Sure, once you get all of that stuff, Wizards trump Sorcerers. But ONLY then.
I am a huge supporter of Wizards simply because I like them better. I role play my wizard such that he has to have an 18 INT and has to push his stats as far as he can go.
With that having been said, I acknowledge that Sorcerers gain more spells per day and, provided you know what spells to pick, will pretty much rule the roost in terms of raw power. You have to build them appropriately though. And if you don't know how to do so, or if you choose not to do so, you won't get there.
But yeah, the whole excessive wisdom/wish spell gimick just smells cheesy to me. May be 'Legit' and all, but wouldn't be my choice of play styles.
Once upon a time I used to be a hardcore advocate for Wizards over Sorcerers. As far as P&P goes I might still say wizards edge out sorcerers as far as ability to acclimate to different situations goes. But in a video game, especially one where there are only so many different spells to choose from and there are several clear winners to pick amongst them, and if you plan to primarily be a dps caster, Sorcerer's seem to be the "fun" choice and largely superior. They have nukes with a few utilities and they are never without their spells so long as they get the opportunity to recharge. A wizard can prepare different spells for different situations but that often requires foresight that comes with having played the game before or reloading from a spectacular defeat.
A sorcerer "has what he has" and has to make clear choices each level to determine what spells he'll have access to. The wizard isnt alone in requiring foresight however. The sorcerer simply uses a broader brush as it were. While the mage can change his capabilities on the fly, the sorcerer has to plan out his spell selection from start to finish so he is sure to have the tools he needs to complete the game. But no matter what the sorcerer will always have those tools at hand (as long as he has any casts left of the appropriate levels) whereas the wizard can find himself cursing for not preparing a wizard eye to scout ahead or an extra stoneskin for an ally.
The sorcerer doesn't have as many options but with the right selection of spells in a video game they tend to be simpler to play than wizards. In a P&P game that lack of options has far more impact because the story is not constrained by video game limitations and those odd utility spells (not dont usually even make it into a video game like say Rope Trick) become far more important. Not to say a sorcerer can't be great in P&P too. But the wizard will have the potential to handle a wider variety of situations compared to the sorcerer in a P&P game vs. a video game.
I would take a Sorcerer over a mage anytime.The ability to cast Stoneskin+Blur+Mirror Image+Fireshield (i'm talking BG2 here)as many times as you need negates the need to rest and recharge all the time.With those four spells cast,you're untouchable if targeted in melee,leaving you free to cast your numerous other spells.A mage can do the same but this also limits their other spell choices and they will have to recharge and rest everytime after a battle.
Early game a mage can be caught out in the random ambushes because their defences are down,a sorcerer can walk about with stoneskin and blur cast on themselves all the time and still be able to cast the other two spells because they have them at will.With the proper spell choices a Sorcerer is a total nuker and tank(by that i mean armoured not in the melee sense).
Hmm. For me, the shining incentive to play a mage, is that the mage can prepare for any pre-known threat. Mages are invincible as long as they *know*, what is coming. With either a friend ranger or thief, or else a selection of divination spells to always *know* what is ahead, mages will always dominate the BG game.
This whole discussion reminds me of Piers Anthony's "Xanth" novels. In those novels, the two, overwhelmingly, most powerful magicians were, the main character, Bink, who is subtly but absolutely immune to any and all magical influence whatsoever, and the elderly and, as it plays out, pretty much omnipotent Magician Humphrey, who has no magical power whatsoever other than absolute foreknowledge of everything that ever has, is, or will happen, then, now, or forever more, either in Xanth, Proton, or Mundania.
Humphrey gains his omnipotence by having foreseen *EVERYTHING, EVER*, and having stockpiled every item, every fortification, every relationship, and every interaction with the Universe, that he might ever need, now and forever, AMEN, to accomplish whatever ends he might choose for the Universe.
He is, somewhat amusingly, Piers Anthony's actual, story-immersed, POWERGAMER, in his omnipotence in Anthony's Universe. (Which includes a kind of Trinity of Space, Time, and All Reality that he names Xanth, Mundania, and Proton.)
Now, the sorcerer from BG, on the other hand, is the embodiment of the "one trick pony". His strength is his massive mana and spell power per rest cycle. He is a fearsome force, able to overwhelm his opponents with his magical shock and awe, BUT, throw something at him that he has not anticipated, and, he has only a weak mortal ability to anticipate his challenges from situation to situation, and he crumples like a house of cards!
The BG character class that can legitimately, in character, and without breaking immersion, anticipate and counter every move conceivable by every possible enemy, both in the past, present, and future, is the Magician Humphrey - THE WIZARD. You should bow before Him and fear Him. He transcends all of Time and Space. He is the closest thing that any mortal being will become to being a god.
I'm going to point out that, even with 18 Wisdom, you have nowhere remotely close to a 90% chance to receive the desired option when using Wish. I don't know what the actual % is, a Sorcerers.net guide claims 20% which seems accurate from experience. It's not a very good tactic in my opinion, there's too many good spells to be bothering with Wish and hoping you get an option you actually want. There are far more reliable ways to have `infinite` spells in the game. Spell Trap and Project Image for example.
Ignoring the fact that this Wish tactic is pretty awful to begin with, requires level 18, can't be used for 90% of the trilogy including all of BGEE and most of SOA, it still doesn't make Mage `better`. The Mage still has to pick and choose what to memorize. A Sorcerer can adapt in the middle of combat, a Mage has to prepare for what's coming and may end up in a hell of a pinch when something unexpected happens and they don't have enough of a given spell memorized.
They're different, not necessarily better. I find Sorcerer more fun, and due to the lack of good spells I don't find a Mage worthwhile outside of RP. But that's me, people really just need to decide for themselves if they'd rather have more flexibility in preparing for a fight, or more flexibility in adapting during the fight.
Edit: Except for Wild Mage, which offers an entirely different option from either of the above. Mostly Mage part Sorcerer (with NRD), capable of wildly powerful things... both good and bad. But, Wild Mage is pretty terrible until at least SOA in my opinion, NRD is unusable as it's far more likely to hurt than help until you get Improved Chaos Shield and several levels.
For me, the downfall of any sorcerer is quite simply the first level spell 'Protection from petrification'. This spell is not one that your normal sorcerer is going to take as a priority first level spell, because how many times do you really need it in game? But when you need it, you NEED it. Now, sure the scroll drops more often than water in BG1, so it really isn't that big a deal. But... if it didn't, it could make the difference between life and death for your party.
Now some might say "meta-gaming". And quite probably you could be right. I mean how do you really know that there are basilisks out there? But, it is possible that your party figures out that 'Something' is turning people to stone in a certain area of the map and best be prepared. A sorcerer in your group won't have any recourse but to buy the protection scrolls in bulk. A Wizard only needs one and the ability to prepare.
Just to be clear, i understand that is VERY situational and 99% of the time a properly built Sorcerer has more flexibility and raw power than a wizard. Just saying 99% of the time isn't 100% of the time.
Besides, the ability to scribe scrolls makes for a nice little XP lift. And from a Role playing perspective, My wizard "Needs" to learn every single spell imaginable. It's just the way he is.
If you want your talk about where the Mage is better then talk about using Sleep at level 1. Access to Web, Mirror Image, Horror and Melf's Acid Arrow at level 3. Haste, Skull Trap and Melf's Minute Meteors by level 5 and so on. Mage opens up more possibilities sooner and isn't stuck with them for life so they can take the temporarily useful like Sleep. Lots of good reasons to use a Mage if that's your thing.
Of course you'll have to find the spells first which isn't always easy.
@the_spyder I'd say Protection from Petrification is hardly a reason to prefer a mage. Those are sufficiently situational that you can simply make do with a couple of scrolls, which are easy enough to get. I wouldn't bother scribing them for my mages either, for that matter. Too much hassle to have to memorize them in advance, and even more so if you don't meta-game.
As @kab mentions, it's spells like Sleep and Blind that are more of an issue, since they are quite useful early on but become obsolete later, and cannot easily be replaced by a couple of scrolls. Though this applies mostly to the lowest levels of spells, so on the whole it's not too serious an issue either.
Well it's more than that. It's all the time you spend in game with access to spells a Sorcerer does not yet have. It's easy to talk about the end result at experience cap, but you spend most of your time getting there. That's what I was referring to.
A Mage can pick and choose from 4-5 useful spells immediately. The Sorcerer has to wait, and then can only pick one at first. Eventually they'll get 4-5, but there's a lot of encounters along the way.
i agree with you that the text was a bit longer than necessary, but as long as you dont maximize the your attribute to that goal, its not have as good, so the post contained somekind of guide.
it also true that it takes a while until that combo works, but depending on size of your party and the number of subquests you complete, you can have all theese things when you reach underdark or ealier.
especially when you wanna do solo runs, it´s the only way to do it with an arcane char without resting all the time
anyway, in lower lvls, the difference between sorc and mage is not big. especially in baldurs gate 1, both of them just suck.
I think it really depends on whether you want to be able to easily adapt to situations or if you want to just throw fireballs at every problem. If its the latter, go with sorcerers. That isn't to say sorcerers can't be useful either, just the spectrum of situations they can handle is going to be somewhat more limited. Personally I've found a DPS sorcerer with a mage for support (and a backing party obviously) can be quite a deadly combination. Have one "Magic" and the other one "Counter-magic"
@Morte50 - my example wasn't necessarily intended to say that protection from petrification was 'The' example, but that there are situations and spells which sorcerers miss out on because they are not as mainstream as the 'Popular' spells. And there are situations where these are useful or even necessary. As for example, if you encounter a Basilisk, you had better have some protection.
I'm going to point out that, even with 18 Wisdom, you have nowhere remotely close to a 90% chance to receive the desired option when using Wish. I don't know what the actual % is, a Sorcerers.net guide claims 20% which seems accurate from experience. It's not a very good tactic in my opinion, there's too many good spells to be bothering with Wish and hoping you get an option you actually want. There are far more reliable ways to have `infinite` spells in the game. Spell Trap and Project Image for example. .
as is said in the opening line, the chance that this tactic works may depends on the version you play.
anyway, i discovered this the wish tactic for me when i played a "normal" wild mage. i found out that the stupid geenie as good as always offered me the total recharge. it also works with the limited wish spell if i remember correctly, but you take a higher risk, because you dont know the true result before you select the option.
That's weird, I wish I had your luck in getting the option. I try not to rest except when it makes sense to do so. I like the Spell Trap and Project Image combo, it uses two spells I want regardless, but takes even longer to be available than wish obviously.
I always feel like my Charname sorcerers have to take Sleep and Protection from Petrification for two of their first level spells, even if I start them in BG2, because I know that they would not have survived BG1 without those two spells. I usually take Sleep and Magic Missile at character creations, and then Prot from Pet, and maybe even Identify. At the 2nd level spell breaks I take Web and Invisibility. Haste and then Fireball for the 3rd level spell breaks. (Or Fireball and then Haste, depending.)
In BG1, I think sorcerers dominate, because the really good 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells are no-brainers.
But, in BG2, starting with the 4th level spell breaks, I think that mages begin to surpass the sorcerers. Almost everything on the 4th level spell list is useful, and there are a plethora of almost critical spells on that level. Stoneskin, Improved Invisible, and so many others. Emotion: Hopeless and Confusion make fantastic crowd control for at least half of BG2. Minor Sequencer is great for one spell slot.
And it gets worse from there for the sorcerer, who has to spend significant portions of the game with only ONE spell per high spell level. Spell Immunity, Lower Resistance, Breach, Cloudkill, Sequencer, Contingency, Mislead, True Sight, Project Image, Khelben's Warding Whip, Spell Turning, Simulacrum, Power Words, Horrid Wilting, Time Stop, Feedom, WIsh, Imprison.
The intelligence-based mage has access to all of these mighty magics almost as soon as their respective spell levels are opened up, which, incidentally, will happen while the mage is one character level lower than the sorcerer will be before gaining access to the next highest spell level.
Bottom line: sorcerers have the edge in BG1. Mages have the edge in BG2.
I've played mages for more than ten years, simply because I didn't like the idea of how sorcerous magic works. Then I finally gave the sorceror a chance.
It's a great advantage to know which spells work when, and to have your own personal favorites that fit into your strategies, but hardly necessary. Just remember to choose spells that level up/don't become obsolete as you progress. In BG:EE, Glitterdust is a must. In BG2, Project Image is to good to be true (which it actually is).
One nice thing about the sorceror is that you are much more in the fray and in the game. My mages far to often just walk in the back until his one or two adequate spells for that part of the game are needed. And the spells fast run out in battle. The sorceror just keeps on casting, and you may adjust as you go thanks to not having to memorize beforehand. Even though limited in number of known spells, I find it much more flexible.
All in all, I actually prefer the sorceror. It only took me a decade (and some) to realise it.
@belgarathmth Getting Sleep I can understand, it's a useful enough spell early on that it can be worth having even if you won't use it later anymore. But in my experience, Petrification is rare enough that you can easily make do without your Mage/Sorcerer knowing it. Thalantyr alone has three Potions of Mirrored Eyes and two Protection from Petrification scrolls, and you'll find plenty of the latter as random loot.
Generally, I'd say there is one good reason for taking a Sorcerer rather than a Mage. As @Battlehamster said, the combination of one offensive spell-caster and one counter-mage is quite potent. Certainly in BG2, having two arcane spell-casters is hardly overkill. And (thus far) the only way of getting a Sorcerer in BG2 is to be one yourself, while there are plenty of NPC mages you can pick up.
As a Sorcerer think long term.Sleep is great in the beginning but as the game goes on you'll find it will become redundant.So get a wand for this.Same with Petrification use scrolls for this.MM isn't useful until above 3rd or 4th level but later it's awesome.Basically think long term with a Sorcerer,don't take spells that will become useless or have less effect later.With the right spells after level 4 your enemies will know all about you in battles but only if you've chosen right.
@Banex Even thinking long-term, at level 1 there is enough room for picking stuff like Sleep. The only must-haves are Magic Missile and arguably Chromatic Orb, and Spook scales relatively well with level as well. But for the other two slots, there is not such a fierce competition.
The guide you link to picks Burning Hands (for finishing trolls) and Friends, neither of which has that much added value. There are plenty of other ways to finish trolls without spending a Sorcerer spell-slot on it, and getting a discount at stores is not that big of a deal either. Spells like Sleep and Identify seem a better choice for those slots.
Agree with the friends choice i always take identify as i only have 3 NPCs with me.In BG2 apart from MM and CO most of the other spells are your choice as they aren't that great,as the guide states.Sleep though even in BGEE is useless once you reach Baldurs Gate.The point being even though the other damage spells in level 1 aren't that great at least they're useable,sleep becomes completely redundant even in BG1/BGEE.
Even if the other damage spells at level 1 are usable, I would say there would never be much reason to actually use them in favour of MM or CO. Thus, they are arguably quite as obsolete on higher levels as Sleep would be.
Comments
Sure, once you get all of that stuff, Wizards trump Sorcerers. But ONLY then.
I am a huge supporter of Wizards simply because I like them better. I role play my wizard such that he has to have an 18 INT and has to push his stats as far as he can go.
With that having been said, I acknowledge that Sorcerers gain more spells per day and, provided you know what spells to pick, will pretty much rule the roost in terms of raw power. You have to build them appropriately though. And if you don't know how to do so, or if you choose not to do so, you won't get there.
But yeah, the whole excessive wisdom/wish spell gimick just smells cheesy to me. May be 'Legit' and all, but wouldn't be my choice of play styles.
A sorcerer "has what he has" and has to make clear choices each level to determine what spells he'll have access to. The wizard isnt alone in requiring foresight however. The sorcerer simply uses a broader brush as it were. While the mage can change his capabilities on the fly, the sorcerer has to plan out his spell selection from start to finish so he is sure to have the tools he needs to complete the game. But no matter what the sorcerer will always have those tools at hand (as long as he has any casts left of the appropriate levels) whereas the wizard can find himself cursing for not preparing a wizard eye to scout ahead or an extra stoneskin for an ally.
The sorcerer doesn't have as many options but with the right selection of spells in a video game they tend to be simpler to play than wizards. In a P&P game that lack of options has far more impact because the story is not constrained by video game limitations and those odd utility spells (not dont usually even make it into a video game like say Rope Trick) become far more important. Not to say a sorcerer can't be great in P&P too. But the wizard will have the potential to handle a wider variety of situations compared to the sorcerer in a P&P game vs. a video game.
Early game a mage can be caught out in the random ambushes because their defences are down,a sorcerer can walk about with stoneskin and blur cast on themselves all the time and still be able to cast the other two spells because they have them at will.With the proper spell choices a Sorcerer is a total nuker and tank(by that i mean armoured not in the melee sense).
This whole discussion reminds me of Piers Anthony's "Xanth" novels. In those novels, the two, overwhelmingly, most powerful magicians were, the main character, Bink, who is subtly but absolutely immune to any and all magical influence whatsoever, and the elderly and, as it plays out, pretty much omnipotent Magician Humphrey, who has no magical power whatsoever other than absolute foreknowledge of everything that ever has, is, or will happen, then, now, or forever more, either in Xanth, Proton, or Mundania.
Humphrey gains his omnipotence by having foreseen *EVERYTHING, EVER*, and having stockpiled every item, every fortification, every relationship, and every interaction with the Universe, that he might ever need, now and forever, AMEN, to accomplish whatever ends he might choose for the Universe.
He is, somewhat amusingly, Piers Anthony's actual, story-immersed, POWERGAMER, in his omnipotence in Anthony's Universe. (Which includes a kind of Trinity of Space, Time, and All Reality that he names Xanth, Mundania, and Proton.)
Now, the sorcerer from BG, on the other hand, is the embodiment of the "one trick pony". His strength is his massive mana and spell power per rest cycle. He is a fearsome force, able to overwhelm his opponents with his magical shock and awe, BUT, throw something at him that he has not anticipated, and, he has only a weak mortal ability to anticipate his challenges from situation to situation, and he crumples like a house of cards!
The BG character class that can legitimately, in character, and without breaking immersion, anticipate and counter every move conceivable by every possible enemy, both in the past, present, and future, is the Magician Humphrey - THE WIZARD. You should bow before Him and fear Him. He transcends all of Time and Space. He is the closest thing that any mortal being will become to being a god.
Ignoring the fact that this Wish tactic is pretty awful to begin with, requires level 18, can't be used for 90% of the trilogy including all of BGEE and most of SOA, it still doesn't make Mage `better`. The Mage still has to pick and choose what to memorize. A Sorcerer can adapt in the middle of combat, a Mage has to prepare for what's coming and may end up in a hell of a pinch when something unexpected happens and they don't have enough of a given spell memorized.
They're different, not necessarily better. I find Sorcerer more fun, and due to the lack of good spells I don't find a Mage worthwhile outside of RP. But that's me, people really just need to decide for themselves if they'd rather have more flexibility in preparing for a fight, or more flexibility in adapting during the fight.
Edit: Except for Wild Mage, which offers an entirely different option from either of the above. Mostly Mage part Sorcerer (with NRD), capable of wildly powerful things... both good and bad. But, Wild Mage is pretty terrible until at least SOA in my opinion, NRD is unusable as it's far more likely to hurt than help until you get Improved Chaos Shield and several levels.
Now some might say "meta-gaming". And quite probably you could be right. I mean how do you really know that there are basilisks out there? But, it is possible that your party figures out that 'Something' is turning people to stone in a certain area of the map and best be prepared. A sorcerer in your group won't have any recourse but to buy the protection scrolls in bulk. A Wizard only needs one and the ability to prepare.
Just to be clear, i understand that is VERY situational and 99% of the time a properly built Sorcerer has more flexibility and raw power than a wizard. Just saying 99% of the time isn't 100% of the time.
Besides, the ability to scribe scrolls makes for a nice little XP lift. And from a Role playing perspective, My wizard "Needs" to learn every single spell imaginable. It's just the way he is.
Of course you'll have to find the spells first which isn't always easy.
I'd say Protection from Petrification is hardly a reason to prefer a mage. Those are sufficiently situational that you can simply make do with a couple of scrolls, which are easy enough to get. I wouldn't bother scribing them for my mages either, for that matter. Too much hassle to have to memorize them in advance, and even more so if you don't meta-game.
As @kab mentions, it's spells like Sleep and Blind that are more of an issue, since they are quite useful early on but become obsolete later, and cannot easily be replaced by a couple of scrolls. Though this applies mostly to the lowest levels of spells, so on the whole it's not too serious an issue either.
A Mage can pick and choose from 4-5 useful spells immediately. The Sorcerer has to wait, and then can only pick one at first. Eventually they'll get 4-5, but there's a lot of encounters along the way.
i agree with you that the text was a bit longer than necessary, but as long as you dont maximize the your attribute to that goal, its not have as good, so the post contained somekind of guide.
it also true that it takes a while until that combo works, but depending on size of your party and the number of subquests you complete, you can have all theese things when you reach underdark or ealier.
especially when you wanna do solo runs, it´s the only way to do it with an arcane char without resting all the time
anyway, in lower lvls, the difference between sorc and mage is not big. especially in baldurs gate 1, both of them just suck.
anyway, i discovered this the wish tactic for me when i played a "normal" wild mage. i found out that the stupid geenie as good as always offered me the total recharge. it also works with the limited wish spell if i remember correctly, but you take a higher risk, because you dont know the true result before you select the option.
In BG1, I think sorcerers dominate, because the really good 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells are no-brainers.
But, in BG2, starting with the 4th level spell breaks, I think that mages begin to surpass the sorcerers. Almost everything on the 4th level spell list is useful, and there are a plethora of almost critical spells on that level. Stoneskin, Improved Invisible, and so many others. Emotion: Hopeless and Confusion make fantastic crowd control for at least half of BG2. Minor Sequencer is great for one spell slot.
And it gets worse from there for the sorcerer, who has to spend significant portions of the game with only ONE spell per high spell level. Spell Immunity, Lower Resistance, Breach, Cloudkill, Sequencer, Contingency, Mislead, True Sight, Project Image, Khelben's Warding Whip, Spell Turning, Simulacrum, Power Words, Horrid Wilting, Time Stop, Feedom, WIsh, Imprison.
The intelligence-based mage has access to all of these mighty magics almost as soon as their respective spell levels are opened up, which, incidentally, will happen while the mage is one character level lower than the sorcerer will be before gaining access to the next highest spell level.
Bottom line: sorcerers have the edge in BG1. Mages have the edge in BG2.
It's a great advantage to know which spells work when, and to have your own personal favorites that fit into your strategies, but hardly necessary. Just remember to choose spells that level up/don't become obsolete as you progress. In BG:EE, Glitterdust is a must. In BG2, Project Image is to good to be true (which it actually is).
One nice thing about the sorceror is that you are much more in the fray and in the game. My mages far to often just walk in the back until his one or two adequate spells for that part of the game are needed. And the spells fast run out in battle. The sorceror just keeps on casting, and you may adjust as you go thanks to not having to memorize beforehand. Even though limited in number of known spells, I find it much more flexible.
All in all, I actually prefer the sorceror. It only took me a decade (and some) to realise it.
Getting Sleep I can understand, it's a useful enough spell early on that it can be worth having even if you won't use it later anymore. But in my experience, Petrification is rare enough that you can easily make do without your Mage/Sorcerer knowing it. Thalantyr alone has three Potions of Mirrored Eyes and two Protection from Petrification scrolls, and you'll find plenty of the latter as random loot.
Generally, I'd say there is one good reason for taking a Sorcerer rather than a Mage. As @Battlehamster said, the combination of one offensive spell-caster and one counter-mage is quite potent. Certainly in BG2, having two arcane spell-casters is hardly overkill. And (thus far) the only way of getting a Sorcerer in BG2 is to be one yourself, while there are plenty of NPC mages you can pick up.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/11588-check this link out and you really won't go far wrong in this class.It's for BG2 but there's still some great stuff on there for BGEE.
Even thinking long-term, at level 1 there is enough room for picking stuff like Sleep. The only must-haves are Magic Missile and arguably Chromatic Orb, and Spook scales relatively well with level as well. But for the other two slots, there is not such a fierce competition.
The guide you link to picks Burning Hands (for finishing trolls) and Friends, neither of which has that much added value. There are plenty of other ways to finish trolls without spending a Sorcerer spell-slot on it, and getting a discount at stores is not that big of a deal either. Spells like Sleep and Identify seem a better choice for those slots.