 in the start is a fail.
cha: you soon get a ring that sets your cha to 18 and you have the friends spell. charisma is a dumpstat.
an example
str: 14
dex: 16
con: 16
int: 18
wis: 18
cha: 6
thats a total of 88 points (hope i did not calculate wrong). rolling a total of 88 happens quite fast usually.
4. items is shall collect?
after your new (wild)mage is created, you just play him on the normal way for a while.
the items you shall collect on your journey are:
-staff of the magister (under the bridge in athkatla, beware the fight you have to do for that is one of the hardest in the game. at least if you wanna have the staff before returning from underdark)
-robe of vecna (purchase in the adventures market from deidre)
with thoos 2 items you can stay invisible and cast very fast, that way you reduce the chance getting interrupted to a likelyhood you can ignore.
-collect everything that increases wisdom and intelligence (keep in mind that you start with 18 wisdom, can find up to 3 tomes and an ion stone and boost for another time with lums machine in watchers keep for a total of 23 in the end)
5: how do i recharge my spells now?
the answer is simple, the wish spell.
you may think thats just madness, but it works.
when you summoed the geenie (thats why i called the thing aladin build), you always select a reapeatable wish. with a wisdom score of 18 or better, you have huge chance of getting the option to recharge all used spells in your spellbook. with a huge chance i mean something like 90%. so whenever your spellbook is feeling a bit empty, summon the geenie and refill as you please. for that purpose its good to have more than one slot occupied by the wish spell. the even better alternative is the wild mage with nahs sorcery. especially on a high lvl, maybe with a chaos shield sopell ahead, you will as good as always get the geenie you wanted.#
that build may sounds more like gambling but with the right wisdom score, the chance is so high, that you will get the option of recharging that often, that you won´t need a rest for your spellbook any more. besides that, other classes, even sorcerers also need to rest from time to time. (another tip for wild mages. you can fill several lvl 1 slots with nahls. if you want magic missiles, just use nahls for them, wich will usually work and more often than miss, you will do a double cast. the other usefull lvl 1 magespell is identfy. for that go to the slums of athkatla, let old gealan lead you to his house and go to the merchant upstairs. that guy sells you goggles that identify 3 items/day for you and just cost something like 1000 gold).
have fun with aladin and laugh at that neat sorcerers^^
Sure, I'll grant you, it's not strictly an exploit. Does have a rather cheesy smell to it though. Also, it kinda depends on you being able to (repeatedly) cast the Wish spell, which in turn depends on you being at least level 18, which in turn depends on you getting 3,000,000 XP. Which takes a while to get to. For a rather significant portion of the game, pretty much all of it depending on how you play and whether you do ToB, this is entirely irrelevant to the Sorcerer vs Mage comparison.
Also, what's with the wall of text? You could've made the same point in a single paragraph (get high WIS, get to level 18, use Wish to replenish your spells over and over again == versatility of mage + spellpower of sorcerer; hmm, don't even need a full paragraph).