If you love drawing you probably have skill. If you put your skills and imagination into work producing something, then it's art. It might not be Mona Lisa but why should there only be one "level" of art? Let's call it grassroots art if you want to
Well, I can't really speak for people who love Skyrim, but I can share my own experience of it.
First, Elder Scrolls in general: I played Morrowind all the way through, and was quite immersed in it. I really enjoyed my Nord warrior/healer, and I got really into the lore and the politics of learning all about the Houses and the Empire, and I was fascinated at the astronomy. I could spend fifteen minutes just looking up and studying the night sky. I'm told there was level scaling going on, but I never once became aware of it. However, I never had any interest in replaying it once I had finished it that one time.
Then, came Oblivion. At first, I was excited by a new world to explore. But, very quickly, the abysmal level scaling system ruined the game for me. I realized quite early on that I might as well play the whole game at level one. And, that I had to beware of skills I loved to play with like alchemy, because practicing it would cause my character to level, and thus level every monster in the world, including goblins and rats, while my own combat skill would remain at more or less zero.
Finally, Skyrim. I thought it was rather interesting at first, and I enjoyed exploring the first area in the southeast and the first couple of dungeons. I stuck with it until I got the first "Shoot Roh Da", or whatever that thing is, and my first two dragon battles. And they made me think, "meh." I got really bored and completely lost interest after about 10 or 12 hours of play.
I may give it another go someday, but I'm not really sure when - I've played Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and a few action games like Torchlight and Diablo several times since, and by the time I get done with action games, I'm ready to go back to Baldur's Gate again. I haven't even thought about Skyrim in at least the past year, and only this topic made me think of it again.
Well, for anyone willing to try this game, I highly recommend playing the Thieves' Guild quest, the Dark Brotherhood quest and the Archmage quest. All three I found very interesting and enjoyable. Did you try these quests at least, @ZelgadisGW?
The Dark Brotherhood quests were alright but in general I found the guild kind of quests to be lacking. Particularly the mage and thief quests.
One of the biggest things that killed guild quests in Oblivion or Skyrim, was the lack of skill requirements. In Morrowind you had to actually have a degree of skill in whatever focus the guild had in order to progress, but in oblivion or skyrim you did not. The mage guild ESPECIALLY got on my nerves....guy with less magical power then the most brain dead apprentice get to be Archmage due a series of deus ex machina that anyone else could've just as easily fulfilled?....sounds legit.
Love both game series (witcher and elder scrolls). I put way more time into the elder scrolls games simply because they require it.
Elder Scrolls: + Deeply immersive environment + High attention to detail, very large world, endless exploration possible - Training sucks sooner or later. (A bit better in Skyrim than the previous games). - Game engine balance is a problem (also improved in Skyrim compared to other games).
Witcher: + Pretty good combat system and game engine balance. + Pretty entertaining story line and quests. Dialogues can be hilarious. + Very different than other games of the genre. The Eastern Europeans added a level of realism to what a medieval town would feel like. + No training, leveling is more D&D like. - Smaller world - Fairly linear plot
Just like Oblivion, you could only train 5 skill points per level, and had to grind the rest of the way, where as Morrowind, there was no cap, so if you had the cash and access to the appropriate trainer, you could go all the way 100. Though the expert and master trainers tended to be pretty deep in guild quest lines or just really hard to find (and wouldn't teach you until you'd reached the maximum of the previous level of proficiency). Skyrim continued to make raising skills extremely grindy with no alternatives that Oblivion started.
And the game balance was crap. It was an improvement over Oblivion, but couldn't touch Morrowind, because Morrowind didn't scale enemies at all (and your characters never really became all that powerful anyway unless you REALLY when crazy on buff-stacking which had a high chance of crashing the game), just random loot drops which didn't matter, because the best items weren't random or you made them yourself.
Skyrim did improve the combat system a little, made it a little more fluid. And they made the level-up system a little less confusing (though in Morrowind it didn't matter so much, since it was easy enough to compensate for bad level up choices via gear), but they also F'd it up by removing any variation of characters. All they had to do was remove the random factor out of it by giving a flat 15 points per level up to distribute as the player chose and make it so that you could get the same number of levels no matter what major/minor skills you picked, and it would've been perfect.
They're not even the same type of game, so comparing Elder Scrolls to Witcher is kind of pointless.
I remember having a ridiculously powerful character in Morrowind that could craft just about anything. I seem to remember flying around with super potions. I missed flying in Oblivion, but once I crafted my invisibility suit I was pretty much done. In both games I had super potions for just about anything. To Skyrim's credit, they tried a lot harder to limit exploits.
I'm not sure unlimited training is good for balance, but then I don't really like the whole training concept that much. It really is too much of a grind in the end to be fun.
Right! There's this funny min/max thing you do in Oblivion (Skyrim still has some of this). To maximize the number of points you get to level with you have to train the right skills. You also want to make sure the skills that train faster (tied to your character build) are ones you never use or you level too fast with too few points. What a crazy system... I spent waaaay to much time making sure I was training the right thing at the right time...
I think in Skyrim all skills count towards overall level up. I think that was the case in Oblivion as well, but in Oblivion you had the choice to not level up if you don't sleep.
I generally don't experience the scaling problem in Elder Scrolls games, because I'm not that interested in crafting or alchemy. I usually buff up sneak, one-handed, and archery pretty quickly. The only non-combat skill that I level up fairly quickly is lockpicking.
My problem with Oblivion and Skyrim, is that, in a good game, you shouldn't have to worry about practicing a skill unbalancing the game, and that, a good game shouldn't need any level scaling.
Like I said, I finished Morrowind, thoroughly enjoyed it, and, in fact, this thread is making me consider playing it again sometime soon.
I would never, in a million years, even consider playing Oblivion again. It's that awful, in my opinion.
I still might try Skyrim again at some point in the future, because I think it is at the middle in quality between the awesomeness that is Morrowind and the awfulness that is Oblivion.
But, the fact with Skyrim remains that it was boring enough that I moved on from it to other, older games that I had already played a dozen times each before, for replays, before I had barely even begun to play it.
You can only fight so many of the same humanoids and dragons, and go through so many of the same dungeon designs, and visit so many of the same town designs, and do so many of the same disappointing guild quests that have no rewards or relevance to their actual supposed roleplaying guild charters, before you just start reacting with a total "meh", emotionally, to the whole game.
The day someone make a big mod, converting enemies to fixed levels and stopping level scalling, of course adding some ingame inputs to advice the player where he should be putting his nose at that time and where not, then i will run back to skyrim with a smile in my face and i'm going to replay the game many times.
Until then, i will keep a look at the game and maybe try it one time more with the new DLCs.
By the way, anyone can help me with an game issue? It's off-topic i know, but it's only partially:
My actual Skyrim isn't running proper, in the past in the same PC it worked a marvel, now the game is super slow, with the action appearing to be happening in slow motion and answers for mouse and keyboard commands taking about 1.5 to 3 seconds to be confirmed by the game. The same happened when i tried to play "the witcher 2", any guess why someone?
My PC config:
Core: Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz/2.60GHz Ram: 4GB Video board: GeForce 9400 GT (last update) System: windows 7 - 64mb.
it allows me to create and develop my own character(my favourate rpg component) and explore and play around in a large and pretty landmass as i see fit be it as an rp experiance or just as a bit of fun. i dislike how shallow the game can be at times though and also that magic is broken late game
why witchers good:
it creates a rich world and story with compelling characters. although being forced into geralts role can be frustrating at times amd it also annoyed me sometimes by preventing me from making the choices i wanted to make and ignnoring certain choices in whitcher 1
both games good to me but for entirely differant reasons although neither has a particularly compelling combat system
The witcher is good because it's an ironic game, try to be a goody two shoes and you end the game fucking everything (with the pardon for the word). Things aren't black and white, neither they are previsive always.
@kamuizin, do you have the latest updates for Skyrim? Although if it's happening with Witcher 2 as well, it might be your comp. Try dling something like Advanced SystemCare and running it, cleaning registry, HD, useless files, startup programs and so on.
You need more ram (assuming 4gb is your current max). Damn the box requirements (2gb is a flat out lie), that blasted thing needs a full 4gb dedicated just to itself to run worth a crap (and preferably a full 1gb free for OS... though 8gb total would be preferable), and it's due to patched content, rather then dlc/mod content, so there's no real way around it.
(As bloated as that game has become they REALLY should've released it as a 64-bit program, or developed a 64-bit version. 32-bit is relic that is holding games back...it's fine for less intensive games, but it just can't handle large scale sandboxes or heavy simulations (I would use Sims 3 as an example as well, but being 64-bit wouldn't help since that games issues are due to %^$& programming/routing)).
@Majoca The fun part is, that I am using different approach to different games. My mistake was treating Skyrim like an rpg, instead of sandbox game. You know (I might sound like old geezer), but back in my days good story (as well as interesting characters) was considered integral part of good rpg
I'm not sure how much of an old geezer you are. What do you mean by back in your day? Are you talking about Baldur's Gate and other story intensive RPGs that came about around the same time? Gold Box AD&D? Wasteland? Ultima? Deadlands? Wizardry? How about TES: Arena?
It's not like story focused RPGs were The Thing That Came Before. Back in your day - be it Tuesday or whatever - I guarantee there were a variety of RPGs with different themes and playstyles.
Thx for the tips @Imperator and @ZanathKariashi, gonna separate some money for this future investment (or gonna buy a new PC, dunno yet). I use CClean by the way atm, and i run it each 2 or 3 days, dunno if it's functions are the same as the Advanced System Care.
CCleaner is good, use it myself as well. ASC also has other functions which I use to complement. Plus it has a free version available.
Something worth mentioning is that the larger the save file in Skyrim (i.e. the longer you've played), the more it eats memory, due to every item you've ever dropped locations being written into it. IIRC this was the reason why PS3 didn't handle Skyrim so well. My first char 180+ hours are really starting to slow the game.
As for mods, I wouldn't recommend them for first playthrough, except maybe for some inventory mod, which doesn't change game mechanics. Myself I use only cosmetic mods, such as new weapons and armors, cloaks, a font change and better textures. I should get around to installing a better UI mod, but it just seems like such a hassle.
And to contradict myself, I do have one content increasing mod, Falskaar. And a couple of hours in, it seems quite good. A bit buggy, a bit empty, but on the other hand Skyrim does feel a bit crowded from time to time.
Comments
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/20196/are-the-videogames-art?new=1
First, Elder Scrolls in general: I played Morrowind all the way through, and was quite immersed in it. I really enjoyed my Nord warrior/healer, and I got really into the lore and the politics of learning all about the Houses and the Empire, and I was fascinated at the astronomy. I could spend fifteen minutes just looking up and studying the night sky. I'm told there was level scaling going on, but I never once became aware of it. However, I never had any interest in replaying it once I had finished it that one time.
Then, came Oblivion. At first, I was excited by a new world to explore. But, very quickly, the abysmal level scaling system ruined the game for me. I realized quite early on that I might as well play the whole game at level one. And, that I had to beware of skills I loved to play with like alchemy, because practicing it would cause my character to level, and thus level every monster in the world, including goblins and rats, while my own combat skill would remain at more or less zero.
Finally, Skyrim. I thought it was rather interesting at first, and I enjoyed exploring the first area in the southeast and the first couple of dungeons. I stuck with it until I got the first "Shoot Roh Da", or whatever that thing is, and my first two dragon battles. And they made me think, "meh." I got really bored and completely lost interest after about 10 or 12 hours of play.
I may give it another go someday, but I'm not really sure when - I've played Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and a few action games like Torchlight and Diablo several times since, and by the time I get done with action games, I'm ready to go back to Baldur's Gate again. I haven't even thought about Skyrim in at least the past year, and only this topic made me think of it again.
I keep trying to write something but I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, so in summary:
-I love Skyrim.
-I found it extremely immersive and simply enjoy spending time in the game, sneaking about, travelling from place to place.
-I don't use the map to fast travel, it breaks the immersion completely.
-I find people who compare games in the way you describe in the OP to be annoying, perhaps they haven't been playing games for very long.
Elder Scrolls:
+ Deeply immersive environment
+ High attention to detail, very large world, endless exploration possible
- Training sucks sooner or later. (A bit better in Skyrim than the previous games).
- Game engine balance is a problem (also improved in Skyrim compared to other games).
Witcher:
+ Pretty good combat system and game engine balance.
+ Pretty entertaining story line and quests. Dialogues can be hilarious.
+ Very different than other games of the genre. The Eastern Europeans added a level of realism to what a medieval town would feel like.
+ No training, leveling is more D&D like.
- Smaller world
- Fairly linear plot
Just like Oblivion, you could only train 5 skill points per level, and had to grind the rest of the way, where as Morrowind, there was no cap, so if you had the cash and access to the appropriate trainer, you could go all the way 100. Though the expert and master trainers tended to be pretty deep in guild quest lines or just really hard to find (and wouldn't teach you until you'd reached the maximum of the previous level of proficiency). Skyrim continued to make raising skills extremely grindy with no alternatives that Oblivion started.
And the game balance was crap. It was an improvement over Oblivion, but couldn't touch Morrowind, because Morrowind didn't scale enemies at all (and your characters never really became all that powerful anyway unless you REALLY when crazy on buff-stacking which had a high chance of crashing the game), just random loot drops which didn't matter, because the best items weren't random or you made them yourself.
Skyrim did improve the combat system a little, made it a little more fluid. And they made the level-up system a little less confusing (though in Morrowind it didn't matter so much, since it was easy enough to compensate for bad level up choices via gear), but they also F'd it up by removing any variation of characters. All they had to do was remove the random factor out of it by giving a flat 15 points per level up to distribute as the player chose and make it so that you could get the same number of levels no matter what major/minor skills you picked, and it would've been perfect.
They're not even the same type of game, so comparing Elder Scrolls to Witcher is kind of pointless.
Sandbox vs traditional story driven rpg.
I'm not sure unlimited training is good for balance, but then I don't really like the whole training concept that much. It really is too much of a grind in the end to be fun.
Don't sleep, be neurotic, be cool
Like I said, I finished Morrowind, thoroughly enjoyed it, and, in fact, this thread is making me consider playing it again sometime soon.
I would never, in a million years, even consider playing Oblivion again. It's that awful, in my opinion.
I still might try Skyrim again at some point in the future, because I think it is at the middle in quality between the awesomeness that is Morrowind and the awfulness that is Oblivion.
But, the fact with Skyrim remains that it was boring enough that I moved on from it to other, older games that I had already played a dozen times each before, for replays, before I had barely even begun to play it.
You can only fight so many of the same humanoids and dragons, and go through so many of the same dungeon designs, and visit so many of the same town designs, and do so many of the same disappointing guild quests that have no rewards or relevance to their actual supposed roleplaying guild charters, before you just start reacting with a total "meh", emotionally, to the whole game.
Skyrim I might, if only because I have all the DLC's.
But honestly these games get pretty boring after a while.
Until then, i will keep a look at the game and maybe try it one time more with the new DLCs.
By the way, anyone can help me with an game issue? It's off-topic i know, but it's only partially:
My actual Skyrim isn't running proper, in the past in the same PC it worked a marvel, now the game is super slow, with the action appearing to be happening in slow motion and answers for mouse and keyboard commands taking about 1.5 to 3 seconds to be confirmed by the game. The same happened when i tried to play "the witcher 2", any guess why someone?
My PC config:
Core: Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5300 @ 2.60GHz/2.60GHz
Ram: 4GB
Video board: GeForce 9400 GT (last update)
System: windows 7 - 64mb.
it allows me to create and develop my own character(my favourate rpg component) and explore and play around in a large and pretty landmass as i see fit be it as an rp experiance or just as a bit of fun. i dislike how shallow the game can be at times though and also that magic is broken late game
why witchers good:
it creates a rich world and story with compelling characters. although being forced into geralts role can be frustrating at times amd it also annoyed me sometimes by preventing me from making the choices i wanted to make and ignnoring certain choices in whitcher 1
both games good to me but for entirely differant reasons although neither has a particularly compelling combat system
You need more ram (assuming 4gb is your current max). Damn the box requirements (2gb is a flat out lie), that blasted thing needs a full 4gb dedicated just to itself to run worth a crap (and preferably a full 1gb free for OS... though 8gb total would be preferable), and it's due to patched content, rather then dlc/mod content, so there's no real way around it.
(As bloated as that game has become they REALLY should've released it as a 64-bit program, or developed a 64-bit version. 32-bit is relic that is holding games back...it's fine for less intensive games, but it just can't handle large scale sandboxes or heavy simulations (I would use Sims 3 as an example as well, but being 64-bit wouldn't help since that games issues are due to %^$& programming/routing)).
It's not like story focused RPGs were The Thing That Came Before. Back in your day - be it Tuesday or whatever - I guarantee there were a variety of RPGs with different themes and playstyles.
Something worth mentioning is that the larger the save file in Skyrim (i.e. the longer you've played), the more it eats memory, due to every item you've ever dropped locations being written into it. IIRC this was the reason why PS3 didn't handle Skyrim so well. My first char 180+ hours are really starting to slow the game.
As for mods, I wouldn't recommend them for first playthrough, except maybe for some inventory mod, which doesn't change game mechanics. Myself I use only cosmetic mods, such as new weapons and armors, cloaks, a font change and better textures. I should get around to installing a better UI mod, but it just seems like such a hassle.
And to contradict myself, I do have one content increasing mod, Falskaar. And a couple of hours in, it seems quite good. A bit buggy, a bit empty, but on the other hand Skyrim does feel a bit crowded from time to time.