Questions about evil bards and blackguards (lore)

EntropyXII

Even though this is a question primarily about NWN and NWN2 I have put this topic in the general discussion category because I believe the lore might come in useful for BG players as well. There are one or two evil bards roaming around Baldur's Gate and Amn and I have always wondered which deities they might follow...

I was hovering around building a 'Black Bard' type character in NWN2 (Bard/Blackguard) and I was wondering about deities and the like in reference to these classes.

Question number 1: In the Forgotten Realms world, what deities to evil bards follow? I have come to a few conclusions so far - tell me what your opinions are on the matter.

- Cyric is the only god I can think of that will appeal to evil bards and is universal. I say this because the goddess Leira (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Leira) was once an arch nemesis of Oghma, but was killed by Cyric who then took her portfolio of lies and deception etc.

I heard Tiamat is also available, but I figured that would be more for Dragon Disciples. Zehir (Yuan-ti) and Lolth (Drow) have also been mentioned as suggestions on the FR wiki but neither would really make sense for a human.

I just can't seem to find ANYTHING that suggests Cyric has an evil bard following. Nothing at all. It seems strange looking at his portfolio. What do you guys think? (To be honest even if Cyric is a good deity for an evil bard I am unsure I would be happy with this. I HATE Cyric.)

If I cannot find any decent options I am considering taking on the 'No Deity' option, which leads me onto the next question:

Question number 2: Are Blackguard required to be in the service of a dark god? I have always been of the impression that they don't. They just make a pact with the 'devil' (or demon) to gain their powers. If this is the case, I will happily roll a Bard/Blackguard with no deity chosen.

ZanathKariashi

Leira is still worshiped, despite her apparent death. Her worshipers simply view her apparent demise as yet another of her deceptions. (which annoys Cyric to no end, since if they continue to spread and grow, she'll be revived and he'll lose her portfolio).

Evil characters can also worship neutral deities, since they're generally over generic principles that aren't innately good or evil.


Yes, Blackguards are divine casters, and thus must have a divine patron in FR (fiends are just middlemen in the forgotten realms, getting the ball rolling through temptations and what not and then passing them to whichever evil god they're getting kickbacks from). In a generic setting they could simply ally with a demon prince/Arch-Devil, and gain spells via proxy by worshipping CE/LE as a principle source.


Bane/Xvim is pretty common for Blackguards, as is Cyric.


As for bards- Are pretty likely. (Focus on traveling, charming, illusions, and/or trickery)

Akadi - N
Beshaba - CE
Cyric - CE
Gargauth - LE
Mask - NE
Shaundakul - N
Waukeen - N

God

How about... Asmodeus? A fitting choice for a bard. However, at the time of NWN2, Asmodeus was likely not considered a deity yet. Regardless of that, though, a pact with the mightiest of archdevils is more than enough to become a blackguard. Any evil outsider would do, I recall.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - would you be able to provide a source for Blackguards being divine casters please? I have heard nothing but contradictions on the subject.

ZanathKariashi

According to the 3.0/3.5Dungeon masters and SRD they are (upon which the BG version is heavily based).

According to 2nd Ed Complete Paladin (in the section referring to Anti-paladins, which are functionally the same thing), they are.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - I have found a few examples of faithless Blackguards in the Forgotten Realms. Artor Morlin for example: vampire blackguard.

This is confusing - I am like 90% sure I read somewhere that Blackguard do not 'have' to have a deity. It helps if they were fallen paladin/blackguards or cleric/blackguard, but not necessary for rogue/blackguards etc.

I also found this from the creator of the Blackguard class and 'Forgotten Realms Player's Guide' Robert Schwalb:

"...blackguards both break from other paladins in that they don’t channel divine power directly from the gods they serve, but rather they draw it from the moral or immoral quality they champion. There can be a god involved, but there doesn’t have to be; breaking these paladins from the traditional god-mortal relationship gives players a great deal more flexibility when constructing their character identity. You can be a blackguard who follows Bahamut and champions tyranny or, I imagine, a cavalier who follows Erathis and champions valor."

-http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20110330

Urgh, demons, devils, gods and 'moral values'. i think I have a headache.

SCARY_WIZARD

Yap, I also think Blackguards can mooch power from evil outsiders.

I'd say Beshaba would be a pretty good choice for an evil bard. Either that, or no deity, or some sort of greater entity from the Lower Planes... You'd just need to work the evil deity or entity's portfolio into the character.

ZanathKariashi

Oh you can be a blackguard without a divine patron...you just lose all supernatural abilities. Forgotten Realms is iron clad adamant...no divine powers without a divine patron, no exceptions. Demons can tempt you with promises of power and the like, but they are all ultimately allied with one evil god or another who actually provides the spell-casting.

That article isn't FR, and is ignored, because campaign setting rules trump ANY other source.

Schneidend

Blackguards are divine casters, @EntropyXII, but they aren't limited to clear-cut deific entities like Lolth or Bane. In the same way that there can be cultist Clerics of Yeenoghu or Demogorgon, a Blackguard can draw power from powerful archfiends. In 4E, some Blackguards come about simply by sacrificing a piece of their soul to the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow through profane rituals.

EntropyXII

Thanks for all the answers guys. So I CAN be a blackguard but I simply lose divine spell casting without a divine deity?

I'll be honest - I don't play PnP anymore - I would like to pick it back up again but all my old PnP buddies have moves away. Think I mentioned this to @SCARY_WIZARD once in regards to trying some form of PnP online.

For now I have been limited to ADnD rpg's which for the most part do not give blackguards divine spells anyway. I think NWN/NWN2 allows you to take some divine feats, but I could just ignore them.

The idea for the most part was to go with a 'Black Bard' build revolving around the main plot of NWN2. I won't go into spoilers but as we know, the evil side for 'Mask of the Betrayer' does not seem to advocate the main character to really feel obliged to a specific deity, and if it did - Shar or Mask would really be the better options other than 'Cyric' or 'Beshaba'. Shadows and all that. But those would look like more rogue/blackguards rather than bard/blackguards.

@Schneidend - I like the idea of the sacrificing of ones soul to the plane of shadow. Could work very well in NWN2.

Sorry if I am making little sense! I am VERY choosy when I create a new character. If it is not perfect to the rules of the setting and the story I end up restarting a ridiculous amount of times.

Thanks for all the help!

BelgarathMTH

@EntropyXII, if you're interested in online PnP, you might want to check out the roleplaying section of this forum. @LadyRhian runs online PnP games in there, and I'm sure you'd be welcome to join in. I guess the drawback is that it unfolds slowly over time as people post, so you have to keep waiting for things to happen. It might be a fun thing to do, though, especially as something to check periodically and get a little roleplaying done when you can't actually spend a lot of time on the computer. It can also be entertaining to read through their old games.

EntropyXII

@belgarathmth - I'll have a look-see and try and get up to speed xD

LadyRhian

@EntropyXII You'll be welcome!

EntropyXII

Back again xD Can I also ask - what would be a good deity for a swashbuckler? I figured Swashbucklers are roguish fighters, but I cannot see a swashy having faith in Tempus or Helm. Garagos also seems a little bloodthirsty. Any ideas?

Kamigoroshi

@EntropyXII The natural deity choice for a good swashbuckler would probably be Valkur, the Captian of the Waves.
If you're playing an evil swashbuckler who feels "good" then use Umberlee, the Bitch Queen.

EntropyXII

@Kamigoroshi - Agreed, but that would only be in the acknowledgement that my character was a pirate or sailor. Swashbucklers can exist away from these professions (Jarlaxle, amongst others). Roleplaying Valkur or Umberlee into the NWN2 OC seems difficult - already struggling to justify a swashbuckler!

Any non-sailing orientated deities I could use?

Kamigoroshi

Well, there's always Shaunadakul and Akadi who could both be fitting for landlubber swashbucklers. :P
Beshaba, Loviatar, Gargauth and Waukeen can also be deity candidates if your character has some kind of reason to worship them.

EntropyXII

@Kamigoroshi - I was having a look at Waukeen to be honest, but I still can't quite figure out the dogma. It would make sense for me as you begin playing the game with the 'blessed of waukeen' trait.

Whereas it says 'rogues' follow Waukeen, it also mentions she is an enemy of Mask. Would a follower of Waukeen join the shadow thieves or city guard? Does he only think about gold?

To be honest, I have never even considered Waukeen in the past as I always considered her to be a merchant Deity. not really for adventurers (which is why I am also leaning towards Tymora, or simple: No deity). I really am unsure how to roleplay the character in this aspect.

Kamigoroshi

@EntropyXII Yeah, I see your point. If anything, a swashbuckler would only pay lip service to Waukeen and perhaps pray for larger booty.

Have you taken a look at Lliira yet? Since she embodies happiness, freedom, and joyful movement perhaps she could be a prime canditate for your character? Her followers can be of any alignment, although evil ones are somewhat rare amongst her church.

EntropyXII

@Kamigoroshi - I have indeed and it is a name on the list. I get a bit annoyed sometimes as FR seems to lack a deity of 'balance' so to speak. The druidic deities such as Silvanus don't count. It's annoying in many ways that Tymora and Beshaba split from the one true deity of luck: Tyche. Tyche would have been the perfect deity for me. Tis' a shame.

I am beginning to question the wisdom of playing through the OC as a Swashbuckler to be honest. Perhaps (as my original post suggests) I should go for a Bard.. perhaps of Oghma? Or a 'No Deity' rogue.

Urgh, perhaps if I explain a little I may make more sense. I have already completed the game a few times some years ago, but this time I want it to be a character based primarily around myself for immersion reasons and well... fun. Swashbuckler was the only class not taken by other joinable NPC's in the game, and I cannot see myself joining the City Watch. I would label myself a Bard in many aspects but there is already a Bard in the game.

Whereas it would make most sense for me to join the Shadow Thieves, the game seems to be built around joining the NWN9 and whereas I know you can do both, it doesn't really make sense.

My alignment would likely be 'True Neutral'.

-sigh- I am sure a lot of people have a much easier time with this stuff.

Kamigoroshi

@EntropyXII I think I finally found a worthy pantheon to your alter ego character's liking. This deity's portfolios include wealth, luck, chance, nonevil thieves and entrepreneurial skills such as suspicion, trickery, negotiation and sly cleverness - all important traits a skilled swashbuckler would possess. It shouldn't be a problem for followers of this god to ally with the Shadow Thieves as well.

The "catch" (if you can call it that) is I'm speaking about Vergadain, the Laughting Dwarf. Even though this deity is normally only accessible to the dwarven subraces, you can always manually edit your character and change his deity accordingly if you want to play another race.

EntropyXII

-chuckles- This deity makes me want to play a dwarf!

God

I recall there are some really swanky hats in NWN2. They have feathers and all...

artificial_sunlight

Bard of Beshaba can be fun! Singin about bad luck and stuff.
If you play a white Bard you should turn on Eminem music while playing :P
If you go black... you have plenty choises