Making backstab more viable late game

cbarchuk

I'm a big thief fan and I always play thieves of some sort in the Baldur's Gate series. My biggest complaint is the gradual uselessness of backstab as the game progresses. By late BG2 and in most of ToB backstab ceases to work since all opponents, that are worthy to be backstabbed, are immune. I know this makes since with many enemies like slimes and such and if you could backstab bosses the fight would be much easier. I just wonder if there is a way to keep backstab viable against almost all opponents, including bosses, without upsetting the balance.

KhalDragon

It is safe to say that you never saw a kensai/thief in action.

cbarchuk

I've only run an assassin and multi-class fighter/thief. I've never had the patience to babysit a kensai/thief. Besides I'm strictly talking backstab itself. But I have heard a lot of great things about the kensai/thief for sure.

Kore

Yeah I found that my assassin and his "assassination" ability sadly lacking. Quite disappointing really since I was looking forward to it. I ended up shadowkeepering him into a swash in the end.

smeagolheart

I've been running a kensai thief in my latest game. After I'd dualled to Thief but hadn't yet gotten my kensai back for some reason I found I couldn't wear any armor still. Not sure if that is how it is for everyone but that's what happened to my guy. My AC was around 1 with weapon style and dex bonuses and some gear (rings), that was enough for the character to be viable in combat. As long as the main tank took the aggro, my thief could come and backstab from behind and after that even if some of the enemies are able to take a couple shots at him, he'd be okay to either take a couple hits or survive long enough to hide behind the tank. As long as the kentheif isn't the main one being attacked it worked fine, I'd have him hide in the shadows and provide support and it's been actually very viable. I just got my kensai back in spellhold but haven't played around with it much yet since.

Playing BG1 with a kensai is pretty tough you definitely don't want to lead the fight with a kensai. Barkskin really helps and I took single weapon style twice for the AC bonuses.

cbarchuk

Yeah I found that my assassin and his "assassination" ability sadly lacking. Quite disappointing really since I was looking forward to it. I ended up shadowkeepering him into a swash in the end.

I definitely agree with you. Assassins are my favorite class but sadly they're pretty weak considering they almost completely rely on backstab which becomes almost useless the further into the game you go. Seems to me the devs didn't give this a lot of thought cause there really isn't any reason to take an assassin over some variant of a fighter/thief. Even a bounty hunter is better in my opinion.

KhalDragon

The point about kensai/thief is that it does massime amont of dmg. I never played with an assassin, but if u put a katana on him and use single weapon specialization, I think he should do fine through the entire game.

cbarchuk

In regards to the assassin, he shouldn't become useless by late game. The amount of backstab-immune opponents goes through the roof. I should be able to backstab bosses. Not granted that might make the game broken so maybe make the boss have damage reduction similar to skeletons. I dunno, just an idea. I just don't like that a classes main weapon becomes useless therefore making the class useless.

Zakeros

Why not change a bit Assassin class kit? If the backstabbing isn't viable late game maybe it should develop with the character. For example, on level XX adding some additional damage / putting slow or short-lasting sleep on target / poisoning target / etc, etc. Many existing kits have abilities that are changing when character reaches desired level.

trinit

i also love thieves very much (assassins especially) and also find the lacking in later gameplay.
something about hiding in shadows and mystery surrounding the class really does it for me (similar like monks or sorcerers).

@cbarchuk- you made an excellent proposition in the "[Classes\Kits Request] Tweak Assassin Kit" thread. i agree that assassins, and assassins only, should be able to backstab immune opponents for half damage or something like that (maybe even apply some effect instead of damage). it would really make playing the class worthwhile (as assassin is very crippled with thieving points and progresses slowly) and put forth the specialisation of the class- backstabbing, making it a viable choice for long term gameplay plans.

cbarchuk

Yea I really like the idea too. It would really make the assassin unique. I know in NWN2 there was a feat you eventually pick up called epic precision that allowed sneak attacks to work against opponents that were normally immune. I think giving the assassin something along these lines would really be pretty cool. As you pointed out, the assassin is gimped as a thief and his main weapon eventually becomes useless. I think this one little change would help out tremendously in making the kit a focused backstabber as it was meant to be. If allowing a X7 multiplier is too much to be allowed against all opponents then lower it back to X5 or cut the damage in half against those immune opponents.

technophobe

If they can improve the enemy builds and AI, they might not need to use as many cheesy immunities on bosses to make the battles challenging.

Spartacus

If allowing a X7 multiplier is too much to be allowed against all opponents then lower it back to X5 or cut the damage in half against those immune opponents.

I think this is a great idea, and a great way to make the thief viable a little later. I absolutely loved playing my Assassin in my last playthrough of BG2 - dealing 70 damage on a backstab to an enemy mage and watching them explode was so satisfying. Anymore, however, he hasn't been quite as useful, sadly.

I also think that including the updates already present in Sword Coast Strategems would go a long way towards balancing encounters even without making so many bosses immune to backstab. Great idea!

sarevok57

what about the assasain's posion ability? is it also useless at those higher levels? ( i prefer level 7 fighters dual classed into a thief or swashbucklers, so havent had much assasain experience)

cbarchuk

I tend to think of the poison ability as supplementary but you're right for sure. It's pretty useless at high levels as well. Honestly I can't understand how they playtested this kit and decided its good to go and on par with the other classes.

cbarchuk

But...let me add this. Poison is devastating against mages assuming you can get through their defenses. So it's not completely awful. I would be happy with it being as it is if backstab was buffed a bit.

trinit

yes, poison also works on arrows, and if you manage to poison the mage, the poison will do relatively quick damage over time. every time mage takes damage, hurt animation is played thus disrupting his spells constantly, making him incapacitated for a time.

smeagolheart

yes, poison also works on arrows, and if you manage to poison the mage, the poison will do relatively quick damage over time. every time mage takes damage, hurt animation is played thus disrupting his spells constantly, making him incapacitated for a time.

It's better at disabling and slaying wizards than a wizard slayer's abilities.

Majoca

When the Enhanced edition comes out I was thinking completing the game as a thief, I really like the thief class but I always end up gnome illisuionist/thief, I like spells too much, does anyone one have a recomendation on how playing a thief can be awesome?

smeagolheart

When the Enhanced edition comes out I was thinking completing the game as a thief, I really like the thief class but I always end up gnome illisuionist/thief, I like spells too much, does anyone one have a recomendation on how playing a thief can be awesome?

Kensai theif, cleric/thief. I think bounty hunter would be cool what with the thrown traps and all

sarevok57

@cbarchuk maybe in SoA they play tested the poison ability and everything was all good in the hood, and in ToB they just assumed it was still going to be all good in the hood mayhaps?

caruga

My take on it is that backstabbing was OP but they went the lazy, heavy-handed 'nerf' route in slapping no-backstab flags on monsters.

I don't know if the following suggestions alone will keep backstab in line but I think they're good for starters, toward the goal of eventually removing said flag:


-nerf
Backstabbing without a dagger/shortsword should be impossible, period.

-nerf
If you are dual-wielding, both weapons must be dagger or shortsword. No "crom feyr + cutthroat" or w/e.

+buff
Remove the excessively applied no-backstab flags on bosses.

-optional nerf
cap the damage bonus used in the rolling in some fashion (e.g., no strength bonus above strength 20).

-optional nerf
If class abilities that affect damage are enabled (e.g. kensai kai) backstab is unavailable. You backstab, then turn on kai.
Alternative: subtract 1d(opponents' die/2) from the normally max-rolled damage.

Will try to think of more of these.

Anton

-nerf
Backstabbing without a dagger/shortsword should be impossible, period.

-nerf
If you are dual-wielding, both weapons must be dagger or shortsword. No "crom feyr + cutthroat" or w/e.

These 2 definitely should be implemented.

cbarchuk

Caruga,

Excellent suggestions and I completely agree with all of them. Don't really have much to add. You hit it spot on. Bravo!

scriver

-nerf
Backstabbing without a dagger/shortsword should be impossible, period.

Personally, I'd like to add bows/crossbows/throwed weapons to that list as well. I'm not sure how balanced it would be, but ambushijg someone with a bolt from the shadows is just awesome.

sarevok57

@scriver i think that would also make the assinantion ability a lit bit more usefull, i remember the first time i used it, i had an assasain hasted using a bow, thinking, okay i should get 5 attacks or so in those 2 rounds, and nothing happened, ah good times with wasted abilities

Winthal

-nerf
Backstabbing without a dagger/shortsword should be impossible, period.

Personally, I'd like to add bows/crossbows/throwed weapons to that list as well. I'm not sure how balanced it would be, but ambushijg someone with a bolt from the shadows is just awesome.

Perhaps if ranged stealth attacks did maybe 50% of the melee backstabs? I already see huge problems with Staff of the Magi on a 2:nd weapon slot together with a bow tho --> invisible + shoot, invisible + shoot, over and over and over with just a few clicks (it's already OP in melee, but at range it would be far, far worse...)

caruga

Will try to think of more of these.

And now I have:

Instead of removing the 'no backstab' flag outright, make it operate differently, so that it either
a) stops the monster being backstabbed more than once.
b) downscales damage on each subsequent backstab it receives by 50%.

SterlingArcher

c) -x to backstab multiplier against creature

cbarchuk

These are great ideas guys. I'm still digging the idea of making the assassin the only thief class that can bypass the 'no backstab' flag. This would really highlight this kit a lot more making it stand out. Either way these ideas are great.

Caruga, IWD1 had the option where you could enable 3rd sneak attack. This option only allowed you to sneak attack any given monster once. At that point you had to switch to another monster if you wanted to sneak attack. So option A could work. I like option B the most though. Reduce the backstab damage somewhat. But you have to be careful. The reduction can't be so much that setting up the backstab becomes a waste of time.

caruga

But you have to be careful. The reduction can't be so much that setting up the backstab becomes a waste of time.

I disagree. I think the whole 'niche' of a backstabbing rogue is to deal a heavy clout to the enemy but then be forced to engage in mediocre melee combat. I don't think continual backstabbing should be the staple of battle. At higher levels you get to 1HK weaker enemies, but should you fail the weaker melee that follows should offset the extra damage you got to begin with.