While I love the thought of an Elven Kensai (or Kensai in general) with a sword, or two swords. I think the best Kensai is the one that uses a staff. No enemies in BG or BG2 (if I remember correctly) are immune to crushing damage or gain reduced damage from crushing.
I do realize their are other options, but I think starting the game with 2++ in TWF and 2++ in Quarterstaffs does 1 Monster make.
(And it allows me to save the 1 handed crushing weapons for other people)
Edit: Also high quality magical staves are always easy to find and usually pretty cheap for their enchantment rate.
The reason people often shun 2h weapons is their inherent APR limitations. With dual-wield, you gain 1 extra APR from your offhand, and potentially another 1 APR if you use a weapon with +1 APR bonus (all of which are 1h, not counting the xbow). APR is by far the biggest contributor to your damage output, particularly as a Kensai. And since Kensai are most effective when dualed to mage, you can't even bank on GWW to get to max APR; neither can you use the +1/2 APR gauntlets. So even taking into account damage output (Staff of the Ram+6 is very high damage) and damage resistances (crushing *is* the best type to be sure), you are likely to be doing more damage dual-wielding than you would be using a 2h.
This, of course, is with BG2/ToB in mind. In BG1 things are very different, as APR isn't nearly as important. The longer reach from a 2h alone could arguably be enough of a reason to choose it, not to mention the incredibly early access to a +3 staff.
Kensai are MOST effective when they stay a kensai.
Being a mage adds literally nothing to class they actually need. Just pointless frills, at the cost of the one friggin thing a Kensai is actually supposed to have, ridiculous melee damage (a 13 dual kensai has a whopping 2 damage advantage over a 9 dualed Fighter (a berseker is equal while enraged)...and nothing to show for it, and if you use defenses, you need to re-read your class description, your weapon is all the defensive measures you need).
A 13 dualed kensai gets less then 1/3 of the benefit they should have, and since there are items or just getting buffs from party mates that are just as effective as being able to cast a particular spell yourself, there's no reason to ever sacrifice your damage for literally NOTHING.... The instant you dual to a mage, you are no longer a kensai, you are F/M with a ton of extra penalties and no bonuses worth mentioning.
If you're willing to use mods, then I recommend picking up the multikit mod, go for a multiclass Elven kensai/swashbuckler build. Can't argue with extra bonuses to THAC0 and AC plus you'll eventually get access to Use Any Item, so you can use armour if you really want to.
And if you really want to go mad, try a half elf kensai/swashbuckler/conjurer, or kensai/swashbuckler/wild mage for the funnies.
@ZanathKariashi: Certainly a pure Kensai deals more damage, but that doesn't mean it's more effective. Effectiveness is a combination of damage output, durability, and utility. A pure Kensai only has one of the three (though in abundance to be sure), a Kensai->Mage has all.
Keep in mind though that these are not gaping differences - in an unmodded vanilla game on core difficulty, it is very likely that the advantages remain almost imperceptibly small. If you however up the difficulty level and get some of the more challenging mods (SCS/Tactics/Ascension), you will quickly notice the value of mage durability and utility. Some argue that a mage is *required* to beat SCS on Insane, and there is no better mage in the game than a Kensai->Mage - and arguably no better fighter, either.
Of course, this is from an objective powergaming perspective. RP-wise, it certainly dilutes the idea of a Kensai (which isn't implemented particularly well to begin with). Though I suppose you could argue that a Kensai->Mage is more of a Kensai with benefits than a Mage with swords, as they will be dealing melee damage 99% of the time and use magic merely for buffing/debuffing. I'll leave the RP concerns for RP people to figure out, but objectively there is no question that a Kensai->Mage is more effective than a pure Kensai.
Advice I have to offer for (the beginning of) BGEE is simple. Daggers. More precisely Throwing Daggers. I'm telling you, it feels almost too powerful. Unable to use ranged weapons? Naw, even Kai works with them.
No...it's not arguable...it's fact that the 13 dual Kensage is worse then a 9 dual plain fighter (though it's very close) or 9 dual berserker (utterly superior in every possible way).
Kensage being at all useful is a myth....one that has repeatedly perpetuated despite being repeatedly proven hundreds of times both on paper AND in practice to be utterly wrong. And is actually even worse the more difficulty mods you add, because they're FLAT OUT INFERIOR to Berserkers and marginally worse then plain fighters
And people CONTINUALLY dismiss damage avoidance. A pure kensai has the highest durability in the game due to all the damage he doesn't take by chunking even friggin' bosses (except for Ravager and Finalbad (or some of the Ascension hardmode bosses) in a single round (often before they can even swing once). (not to mention a respectable 60% DR with hardiness and DoEH (85% vs piercing, if using BoIB), though it's really only needed for Ascension). His only weakness is his speed...once he has boots of speed (and preferably the FoA), he is GOD and it doesn't matter what mods your using. Using a pure kensai is no different then playing a Kensage, aside WAY more damage that isn't reliant on spells (and does more overall damage ANYWAY), you just get your buffs from different sources.
Even Ascension isn't really anymore difficult with SCS or Tactics (mostly due to already being insanely hard, I honestly couldn't see a noticeable difference).
And using a party makes it not worth the downtime, not that it actually matters, since your main character is going to be using the same gear regardless of solo or party.
When it comes to a Kensage, you're losing 90 potential damage per round, even trying to factor in all the damage you could do with spells (which if you abuse resting, every single fight except Ascension should end instantly with CC-Horrid Wilting), a pure kensai is worlds ahead in a gauntlet fight like Ascension, because he continually does that damage. (you also have more Kai charges to throw around for even more damage..
My Kensai deals 390 damage per round (before DR, even after the Ravager's DR it's still 292), under IH or using GWW. 200 without attack rate buffs. As mentioned above, a Kensage deals 90 damage less, and can forever. (Keep in mind, I only rest in inns and only when fatigued...always, no matter the difficulty mods, and no, spell casters aren't needed at all for tactics and SCS.
Advice I have to offer for (the beginning of) BGEE is simple. Daggers. More precisely Throwing Daggers. I'm telling you, it feels almost too powerful. Unable to use ranged weapons? Naw, even Kai works with them.
I actually have been toying with the idea of playing as a dagger-wielding kensai.
Do you recommend dual wielding them, or placing points in single weapon style instead (for the AC bonus)?
I had seen people on here talking about how powerful a kensai is (or has the potential to be), so I thought about trying one on my next playthrough. However, the prospect of playing as a tank fighter who can't wear armor or use shields is strange to say the least.
I had originally intended to do my next playthrough as a dual-wielding fighter, but it would seem more prudent to use one weapon and put 2 points into single weapon style for the extra AC bonus.
Does anyone have any tidbits of wisdom to offer?
Don't excpect power in BG:EE and you gonna be powerful in BG2.
Dual it at lvl 13 to mage and let the magic begin !
Advice I have to offer for (the beginning of) BGEE is simple. Daggers. More precisely Throwing Daggers. I'm telling you, it feels almost too powerful. Unable to use ranged weapons? Naw, even Kai works with them.
I actually have been toying with the idea of playing as a dagger-wielding kensai.
Do you recommend dual wielding them, or placing points in single weapon style instead (for the AC bonus)?
IIRC you can't dual-wield any ranged weapons so dual-wield style is useless, unless you're willing to play the inventory game every time you change weapons. I used SWS on my guy.
ooo ok, now i see, he meant dual wielding throwing daggers, my bad, my lack of atention. There's an bug exception for this with Melf minute meteors and a melee weapon in hand, i don't know how this work however, neither if this issue will be removed in BG2:ee.
@ZanathKariashi: all well and good, but in your entire argument you seem to neglect to consider that your party will want a mage, no matter what (at least one anyway). There is no better mage in the game than a Kensai->Mage, save for fringe setups (like e.g. solo). Nothing stops you from also having a pure Kensai if you so choose, but I do dare you try and beat SCS/T/A on Insane without mages. Someone has to cast those Improved Hastes after all...
And if you chunk everyone in a single round, I'd advise you to up the difficulty. Please let me see your Kensai chunk a Lich with SCS in a single round, or a Golem, or a smart Beholder, all on max HP rolls. For that matter, please let me see your Kensai beat a SCS/T Lich *at all*.
You make it sound as though a great offense and Hardiness let you walk through fire. They don't, primarily because it'll quite literally be fire that kills you, or the plethora of other magical damage that's thrown around everywhere. Physical damage isn't exactly dangerous a lot of the time.
Kensai->Mage being strong isn't a myth. Mages have the tools to avoid every form of damage, and many negative status effects. It is no coincidence mages are the most problematic enemies to defeat, simply because of their amazing defenses. You are right that spell damage is somewhat lacking - that's why you are a dual, not a single class mage or sorceror. Outside of Horrid Wilting on multiple mobs, spell damage just can't compete - but that's not why you go mage. You go mage because you can stand in the way of pretty much *everything* and emerge unharmed, and (arguably more importantly) because you can remove any sort of protection thrown up against you. That last point is *crucial* for SCS/T/A, and as I said before, there is no better mage than a Kensai->Mage.
You are right that a pure Kensai can ramp up the damage to ludicrous amounts. Not ludicrous enough, though, to "just chunk everything in a single round". Not unless the difficulty is so low you could just as well beat the game with a naked lvl 1 druid. And either way: your party slots are limited. Effective parties don't waste roles that could also be compacted; a pure Kensai doesn't fit well, when the alternative Kensai->Mage fills a slot that's pretty much required.
TL;DR: pure Kensais are strong. They deal a *lot* of damage, but not enough to make utility obsolete. Pure Kensais don't bring a lot of utility, if any at all. You need utility in your party, and getting it from class combos is more XP-efficient than adding an extra member.
No...it's not arguable...it's fact that the 13 dual Kensage is worse then a 9 dual plain fighter (though it's very close) or 9 dual berserker (utterly superior in every possible way).
Kensage being at all useful is a myth....one that has repeatedly perpetuated despite being repeatedly proven hundreds of times both on paper AND in practice to be utterly wrong. And is actually even worse the more difficulty mods you add, because they're FLAT OUT INFERIOR to Berserkers and marginally worse then plain fighters
And people CONTINUALLY dismiss damage avoidance. A pure kensai has the highest durability in the game due to all the damage he doesn't take by chunking even friggin' bosses (except for Ravager and Finalbad (or some of the Ascension hardmode bosses) in a single round (often before they can even swing once). (not to mention a respectable 60% DR with hardiness and DoEH (85% vs piercing, if using BoIB), though it's really only needed for Ascension). His only weakness is his speed...once he has boots of speed (and preferably the FoA), he is GOD and it doesn't matter what mods your using. Using a pure kensai is no different then playing a Kensage, aside WAY more damage that isn't reliant on spells (and does more overall damage ANYWAY), you just get your buffs from different sources.
Even Ascension isn't really anymore difficult with SCS or Tactics (mostly due to already being insanely hard, I honestly couldn't see a noticeable difference).
And using a party makes it not worth the downtime, not that it actually matters, since your main character is going to be using the same gear regardless of solo or party.
When it comes to a Kensage, you're losing 90 potential damage per round, even trying to factor in all the damage you could do with spells (which if you abuse resting, every single fight except Ascension should end instantly with CC-Horrid Wilting), a pure kensai is worlds ahead in a gauntlet fight like Ascension, because he continually does that damage. (you also have more Kai charges to throw around for even more damage..
My Kensai deals 390 damage per round (before DR, even after the Ravager's DR it's still 292), under IH or using GWW. 200 without attack rate buffs. As mentioned above, a Kensage deals 90 damage less, and can forever. (Keep in mind, I only rest in inns and only when fatigued...always, no matter the difficulty mods, and no, spell casters aren't needed at all for tactics and SCS.
so tell me what will your kensai do vs lich? damage him while PFMW? no because you need a mages to dispell him and that is why x/mages are better
and i also think kensaias are overrated because berserkers have the same damage with less negatives
What i think is that priest spells in the game are totally nerfed in comparison to arcane spells. The only spell turn/deflect a priest reach is the shield of acorns (lvl 7 spell) and not a single divine spell protection removal. Evidently then that most dual/multi classes of the game finish going to choose mage as the 2° class. Even the NPCs did the same (aerie, nalia, imoen, jan)!
Before BG2:EE comes, i believe something should be done quickly to improve divine spells. I would like if Beamdog start a divine spell domain project while they create new divine spells to be implemented with BG2:EE, making priests more different and versatile.
No....I said Kensage being the strongest F/M-dual is a myth. Only a wizard slayer is worse at it then they are.
Yes....Edwin is the only mage you need, as everyone points out, he does the job much better then you ever could (superior spell capacity) and equipped with Firetooth (dagger) and 19+ str belt is basically a F/M as a single class (boomerang dagger is nice in a pinch prior to Firetooth). And if you really wanna be an ass, cast Blackblade, and a spell trigger with IH, PfMW, Tensers in it...proceed to $%#^ $%#^ up for the next 20 rounds (6 attacks per round for 14-26+str damage per hit, and save at -4 or Disintegrate per hit, with like -8 total thac0).
SCS Liches are just as easy as non-SCS liches...summon a mook via a summon item, and polymorph into a mustard jelly via cloak of the sewers (boots of haste recommended) and just stay out of melee range till all their spells are used up and their 3 PfMW have expired, and then go for the kill (FoA recommended) They die in 2-3 FoA hits, depending on when you fight them.
There are other options. You don't need to be a Kensage, because almost everything they can do can be replaced via a consumable or other item's ability or by having a party. I mean hell, the average person only uses maybe healing potions and/or master thievery potions, while the rest are just money in the bank (and ends up just sitting there staring at you when you realize there's nothing else of value to buy 1/5 of the way through SoA).
I'm pretty sure SCS adds scripted triggers to mages, which essentially makes their spells inexhaustible. Also, they will routinely use Dragon's Breath (ignores MR) and Summon Dark Planetar. A jelly will last about as much as... well, a jelly.
Edwin is an amazing mage to be sure. His damage output also isn't even close to comparable with a Kensai->Mage. APR and "proper" weapons blow him out of the water. You don't actually need that many spells - you need the right ones, and you get those with meta knowledge.
You can't replicate everything with consumables. Apparently it's impossible to finish SCS/Tactics/Ascension without a mage (or bard, or thief with UAI), due to some constraints during the last battle (at least so I'm told). Certainly it makes things disproportionately more difficult, which in turn means you are better off using a mage instead (effectiveness, remember?).
Why would other F/M duals be better? Why would a plain Fighter->Mage be better for example? Kai and inherent damage bonuses add significant output, and being a mage essentially removes all Kensai downsides. Remember that gauntlets are limited, there are like two worth using in the entire game - as long as you can give those to other people, your party doesn't actually lose anything. If you can't, then you do lose a little value, but certainly not enough. Berserkers are largely redundant, because you can protect via your mage/cleric spells if you really need it, and gain comparatively little damage. Armor is irrelevant if you dual to a mage, Vhailor's Helm is under the same diminishing returns as gauntlets, i.e. you can just as well give it to someone else to use. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that certain party setups benefit more from a Berserker->Mage, but they should not constitute the majority.
Again with you two and the kensai->mage argument. He seems to be able to completely ignore the benefit of the mage side of the dual while focusing on the very minor loss of kensai damage and to hit.
Apparently it's impossible to finish SCS/Tactics/Ascension without a mage (or bard, or thief with UAI), due to some constraints during the last battle (at least so I'm told). Certainly it makes things disproportionately more difficult, which in turn means you are better off using a mage instead (effectiveness, remember?).
SCS Liches are just as easy as non-SCS liches...summon a mook via a summon item, and polymorph into a mustard jelly via cloak of the sewers (boots of haste recommended) and just stay out of melee range till all their spells are used up and their 3 PfMW have expired, and then go for the kill (FoA recommended) They die in 2-3 FoA hits, depending on when you fight them.
don't know what scsii version was that by my scsii kills jellys dunno if every lich in the game have a spell trap but if they do you need at least 2x rubyray (the lowest spell that dispells spelltrap) and breach to destroy his spells and he will contingency more pfmw but that could be easily breached now
22STR(18 base +4 from Rage) = +10 damage modifier.
Math is wrong. 18 STR already adds +2, and 22 STR adds +10, so the bonus is +8. Also, no fighter actually has 18 STR due to exceptional STR bonuses, so the bonus is even lower.
Not that it matters, because you are talking about BARBARIAN Rage, which works very differently from BERSERKER Rage, which we were talking about. That one just adds a flat +2 damage/hit, making it rather unimpressive. And that's not even accounting for Kai...
So you are assuming a constant Rage state, ignoring the penalties after Rage, and discounting the use of Kai? Not to mention that, as I mentioned earlier, gloves aren't necessarily "lost" by having a Kensai, since you can simply give them to someone else in the party and retain overall party damage output. The biggest advantage of Berserkers are their immunities during Rage, but with meta-knowledge they actually don't matter nearly as often as you'd think.
When it comes to a Kensage, you're losing 90 potential damage per round, even trying to factor in all the damage you could do with spells (which if you abuse resting, every single fight except Ascension should end instantly with CC-Horrid Wilting), a pure kensai is worlds ahead in a gauntlet fight like Ascension, because he continually does that damage. (you also have more Kai charges to throw around for even more damage..
There is just one problem though... Your Kensai won't deal any of those damage on mages, that are the real problem of those mods. They start with Stoneskin, Mirror Image and/or Protection from Magical Weapons. Good luck soloing that with a pure Kensai.
Already did, must've missed my very first post after mods were brought up. Is it easy? No....Is it easier to use a F/M? Possibly....but only if you're soloing (I actually didn't see much difference to be honest, chugging health potions tends to off-set the damage coming in quite nicely).
FoA beats every single protection except PfMW, which has a very short duration. Arguably, CF is even better since it's stun by-passes all protections and even stops scripted spells, but they might save against it, and you're having to get in your swings between PfWM falling and being reapplied.
Does a Kenage have an easier time? NO, it's pretty much the same experience (and I even had a party for the back-up with the sage, so he wasn't having to waste spells on dispelling), except you trade out some consumables for spells.
And yeah, that scripted BS is the reason I don't play SCS/Tactics anymore (also renders the WS completely useless because scripted spells by-pass spell-failure) (it's not a matter of skill, it's using cheese to beat their cheese, and it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth playing through them, I've beaten the entire game about 5 times with them, twice solo (B/M and Kensai), 3 with a party, and it's not the slightest bit satisfying to me).
I don't use any cheese, and I sure as hell aren't allowing enemies to do so.
Only mod i use these days are Ascension and RRB, and what edits I've been able to figure out to make things more PnP accurate.
A true difficulty mod would nerf the $%#^ out of every overpowered house-rule in the game, and institute as close to PnP as possible.
And yeah, that scripted BS is the reason I don't play SCS/Tactics anymore (also renders the WS completely useless because scripted spells by-pass spell-failure) (it's not a matter of skill, it's using cheese to beat their cheese, and it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth playing through them, I've beaten the entire game about 5 times with them, twice solo (B/M and Kensai), 3 with a party, and it's not the slightest bit satisfying to me).
Sounds like that is the problem in our discussion. Naturally if you can just interrupt everything with FoA and chunk mobs left and right then you don't need the utility of a K->M. You can just go pure Kensai, right-click, and go afk. The flavor of cheese obviously has nothing on the delicious blandness of vanilla.
I don't really know what kind of game he played. In mine, a ADHW on Insane deals 90 damage, 180 if you fail the saving-throw. So you can drink as much potions as you want, it doesn't matter. Plus, most of the time your enemy mage will pop-up both fire shields and, unless your resistances are always on top, they will be able to deal 36 damage together every time you hit the target. Anyway for me there's no more need to discuss abut Kensai vs Kensage, since every char with high mage lvls will obliterate every other class that doesn't. Cya in the next thread xD
Comments
I do realize their are other options, but I think starting the game with 2++ in TWF and 2++ in Quarterstaffs does 1 Monster make.
(And it allows me to save the 1 handed crushing weapons for other people)
Edit: Also high quality magical staves are always easy to find and usually pretty cheap for their enchantment rate.
This, of course, is with BG2/ToB in mind. In BG1 things are very different, as APR isn't nearly as important. The longer reach from a 2h alone could arguably be enough of a reason to choose it, not to mention the incredibly early access to a +3 staff.
Being a mage adds literally nothing to class they actually need. Just pointless frills, at the cost of the one friggin thing a Kensai is actually supposed to have, ridiculous melee damage (a 13 dual kensai has a whopping 2 damage advantage over a 9 dualed Fighter (a berseker is equal while enraged)...and nothing to show for it, and if you use defenses, you need to re-read your class description, your weapon is all the defensive measures you need).
A 13 dualed kensai gets less then 1/3 of the benefit they should have, and since there are items or just getting buffs from party mates that are just as effective as being able to cast a particular spell yourself, there's no reason to ever sacrifice your damage for literally NOTHING.... The instant you dual to a mage, you are no longer a kensai, you are F/M with a ton of extra penalties and no bonuses worth mentioning.
And if you really want to go mad, try a half elf kensai/swashbuckler/conjurer, or kensai/swashbuckler/wild mage for the funnies.
Keep in mind though that these are not gaping differences - in an unmodded vanilla game on core difficulty, it is very likely that the advantages remain almost imperceptibly small. If you however up the difficulty level and get some of the more challenging mods (SCS/Tactics/Ascension), you will quickly notice the value of mage durability and utility. Some argue that a mage is *required* to beat SCS on Insane, and there is no better mage in the game than a Kensai->Mage - and arguably no better fighter, either.
Of course, this is from an objective powergaming perspective. RP-wise, it certainly dilutes the idea of a Kensai (which isn't implemented particularly well to begin with). Though I suppose you could argue that a Kensai->Mage is more of a Kensai with benefits than a Mage with swords, as they will be dealing melee damage 99% of the time and use magic merely for buffing/debuffing. I'll leave the RP concerns for RP people to figure out, but objectively there is no question that a Kensai->Mage is more effective than a pure Kensai.
Kensage being at all useful is a myth....one that has repeatedly perpetuated despite being repeatedly proven hundreds of times both on paper AND in practice to be utterly wrong. And is actually even worse the more difficulty mods you add, because they're FLAT OUT INFERIOR to Berserkers and marginally worse then plain fighters
And people CONTINUALLY dismiss damage avoidance. A pure kensai has the highest durability in the game due to all the damage he doesn't take by chunking even friggin' bosses (except for Ravager and Finalbad (or some of the Ascension hardmode bosses) in a single round (often before they can even swing once). (not to mention a respectable 60% DR with hardiness and DoEH (85% vs piercing, if using BoIB), though it's really only needed for Ascension). His only weakness is his speed...once he has boots of speed (and preferably the FoA), he is GOD and it doesn't matter what mods your using. Using a pure kensai is no different then playing a Kensage, aside WAY more damage that isn't reliant on spells (and does more overall damage ANYWAY), you just get your buffs from different sources.
Even Ascension isn't really anymore difficult with SCS or Tactics (mostly due to already being insanely hard, I honestly couldn't see a noticeable difference).
And using a party makes it not worth the downtime, not that it actually matters, since your main character is going to be using the same gear regardless of solo or party.
When it comes to a Kensage, you're losing 90 potential damage per round, even trying to factor in all the damage you could do with spells (which if you abuse resting, every single fight except Ascension should end instantly with CC-Horrid Wilting), a pure kensai is worlds ahead in a gauntlet fight like Ascension, because he continually does that damage. (you also have more Kai charges to throw around for even more damage..
My Kensai deals 390 damage per round (before DR, even after the Ravager's DR it's still 292), under IH or using GWW. 200 without attack rate buffs. As mentioned above, a Kensage deals 90 damage less, and can forever. (Keep in mind, I only rest in inns and only when fatigued...always, no matter the difficulty mods, and no, spell casters aren't needed at all for tactics and SCS.
Do you recommend dual wielding them, or placing points in single weapon style instead (for the AC bonus)?
Dual it at lvl 13 to mage and let the magic begin
And if you chunk everyone in a single round, I'd advise you to up the difficulty. Please let me see your Kensai chunk a Lich with SCS in a single round, or a Golem, or a smart Beholder, all on max HP rolls. For that matter, please let me see your Kensai beat a SCS/T Lich *at all*.
You make it sound as though a great offense and Hardiness let you walk through fire. They don't, primarily because it'll quite literally be fire that kills you, or the plethora of other magical damage that's thrown around everywhere. Physical damage isn't exactly dangerous a lot of the time.
Kensai->Mage being strong isn't a myth. Mages have the tools to avoid every form of damage, and many negative status effects. It is no coincidence mages are the most problematic enemies to defeat, simply because of their amazing defenses. You are right that spell damage is somewhat lacking - that's why you are a dual, not a single class mage or sorceror. Outside of Horrid Wilting on multiple mobs, spell damage just can't compete - but that's not why you go mage. You go mage because you can stand in the way of pretty much *everything* and emerge unharmed, and (arguably more importantly) because you can remove any sort of protection thrown up against you. That last point is *crucial* for SCS/T/A, and as I said before, there is no better mage than a Kensai->Mage.
You are right that a pure Kensai can ramp up the damage to ludicrous amounts. Not ludicrous enough, though, to "just chunk everything in a single round". Not unless the difficulty is so low you could just as well beat the game with a naked lvl 1 druid. And either way: your party slots are limited. Effective parties don't waste roles that could also be compacted; a pure Kensai doesn't fit well, when the alternative Kensai->Mage fills a slot that's pretty much required.
TL;DR: pure Kensais are strong. They deal a *lot* of damage, but not enough to make utility obsolete. Pure Kensais don't bring a lot of utility, if any at all. You need utility in your party, and getting it from class combos is more XP-efficient than adding an extra member.
and i also think kensaias are overrated because berserkers have the same damage with less negatives
Before BG2:EE comes, i believe something should be done quickly to improve divine spells. I would like if Beamdog start a divine spell domain project while they create new divine spells to be implemented with BG2:EE, making priests more different and versatile.
Yes....Edwin is the only mage you need, as everyone points out, he does the job much better then you ever could (superior spell capacity) and equipped with Firetooth (dagger) and 19+ str belt is basically a F/M as a single class (boomerang dagger is nice in a pinch prior to Firetooth). And if you really wanna be an ass, cast Blackblade, and a spell trigger with IH, PfMW, Tensers in it...proceed to $%#^ $%#^ up for the next 20 rounds (6 attacks per round for 14-26+str damage per hit, and save at -4 or Disintegrate per hit, with like -8 total thac0).
SCS Liches are just as easy as non-SCS liches...summon a mook via a summon item, and polymorph into a mustard jelly via cloak of the sewers (boots of haste recommended) and just stay out of melee range till all their spells are used up and their 3 PfMW have expired, and then go for the kill (FoA recommended) They die in 2-3 FoA hits, depending on when you fight them.
There are other options. You don't need to be a Kensage, because almost everything they can do can be replaced via a consumable or other item's ability or by having a party. I mean hell, the average person only uses maybe healing potions and/or master thievery potions, while the rest are just money in the bank (and ends up just sitting there staring at you when you realize there's nothing else of value to buy 1/5 of the way through SoA).
Edwin is an amazing mage to be sure. His damage output also isn't even close to comparable with a Kensai->Mage. APR and "proper" weapons blow him out of the water. You don't actually need that many spells - you need the right ones, and you get those with meta knowledge.
You can't replicate everything with consumables. Apparently it's impossible to finish SCS/Tactics/Ascension without a mage (or bard, or thief with UAI), due to some constraints during the last battle (at least so I'm told). Certainly it makes things disproportionately more difficult, which in turn means you are better off using a mage instead (effectiveness, remember?).
Why would other F/M duals be better? Why would a plain Fighter->Mage be better for example? Kai and inherent damage bonuses add significant output, and being a mage essentially removes all Kensai downsides. Remember that gauntlets are limited, there are like two worth using in the entire game - as long as you can give those to other people, your party doesn't actually lose anything. If you can't, then you do lose a little value, but certainly not enough. Berserkers are largely redundant, because you can protect via your mage/cleric spells if you really need it, and gain comparatively little damage. Armor is irrelevant if you dual to a mage, Vhailor's Helm is under the same diminishing returns as gauntlets, i.e. you can just as well give it to someone else to use. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that certain party setups benefit more from a Berserker->Mage, but they should not constitute the majority.
That's rather comparable with Kai when wielding a 1d10 katana...
kensai lvl 13 typical level +4 dmg
same damage cavalier did it
don't know what scsii version was that by my scsii kills jellys
dunno if every lich in the game have a spell trap but if they do you need at least 2x rubyray (the lowest spell that dispells spelltrap) and breach to destroy his spells and he will contingency more pfmw but that could be easily breached now
Not that it matters, because you are talking about BARBARIAN Rage, which works very differently from BERSERKER Rage, which we were talking about. That one just adds a flat +2 damage/hit, making it rather unimpressive. And that's not even accounting for Kai... So you are assuming a constant Rage state, ignoring the penalties after Rage, and discounting the use of Kai? Not to mention that, as I mentioned earlier, gloves aren't necessarily "lost" by having a Kensai, since you can simply give them to someone else in the party and retain overall party damage output. The biggest advantage of Berserkers are their immunities during Rage, but with meta-knowledge they actually don't matter nearly as often as you'd think.
There is just one problem though... Your Kensai won't deal any of those damage on mages, that are the real problem of those mods. They start with Stoneskin, Mirror Image and/or Protection from Magical Weapons. Good luck soloing that with a pure Kensai.
FoA beats every single protection except PfMW, which has a very short duration. Arguably, CF is even better since it's stun by-passes all protections and even stops scripted spells, but they might save against it, and you're having to get in your swings between PfWM falling and being reapplied.
Does a Kenage have an easier time? NO, it's pretty much the same experience (and I even had a party for the back-up with the sage, so he wasn't having to waste spells on dispelling), except you trade out some consumables for spells.
And yeah, that scripted BS is the reason I don't play SCS/Tactics anymore (also renders the WS completely useless because scripted spells by-pass spell-failure) (it's not a matter of skill, it's using cheese to beat their cheese, and it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth playing through them, I've beaten the entire game about 5 times with them, twice solo (B/M and Kensai), 3 with a party, and it's not the slightest bit satisfying to me).
I don't use any cheese, and I sure as hell aren't allowing enemies to do so.
Only mod i use these days are Ascension and RRB, and what edits I've been able to figure out to make things more PnP accurate.
A true difficulty mod would nerf the $%#^ out of every overpowered house-rule in the game, and institute as close to PnP as possible.
Plus, most of the time your enemy mage will pop-up both fire shields and, unless your resistances are always on top, they will be able to deal 36 damage together every time you hit the target.
Anyway for me there's no more need to discuss abut Kensai vs Kensage, since every char with high mage lvls will obliterate every other class that doesn't.
Cya in the next thread xD