Nerf Fighter/Druid (And some suggestions for improving/tweaking druids in general)
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
Bring Fighter/Druid duals/multi's closer to PnP by implementing ALL druid restrictions for the combination. Druid restrictions are a result of their druidic vows, not lack of training, and simply having fighter levels does not allow them to magically use any gear they please, it just gives them access to a few perks they normally wouldn't get, like extra attacks, specialization/expertise, better thac0/hp, and the ability to not suck at dual-wielding which druids normally can't do due to lack of training (druids are only supposed to have access to single, two-handed, and S/S styles). Druids that violate their vows are supposed to lose all spell-casting and supernatural benefits immediately and for 24 hours after they've stopped violating their vows.
Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
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I didn't even know that.
This is quite possibly the easiest and simplest request I have ever made thus far.
Of course, I could just as readily argue that it's a pretty dumb ideology (skinning poor defenseless animals is okay, but using ore pulled from the heart of the earth to protect myself? never! that stuff is only for weapons), but I suppose that's neither here nor there.
Also, the F/D has been used as an example to resist changes to improving the Druid class in general or it's kits...why bother when a F/D is superior in every way to every kit? Fixing the F/D combo is just a small step in a Druid overhaul to give the class a much needed shot in arm, by trying to get implemented a lot of the extra benefits and utility druids are supposed to have, but isn't in BG.
And it's not a nerf...it's a correction...much like fixing that mess with the R/C spell-casting would be.
(The R/C broken casting has also been used to resist having the R/D implemented, despite it being a perfectly valid dual and multiclass combo in 2nd ED FR (Mielikki and Meliel both allow druids to be NG, TN, and CN, instead of just TN, and allow NG rangers to dual-class to druids if they wish (they also get 1 extra weapon type of their choice that they can wield without violation (cannot be changed after creation), but they have still to pay the proficiency for it as normal, it's not free), where as by the core books only a NG Half-elf can be a R/D).
There are several leather armors with equal or higher benefit to ankheg (and other benefits on top of AC) in BG2, including the ability to craft suits of Ankheg mail. I'm pretty sure the white dragon scale armor is also considered leather (along with the Shadow scale, 1 AC)) and is a -2 AC armor if memory serves, Aegir's Hide is 3 ac and gives immunity to confusion and a small amount of fire/acid/cold resistance). Only the blue dragon and Red dragon armors are unusable by druids because they're mostly normal plate that has just had dragonscales layered on top.
And as has been covered, in BG2, AC isn't that big of a deal. 3+ ac armor is all you need to filter out mook hits...truly dangerous enemies are going to hit you no matter what armor you're wearing, unless you're pushing the AC cap (which only a handful of classes can do and is not in anyway worth the effort of doing).
Yeah, after that last post I starting thinking about what druid armor is available and when in the game AC is important. BG1 obviously, but druids can use ankheg plate, so no big deal. I suppose it might be a problem in the early game if you don't know about the hidden suit, though. Early-mid BG2 AC's still important, and there isn't a ton of good leather available early BG2 if you don't know exactly where to look. Late game a ton of good leather shows up, but as you note, AC matters by that point anyway. I suppose one could argue that the availability of good armor coincides nicely with the druid xp curve (very fast through early BG2, very slow late BG2 into TOB), but I'm also inclined to think that the druid xp curve is insane, so I'm not sure how I feel about encouraging it.
Regardless, I'd be totally happy with an F/D armor restriction if druids got a buff. That seems like a fair trade, which should leave F/Ds at or slightly above their current power (depending on the strength of the buff) and make single-classed druids actually worth something.
Also buffing the druid shapeshifts by adding some utility to them, like letting the wolf form move faster (same as barbarian) and give a chance to slow (or more accurately trip) on hit, the bear form a chance to stun with save (sets base thac0 equal to a figher's of the same level), and replace the black bear with a panther form that can stealth (99% stealth) and ambush (gets a +15 bonus to damage on their first attack when attacking from stealth) with 4 apr, but only deals 1d3+1 damage per hit with a chance to cause bleeding), giant spider form (1d2+1 damage with 5 attacks and poisons on hit unless they save. Can cast a special non-magical web (by-passes MR and spell protections, but not effects like free-action or web immunity) once per transformation). Also giving the shapeshifts a bonus of 10 hp per 3 levels of druid.
The wolf form would be very support heavy, moving in quickly and applying a speed debuff and zipping away, or attacking lightly armored targets quickly. Bear form would have a strong melee presence. Panther form could scout as well as make a powerful opening shot, and hopefully bleed the target potentially interrupting spell-casting. And the spider would be a nice crowd control form while being able to stack some poison on several targets.
And add the imbue with magic spell (3rd level, allows natural attacks of the target creature to strike as if +1 per 3 levels (max of +5), lasts 1 hour). This would allow their summoned animals to actually hit stuff or they could buff themselves to allow their forms to damage enemies with hit-requirements...or cast it on a monk to allow them to by-pass hit restrictions before they're able naturally (DOES NOT APPLY TO HIT or DAMAGE, it only allows them to by-pass hit-requirements). (this spell alone would massively increase the usefulness of shapeshifters...though I'd also rather see a PnP accurate shapeshifter, shown below.)
Other changes -
Totemic Druid - Choose 1 spirit animal as a totem at creation. Charm spells gain a -4 save penalty vs that type of animal. And natural animals of that type will never attack the totemic druid or their party unless deliberately provoked. (Spirit beasts choices are the same type as normal shapeshifts).
lvl 7: Gains the ability to shape shift into their chosen spirit animal x3 per day for 10 rounds. Spirit beasts are immune to non-magical weapons and have 100% cold resistance and 50% magic resistance. They attack as a normal creature of their type, but gain an innate to-hit bonus equal to +1 per 4 levels with regard to what they can strike and deal a bonus +2 cold damage per hit no matter their form.
Penalty - Cannot change their beast-totem, so they're stuck with just the one form, instead of having several to choose from, and the spirit form has a MUCH shorter duration then normal shapeshifting.
Avenger -
Gains access to several new spells. (same as current)
Penalty: Cannot shapeshift at all
Shapeshifter -
Gains shapeshifting at lvl 1 and can do so once per day. Gains additional daily uses per level up to 6th, for a total of 6 per day.
7: Gains the option to instead of fully shifting, the shapeshifter only partially transforms their body, giving them the base AC, stats, and attacks of their chosen form, but retaining the ability to speak, use consumables, and cast most spells. Counts against their daily usage of shapeshifting. Unlike Normal shapeshifting, this version only lasts for 10 rounds.
Penalty - Cannot wear any armor, including bracers or bucklers.
As you can see, this would MASSIVELY overhaul the druid dynamic. Making it more a genuine choice of what you want to play, since even the plain druid isn't out-classed by it's kits, they just each bring a different flavor of the same thing. A modified F/D would gain a bit better melee presence when not shifted and apply the7/13 warrior bonus attacks to the forms giving them up to 1 extra attack, but would have to contend with the ridiculous downtime of getting druid lvl 14, or sacrifice GM and taking a kit by going with a multiclass.
That said, the totem druid's totem choice could be difficult to implement. Might be able to do it by splitting it into multiple kits (bear totem druid, wolf totem druid, etc), but that'd be clunky. Still, I kind of like it.
Unfortunately, it probably won't be done. The simple truth is that the things your suggesting would be a dramatic change to the kits (especially totem druid), and I suspect Beamdog isn't looking (or able?) to change existing content to that extent. Still, the base druid stuff doesn't sound entirely outside the realm of possibility.
Yeah...most of this is just wishful thinking....
Yeah...most of this is just wishful thinking.... The totemic is PnP accurate, the Shapeshifter is 90% PnP accuate (their real penalty would just be hard to implement, so just taking their armor options and forcing them to rely on their shapeshift forms is a nice compromise), and the avenger is completely made up (the PnP version just gets a bonus weapon proficiency point to spend at creation, and has a reaction penalty when interacting with non-druids, balanced...but...very bland...).
That said, the current Avenger penalties, aren't (even the str is easily replaced), and they not only get a huge buff to spell casting over a base druid, several of their forms are actually pretty useful, which is just too powerful. Especially if the base forms are boosted, stripping their shapeshifting entirely is a must.
One thing I really hate about the current BG is that it breaks the main rule of kits...they should NEVER be superior to the vanilla class or grossly weaker. They should have the same overall level of power, but in a different flavor favoring a different style of play.
And this is pretty much what you're doing. You want nerfs first and maybe buffs later. You also want pnp accuracy in a game that is not pnp. You said it yourself that druids have many utility skills that are very useful in pnp, but can't be used in this game. So, while they don't have that increase utility you also want to nerf (fix) their powers. While is fun to play a druid and I played one a couple of times (the shapeshifter) it's also one of the weakest classes in the game.
You should try to make these classes useful and fun more than trying to get them to be like in pnp (which we're not even doing, you're only taking their power and give them nothing of the utility they are suposed to have).
You're nitpicking the druid while the fighter/mage rolls over everything. I just quitted my first run as a fighter mage becuase it was too easy. (and I'm not saying to nerf this one to, some people might like it, or play with mods that make the game harder so than it's ok).
What I want is actually fun, fun to play every class.
P.s. In this game the equivelent of the speeding driver is the cleric-ranger which everyone likes, because druids are just to weak and they get everything a druid has and more. Build "highways" and they'll reconsider.
In 1ED, the only restrictions for multi class character are those based on thief abilities i.e. you can't use thief abilities in non thief armor/weapons. Otherwise the multi class character gets all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. So cleric multiclasses can use edged weapons and mage multiclasses can cast spells in armor.
Not relevant to BG2 I know, but I thought it interesting nonetheless.
Fun is very subjective..I don't find BG fun at all....when I look at it, I see nothing but disappointment and contradiction. It has a great story but the classes are $%#^ed.
The reason I started on the Druid and the Bard, is because they are $%#^ as implemented, and everyone knows it so both are universally reviled for being worthless compared to the broken/shoddily implemented favorites.
And rest assured.....if mages/sorcerers, R/C, and Berserkers weren't the most hotly defended aspects to change in BG, I'd be more then happy to lay into them with the a nail-studded nerf-bat (Various ideas for nerfing all of it is floating around if you search for my posts). But every change is countered with, oh, but now clerics will be grossly better (nope I just haven't gotten to them yet), or now DRUIDS will be better (nope, they're also on the to-do list), but now fighters are even more OP (For the a moment, just wait till you what I got cooking), but now thieves are too strong (patience grass-hopper), etc etc.
My main objective right now is adding or tweak missing or crapply implemented abilities, as well as tweaking the kits so that they are not better then the Vanilla class (which is a HUGE no-no where kits are concerned, and is currently one of the biggest issues BG fails miserably at), just a slightly different playstyle while having roughly the same level of power, by trying to make sure that for every bonus over the base class they get, they get an approximately equal penalty.
Which means the likely hood of these changes being applied is higher then getting R/C spell-casting fixed, despite that being stupidly easy to do and MUCH less work then this would require (the F/D change would take like 4 minutes, the rest would take much longer).
But....it would be a start. Which is the important thing. Change has to start somewhere, and it should really start at the point of least resistance.
If you didn't see this as a huge net buff to druids, you are blind or don't know $%#^ about this game.
Druids have no purpose at all in this game as implemented. Everything they do, a cleric can do better, with fewer restrictions, better spells, and do so with easier to roll stats and ultimately levels MUCH quicker once BG2 starts, and is hardly stated to be hindered in BG1, due to the fact Druid spell casting is absolute garbage in BG1 where as clerics get a ton of OP stuff. Their shapeshifting is useless 4 levels before you get access to it as implemented.
Tweaking the forms to add some utility features and a spell to make them useful vs hit-requirement creatures is a HUGE buff...especially since all the animal forms get multiple attacks, which a base druid cannot. Even in PnP, druid spell casting is lack luster, and not at all useful for direct combat...they're more suited for avoiding or by-passing it, but their forms add benefits that the druid by their stat page wouldn't be readily apparent.
F/D are already well compensated for what bonuses they get from fighter levels, without needing to break the druid equipment restrictions. They can wear ankheg plate in BG1, which is close to one of the best armors, rendering that point moot, and in BG2 there's plenty of leather options just as good as plate.
All they're really losing is helms (which as mentioned over in my helm request, they should either remove the crit protection from helms entirely, or add helms for each armor class, so every class but mages can get access to head-gear, which helms or cap are assumed to be part of any suit of armor and shields, which they should be dual-wielding anyway so that's a non-issue as well.)
When I start posting a spell overhaul, it's doing ALL of them at once, complete with making sure that spells have appropriate penalties to prevent the ridiculous abuses that currently go on.
Would you spam Wish if it reduced your Con permanently by 1 every cast (in lue of an age mechanic)?
Would you use IA if all it did was reduce spell cast times up to 9th level by 6 for 4 rounds, to a minimum of 1, and didn't mess with the 1 spell per round limit? (and had lesser Alacrity (4th :-2, 3rd and lower) and Alacrity (7th: -4, 6th and lower))
Would you touch CC in combat if it took 1 turn (not round...TURN) to cast? Would you be in such a hurry to dismiss bardic lore (which only true bard and Skald get if properly implemented) if Identify cost 500g per item to attempt, 10% chance of success per caster level (max of 90%) and reduced Con by 8 for 24 hours? When YOU cast the spell? How about 1200 gold per attempt to get a Mage (and only a mage) NPC to do it for you, with a 10% chance of failure (assuming lvl 9+)? Or glasses of identify that only have a single use per day and only a 50% success rate and still reduce Con by 8 for 24 hours (but don't cost any money at least to use).
It's not all nerfs though. There's several spell schools that are getting the shaft with regard to choices...especially illusion (especially once Mislead and Project Image are fixed). And of course digging through the books to help prop up the lower level druid spells since they don't get hardly anything worth a crap till 4+.
But what you want is a massive overhaul that I don't think it should be done on parts.
And about highways... they did like 300km in 20 years
1. They are legally not allowed to modify the game in a noticeable way.
2. These changes might make the game too hard for someone new to 2E.
3. Most people who bought BG:EE want to play BG as they remember it, not something else.
Granted, 1 is kind of hazy and 2 and 3 could be sidestepped by making it all optional, but still. You should be taking these ideas to the modding forums.
(Or just make a mod yourself. I never modded Infinity Engine but from my understanding it's all scripting, and scripting languages are very easy to understand and edit)
(Well with some exceptions like STALKER)
The most complicated thing I've done so far....it probably tweaks to the hammer of thunder bolts and Crom-Faeyr to make them a little closer to PnP.
Tagged the HoT as a 2hder (2d4 hammers are mauls, not warhammers (1d4)), and added a ranged mode that sets apr to 1 and gives it a lightning bolt projectile effect that deals 2d4+3 +1 electrical damage on impact.
(giving it the proper benefits while wearing GoOP and BoGS is beyond me, but since Crom is just a permanently awakened HoT, I could at least give it the proper abilities)
Tagged Crom as a 2hder (is also a 2d4 hammer), and added a ranged mode that sets apr to 1 and gives a lighting bolt projectile effect that deals 2d4+5 and causes a non-magical 1d10 lightning strike (using the call lightning projectile effect) to the target as well as a 10ft radius centered on the target to save vs spell or be stunned (1 round) and deafened (until dispelled), in addition to the normal on-hit benefits. Now sets str to 24, and removed the hidden +5 electrical damage (replaced by the lightning strike).
Also, ZK, I don't know what version of the 2E PHB you're working from, but in mine Identify only costs 100 gold and lasts 1 round/level, during which time you can attempt to identify as many items as you want (although you only get one attempt per item, and if you fail you have to wait until you go up a level to try again). Of course, it also takes 8 hours to cast, so that could be a tad inconvenient.
To respond to the rest of your post...in other words, we should fix what is nearly a 15 year old game for someone who doesn't even like it because they disagree with mechanics that others have found hours upon hours of entertainment in? Isn't that like altering football/futbol rules because a fan thinks the game should be more like baseball? 0_o Anyone who plays BG expecting PnP gameplay or vice versa would be in for a huge shock, as the gameplay between the two is completely different. In my limited experience with PnP, druids and bards are tailored to be utility classes, not combat ones.
I'm not saying your wrong that the game favors some classes over others, but at this point people have developed strategies and tactics for getting through the game despite various disadvantages. IMO though, classes in single players are SUPPOSED to be unbalanced, its what makes playing every class uniquely challenging. I don't disagree with the idea that druids are really unbalanced, I even agree with you...but for me, its that imbalance which makes the game fun. If I felt like a God on every playthrough the game would get rather stale and not have the replay factor it currently does. Then again, this is coming from someone who enjoys playing games at a handicap, so feel free to take the entire post with a grain of salt. Point is, this whole thread boils down to a difference of opinion on "what makes a game fun" which for a lot of us seems to be deliberate imbalance. I may be wrong on this, but if being "balanced" is what made this game fun...I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to hit level 30. At that level class is more or less irrelevant anyways.