Nerf Negative Plane protection

ZanathKariashi

Remove passive Negative plane protection from all items or class abilities that grant it, and nerf the spell to only block a single attack (similar to stoneskin, but only loses it's charge when it blocks a level drain attack)


Level drain is supposed to be one of the most dangerous effects in the game, but due to the plethora of means to render it powerless, it's little more then an annoyance, and only when it happens to affect a spell-caster.

(Nerfing Protection from Undead (from the scrolls) to be removed on any hostile action (akin to Sanctuary) would also be a very nice and long overdue change)


While I also wouldn't mind seeing restoration nerfed in someway to better represent the gravity of the situation (permanently reducing the target's Con by 1 every time they're restored, or at least have them make a system-shock roll (based on Con) to avoid the Con loss on every restoration, to try and represent the loss of life-span from the targets life the spell is supposed to have (Remove greater restoration from the game entirely)).


I might agree to having passive NPP replaced by a 1/day use of the Nerfed version of the spell, but flatout passive immunity is just too powerful.


(I've already modded my own game by simply removing passive negative plane protection from everything, though I lack the knowledge to change the NPP and Restoration the way I would prefer (though I do SK a characters Con lower by 1 though every time they get a restoration spell cast on them) and beaten the game several times through with a variety of classes, so it does not in any way make the game impossible (Solo though is MUCH harder...as it should be), though it does make some fights actually threatening, rather then just "Oh look vampires..better move the caster's back", it's more like "Vampires! #%@^!!!!"...and that's just how it should be)


(Blackguards and Undead Huners are already OVER-compensated, and wouldn't in the slightest suffer from the lack of Immunity to level drain)

I could go into why, but that would be a HUGE post. Suffice to say, it's not needed and they're still MUCH better off then they should be even without it.

God

Agreed. Let mortals be more mortal so that there is more room for immortals!
However, characters unwilling to sacrifice anything of themselves for their recovery could likely just use them silly priests of Ilmater; why suffer when you can have a bunch of willing Ilmaterans suffer for you?

ZanathKariashi

If they nerf'ed restoration as well, it would also nerf the Npc priest version.

Dee

This would dramatically alter the difficulty rating of a significant portion of the game.

That said, I'm sure you could make these changes into a mod.

Tresset

As if the spell wasn't already bad enough as is! 5 rounds is pathetic!

karnor00

The problem is that there's too much level drain in the game. No sensible DM would put a party up against a lair of vampires (vampires are traditionally rare and fairly solitary creatures in D&D lore) unless it were an epic level adventure (i.e. maybe okay in ToB but far too much for SoA levels). Not to mention all the wights roaming around.

So, given that there's so much level drain in the game, the players need a reasonable way to protect themselves from it.

BaldursCat

karnor00 said:

The problem is that there's too much level drain in the game. No sensible DM would put a party up against a lair of vampires (vampires are traditionally rare and fairly solitary creatures in D&D lore) unless it were an epic level adventure (i.e. maybe okay in ToB but far too much for SoA levels). Not to mention all the wights roaming around.

So, given that there's so much level drain in the game, the players need a reasonable way to protect themselves from it.

This. Seriously, *some* of us have enough trouble playing this game as it is without adding the extra difficulty of removing protections you don't always have in place to start with because you run into vamps in the street. Keep it for a mod.

elminster

I'm all in favour of level drain working as it currently does (with you losing any spells and having to reselect them) because I think vampires should actually be menacing creatures. However, since bodhi's lair is a required area to enter in the game I don't think they should do anything with the level drain spells (including making negative plane protection longer).

ZanathKariashi

And if they'd just done it in the first place, no one would be complaining. I've done extensive, no-cheese testing with all my usual restrictions, and it's just not that a big of a deal.

Yes the vampire fights are tougher (unless you have 18+ level cleric who chunks them all instantly with turning or a MoD wielding warrior who 1-shots them before they can hit you), though on the other hand, it also rewards players who've learned to properly use the magic system and develop good adventuring practices, such as scouting ahead and effectively using traps.


And IMO, is better then the current implementation where just having 1 item or class with immunity to level drain instantly renders the vampire lair missions a boring, non-threatening waste of time you're forced to go through because it's plot required because without level-drain, vampires are literally harmless (aside from Bodhi (Hardcore melee powerhouse) and Tanova (higher level mage...who doesn't even attempt melee until she's out of spells)).



You only run into potentially hostile Vampires in the street twice...and both times they're optional as to whether you fight them or not (and I've always easily beaten them regardless, since their requirement for +2 weapons is actually MUCH more annoying early on then level drain is, since if you're a noob, you likely won't know where some quick access to level 2 weapons are. Where as in the early game, unless you're an UD Hunter, you probably won't even have passive immunity to level drain making it largely moot, especially if you rest a lot since that speeds up the rate you get the nightly encounters.

My first time through BG SOA (before ToB came out), the amulet of power was the only immunity to level drain item I had (and I completely missed the MoD) (and didn't even know about NPP the spell, so it didn't get used at all), and it was on a character who never even came close to the action, so in effect, I already did this way back when.

BaldursCat

Genuinely, how? In my BGII games, and admittedly I've not actually played right through any because I'm such a terrible restarter, I've run into vamps on EVERY playthrough and many were random ones I engaged because a. I didn't realise and b. they egaged me first - This playthrough is the first time I've actually run across named vamps in the street as part of the quest and thankfully I'd done a quick save prior to walking out into the street so I could reload and rest and avoid them because there's no way you can beat them without protections and the right spells or weapons equipped. I'm sorry but if you're finding this game too easy it's not the devs issue, you have to think of the casual gamer, who are the ones who are going to keep investment in the title going. You're clearly a D&D player of longstanding, so you know how these things work but you have to remember that not everyone who plays this game has your experience or knowledge. If you're finding it easy, add the mods. FWIW The latest 4ed novel I read that featured a Vamp guild relied on the one of mage heroes having a globe that offered protections to get the party out of the predicament they found themselves in; no negative plane protections or priest equipped with the right spell or weapon so how can a gamer possibly be expected to beat them. Leave it as it is I say and give use plebs directing the Bhaalspawn around a fighting chance.

EDIT: Seriously, despite being a longstanding internet geek - yeah I remember the IE/Netscape browser wars, I was always a Netscape girl, I even wrote a paper on them - Still consider myself a gamer N00b, and no matter how old this game is I never, ever got cheesing, cheesing is for those of you who know how this stuff works to start with, I'm going to stand here and be the one who says "What the heck? I don't know what you mean? If I even knew who to cheese this I wouldn't know where to start."

SpaceInvader

I must say I totally agree on the Protection from Undead scroll cheeseness.
It should work like a Sanctuary but against undead.

TheGreatKhan

I'll agree with the protection from undead scrolls being nerfed a bit. They do make liches and what have you rather pathetic.

I'm going to disagree with negative plane protection though. I can tolerate it being something more like a stoneskin but not something that gets dispelled after one shot.

The restoration part though I'm firmly in disagreement with. Losing one constitution for each cast on someone. You will get level drained A LOT in this game even with the protections. I don't need most of my party having 3 constitution.

bbear

This should be left as a mod for experience players. Beginners will get extremely frustrated and rage quit the game.

ZanathKariashi

Beginners wouldn't even notice, unless they've read a guide, at which point they're no longer beginners. As mentioned prior, I went through SOA, pre-ToB with only a single immunity item, that never got used for it's level drain immunity. Yes, my first few encounters with vampires ended badly, but it was because none of my weapons could hurt them and arguably, I was still a newb at the time who had yet to realize that direct damage spells are worthless and should NEVER be memorized (aside from 8th/9th level).

Unless you screw up VERY badly, you should only have to restore a character MAYBE 4 times in the whole series, and if you cycle the characters around you could spread out the Con-loss, and there's 2 effective points of Con you can gain through play (4 total if evil) that can negate that loss mostly, or completely.


The only reason it seems like a major nerf is because you've gotten complacent with how things are. Even in the 2 vampire lair missions, it's just not a big deal. Hell, the only enemy in the game that legitimately warrants concern is the friggin' shadow dragon of all things, because it's level-drain breath hits a large area, but would be easily kill-able using the nerfed NPP as your only source of immunity.

Pecca

Zanath, I think it's pointless to argue after what Dee said. Anyway, from what I can see, it shouldn't be very hard to make a mod (with NPP items having temporary uses per day, not the stoneskin-like effect). I could make it if you're interested.

Hoot

Zanath, I disagree about the direct damage spells. I've killed Dragons with Magic Missile :P Also Melf's Minute Meteors is a great spell.

Heindrich

Hey, since you brought my attention to this thread, I shall offer my thoughts on the topic.

As others have pointed out. As it is, BG is not a particularly easy or even beginner friendly game. Your own experience is heavily distorted by the fact that you are a D&D veteran and a BG veteran. I am all for interesting challenges and 'realism' (I guess Level-drain has something to do with draining life force in D&D lore), but the game needs to be playable for a beginner without reading a walkthrough or a massive manual, or requiring experience in D&D PnP. Otherwise you never give a beginner the time to get immersed.

If I were to comment on the state of the vanilla game difficulty, and what I'd like to change, it's that the difficulty seems very 'spiky' for a beginner. There are some things which are just very tricky if you don't have metagame knowledge. For example like knowing to buy Shield of Balduran vs Beholders and how to kill a Clay Golem. I don't mind having to learn things like immunities and spells as I go along, but it would be helpful if the game offered some hints along the way. Like maybe one of the NPCs could have said, 'Oh no! That's a Clay Golem, we're gonna need a magical blunt weapon to hurt it!' the first time I came across one. The changes you are proposing will make Vampires another one of those 'difficulty spikes' that can be frustrating for a noobie. Remember also that the game cannot just be for powergamers with optimised stats. I don't want to be compelled to roll 18/18/18 for every character just to stand a chance of getting to the end relatively intact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for the game to be nerfed to the extent any child can romp through mindlessly. In fact I don't mind if the 'general difficulty' was increased a little, I just don't like 'spikey difficulty'. All it achieves is create extra hoops that beginners will need to learn to jump through, whereas veterans will hardly notice the difference precisely cos they already know what to do.

For example whilst I disagree with ur proposal for Level Drain, I'd actually quite like to see companion deaths having more of a consequence than it does currently. Because 'raising the dead' is so easy in BG, it totally devalues the impact of death, unless it is permanent. I feel there needs to be a middle ground between 'oh damn I lost a bit of gold' death and 'shit Aerie is gone forever, I need to reload' death. The obvious solution to me is that whenever somebody is raised from the dead, there is a chance (say 50%) of permanent loss of 1 random physical ability point. That way death will have serious consequences, but won't force a reload each time.

ZanathKariashi

Technically raise dead and resurrection, in addition to costing a MINIMUM of 5000g per spell (8000 for Ress), if you cast it yourself, or a lot more if an npc does it for you, you're supposed to have to roll a survival check based on Con or the rez fails and the character can never be brought back. And no matter which spell you use, they always lose 1 Con permanently per rez, so the more they die, the weaker they get and the more likely they are to fail their survival roll, or even if they're super lucky, they'll eventually run out of Con score. Also raise dead isn't supposed to work on Elves or characters killed by death effect spells (Turned to stone and shattered, Disintegrated, Death Spell, instant-death from Cloudkill, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Death Gaze, etc) or turned into Undead (level/stat drained to death by an Undead, death gaze, reanimated by animate dead, etc). Resurrection on the other hand can, and should even be able to resurrect chunked characters as long as you save some small piece of their body or pinch of dust from their body.



No more frustrating then Beholders are in general. The shield of balduran for a long time was a pre-order exclusive, until they finally added it to the core game in a patch after ToB, or people realized you just need to get your hands on the over-ride files that added the specialty merchants (it was more of a concern back when BG2 came out, cause the internet was still really young). (Joluv was a collectors edition exclusive for instance). You still had options, the cloak of mirroring could reflect rays, but was really easy to miss, even if you did go to the Saguhin city, rather then taking the portal. Which left you with spell turning, which beholders could remove just by using their Main eye (strips all magical buffs instantly and gives a 100% spell failure penalty for 10 rounds).



The only reason it seems overpowered is because you're used to the nerfed version. Had you never experienced the nerfed version of level drain, it would be no big deal, and you would adapt just like you did to the nerf'd version. My first playthrough I only had a single item to prevent level drain, and it was on a character who never got level drained to begin with. The fact vampires in general need +2 weapons to hit was the real thing that ever gave me trouble as a noob. Even the change to restoration wouldn't be that big of a deal honestly. Though they do need to add lesser restoration, which only clears stat damage, rather then level drain and stat damage, but doesn't have a real penalty. It just fatigues the target for 24 hours instead of knocking several years off your lifespan like restoration does.

blackchimes

You should give aVENGER over at aTweaks forums a hola. He already reworked Fiends pretty extensively, so he might be willing to do Vampires as well.

elminster

Heindrich1988 said:

If I were to comment on the state of the vanilla game difficulty, and what I'd like to change, it's that the difficulty seems very 'spiky' for a beginner. There are some things which are just very tricky if you don't have metagame knowledge. For example like knowing to buy Shield of Balduran vs Beholders and how to kill a Clay Golem. I don't mind having to learn things like immunities and spells as I go along, but it would be helpful if the game offered some hints along the way. Like maybe one of the NPCs could have said, 'Oh no! That's a Clay Golem, we're gonna need a magical blunt weapon to hurt it!' the first time I came across one.

The manual (BG2 and presumably BG2EE), something that you can very easily browse through, mentions that Beholders are very dangerous and that clay golems in particular can only be damaged by enchanted blunt weapons. Both enemies are listed in the index at the back of the manual in BG2's case, so I hardly see how you have to scurry through pages and pages of the manual to find it. Also a good chunk of BGEE/BG2EE is experimenting with spells. If anything given that a lot of spells have been fixed, along with their descriptions both in-game and in the manual, I'd say its a lot easier for beginners today than when I started playing the game. The manual even tells you what to use to protect yourself from level drain caused by Vampires. It doesn't tell you everything, but frankly it shouldn't. Some things (good and bad) are better left for people to discover on their own.