I'm cool with either being implemented. After a rogue backstabs, they still have to go find some shadows around a corner somewhere to re-enter stealth. Of course, they could just chug a potion of invisibility or use mislead. At any rate consecutive backstabs is what a rogue uses at lower levels. Hit and run tactics. But if you can only backstab the target once then it seems to me that would have to apply to every monster in the game. I personally think, against bosses, that the damage should just get a flat reduction for every backstab.
In the end, as long as something is done, I'll be happy.
I would also add the wakisashis and ninja-to to the list of backstab allowed weapons for those who prefer the oriental weapon style.
I don't know if it is the *7 damage that was too strong or the completely imbalanced combo it did with the assassinate skill in ToB, so another balancing option would be to : - reduce the damage from assassinate (half damage ?), it doesn't fit the thieves sneaky playstyle anyway. - remove the backstab imunity from enemies (except barbarians that have a specific ability for that) - keep everything else the same.
That being said the weapon restriction is apealing to me because having a thief backstab with a Hammer (Crom fayr) is just not realistic.
As a sidenote, Yoshimo's starting katana should become a wakisashi or ninja-to to fit the restriction.
Mmmmm. Not sure. I'm definitely in favor of weapon restrictions for backstab. These should include dagger and short sword for sure. Anything else...maybe. You bringing up the assassinate ability reminds of how worthless that HLA is in the hands of single class thief. If removing backstab-immune opponents isn't an option make assassinate an ability that allows the thief to bypass the immunity for that single backstab. That would be cool. As it stands now, its only useful for a fighter/thief that has higher APR and THACO. Either way its still not every sneaky. Overall I'm cool with any of the options that have been stated already. My only point is the thief has to be viable throughout the game without having to always resort to traps. BG1 is a prime example. I'm pretty sure backstab works against every opponent in the game. BG2 and ToB shouldn't be any different especially since the thief is bascially a god at that point. You would think he would be a master of backstab at level 40.
I wanted to just quickly list some of the ideas mentioned thus far to improve backstab. They are as follows:
1. Make the assassin the only class that can actually backstab opponents that would normally be immune.
2. Put tighter weapon restrictions for backstab. Example: Only being able to use dagger and short sword.
3. Change the HLA assassinate ability so that it allows the thief to bypass backstab immunity for that one backstab.
4. Remove the 'backstab seems to have failed' flag on all opponents including bosses but have it that those opponents reduce the amount of backstab damage similar to undead.
5. Have that you can only backstab a boss once.
6. Have that you can backstab a boss more than once but each subsequent backstab does less and less damage.
7. If dual wielding you can only use short swords and daggers.
8. Allow ranged weapons to backstab but at reduced damage.
9. To further justify removing the backstab failed flag, disallow certain class abilites to stack with backstab such as the kensai's KAI ability for example. Idea here is to nerf backstab somewhat in exchange for it being useable against ALL opponents.
I think I listed all of them here. If I missed one, let me know. You could also use any combination of these ideas. At any rate, I would be happy with any of them.
I think so many of us decided to be thieves having seen Arkanis Gath in action (particularly when he is invulnerable and chasing you for breaking the Shadow Thieves quest!)... why couldn't we backstab like him, whyyyyyy?
he actually isnt invulnerable @Kate_wise , he is just wearing a belt that makes it so if he goes down to 1 hp or less he cant die, but he can miss you, usually i kill renal bloodscalp for his boots of speed so i can have 6 altogether in ToB and i just give the killer the vorpal sword and once renal dies quickly steal stuff and give the killer all the AC items i can, usually making him around -20 or so ac, and give him the girdle of piercing and mr gath can miss with like 16s and such and then you run like stink from the docks district and NEVER return ( so make sure you finish absolutely everything in the docks before you do that or else mr gath will be wainting for ye to eat your flesh or some such)
I think so many of us decided to be thieves having seen Arkanis Gath in action (particularly when he is invulnerable and chasing you for breaking the Shadow Thieves quest!)... why couldn't we backstab like him, whyyyyyy?
Back in the days I was in the old BioWare forums, a guy once made a perfect backstab, 1000+ damage, with the Assassin > Cleric class. Kind of cheesy, but it's definitely doable I guess! :P There should be a screenshot lying around somewhere, but I wouldn't post it without his permission.
Just posting to add agreement with the gist of the thread, backstab-immune late-game bosses is a bit of a lazy way to go. Totally agree on assassins retaining a backstab damage bonus on immune enemies or implementing a HLA that bypasses immunity.
i declare shenanigans on that 1000+ damage backstab only because im pretty sure the maximum amount of damage you can deal is 150 on a normal hit and 300 on a critical hit, i used shadow keeper to give a character the kensai's + to damage ability, and i copy pasted hundreds and hundreds, and the game never let me do more than 150 on a normal hit, unless for some reason backstab isnt capped to that 150 on a normal hit
No, it was legit. But getting that high involves stacking bonuses there is probably a religious commandment against stacking (not that I remember what it was he stacked).
well he could have put the mits of weapon specialization in each slot i shappose, i just did some rough calculations and i can only come up with 476 damage on a critical hit with a x7 backstab, i wonder if he used control +Y ( i think that is the damage one) and made it look like it was a big backstab?
well he could have put the mits of weapon specialization in each slot i shappose, i just did some rough calculations and i can only come up with 476 damage on a critical hit with a x7 backstab, i wonder if he used control +Y ( i think that is the damage one) and made it look like it was a big backstab?
The guy that did it could as well law suite me for this, but oh well, here's your proof
Notice the bards and the golem shape, as well as tenser transformation used and a ridiculous amount of buffs. My suspect is that the guy also set the difficulty on the hardest one, so any damage done to party members is doubled
Oh and no, he didn't technically cheat. Whatever that guy did in the game was 100% legit, I can say that quite easily
minus the fact he has over 30 tensers transformations , and yeah you do double damage to your team mates on the hardest, i wonder if you could backstab with black blade of disaster, i bet i could probally do more if you could use that
Just so you know, mods already offer you most of what you guys are wishing for.
1. Make the assassin the only class that can actually backstab opponents that would normally be immune.
2. Put tighter weapon restrictions for backstab. Example: Only being able to use dagger and short sword.
...
7. If dual wielding you can only use short swords and daggers.
8. Allow ranged weapons to backstab but at reduced damage.
1. Rogue Rebalancing grants Assassins a Death Attack. Assassin's poison ability should be the "go to" option for enemies immune to backstabs (and I'll point to it for the upcoming Kit Revisions).
2. Item Revisions already does this. Light weapons such as daggers and short swords have the best backstab multiplier, heavier and less suited weapons such as long swords or katanas suffer a small penalty, while unappropriate weapons such as staffs or maces suffer heavy penalty.
7. Within Item Revisions dual wielding light weapons (short swords and daggers) grants you a better thac0, while wielding heavy weapons (bastard swords, maces, etc.) makes the character suffer a penalty. "Medium" weapons (e.g. long sword) works as per vanilla.
8. We recently added this option too within Item Revisions. Ranged backstabs are allowed, but the backstab multiplier always suffer a penalty for not being in melee. Depending on the weapon used the penalty may be a small -1x or higher.
I think I listed all of them here. If I missed one, let me know.
I think you got them all, except for one I suggested earlier: that bonuses from non-rogue classes should not stack with backstab perhaps by disabling backstabbing, e.g. kensai 'kai' ability will disable backstabbing. The general thrust of my suggestions was to give enough nerf suggestions to justify removing the no-backstab flag (as well as that some are thematically sound, such as limiting the weapons usable in back-stabbery), though I'd settle for a reduced effect of said flag as well.
Yea I'm pretty sure my level 40 assassin can figure out to sneak up on those pesky bosses!
Just so you know, mods already offer you most of what you guys are wishing for.
1. Make the assassin the only class that can actually backstab opponents that would normally be immune.
2. Put tighter weapon restrictions for backstab. Example: Only being able to use dagger and short sword.
...
7. If dual wielding you can only use short swords and daggers.
8. Allow ranged weapons to backstab but at reduced damage.
1. Rogue Rebalancing grants Assassins a Death Attack. Assassin's poison ability should be the "go to" option for enemies immune to backstabs (and I'll point to it for the upcoming Kit Revisions).
2. Item Revisions already does this. Light weapons such as daggers and short swords have the best backstab multiplier, heavier and less suited weapons such as long swords or katanas suffer a small penalty, while unappropriate weapons such as staffs or maces suffer heavy penalty.
7. Within Item Revisions dual wielding light weapons (short swords and daggers) grants you a better thac0, while wielding heavy weapons (bastard swords, maces, etc.) makes the character suffer a penalty. "Medium" weapons (e.g. long sword) works as per vanilla.
8. We recently added this option too within Item Revisions. Ranged backstabs are allowed, but the backstab multiplier always suffer a penalty for not being in melee. Depending on the weapon used the penalty may be a small -1x or higher.
Thanks for the feedback Demi!
Yea I use RR mod already myself and it is a fantastic mod. Death attack is great and does work against a few selected enemies that are immune to backstab. Of course the enemy still has to fail its save in order to be killed. Nevertheless, even death attack stops working against many opponents as you progress through the game especially in ToB. So I do like it but unfortunately there are many monsters that are immune to automatic death such as Demogorgan, most dragons, and just about all boss-type monsters in ToB to name a few.
Now I've never used Item Revisions. I may have to look into that. I appreciate the heads up about it. Regardless, I just want the ' backstab failed ' flag to be removed completely.
I think I listed all of them here. If I missed one, let me know.
I think you got them all, except for one I suggested earlier: that bonuses from non-rogue classes should not stack with backstab perhaps by disabling backstabbing, e.g. kensai 'kai' ability will disable backstabbing. The general thrust of my suggestions was to give enough nerf suggestions to justify removing the no-backstab flag (as well as that some are thematically sound, such as limiting the weapons usable in back-stabbery), though I'd settle for a reduced effect of said flag as well.
Ah I knew I missed one. Thanks for the reminder Caruga!
Comments
In the end, as long as something is done, I'll be happy.
I don't know if it is the *7 damage that was too strong or the completely imbalanced combo it did with the assassinate skill in ToB, so another balancing option would be to :
- reduce the damage from assassinate (half damage ?), it doesn't fit the thieves sneaky playstyle anyway.
- remove the backstab imunity from enemies (except barbarians that have a specific ability for that)
- keep everything else the same.
That being said the weapon restriction is apealing to me because having a thief backstab with a Hammer (Crom fayr) is just not realistic.
As a sidenote, Yoshimo's starting katana should become a wakisashi or ninja-to to fit the restriction.
1. Make the assassin the only class that can actually backstab opponents that would normally be immune.
2. Put tighter weapon restrictions for backstab. Example: Only being able to use dagger and short sword.
3. Change the HLA assassinate ability so that it allows the thief to bypass backstab immunity for that one backstab.
4. Remove the 'backstab seems to have failed' flag on all opponents including bosses but have it that those opponents reduce the amount of backstab damage similar to undead.
5. Have that you can only backstab a boss once.
6. Have that you can backstab a boss more than once but each subsequent backstab does less and less damage.
7. If dual wielding you can only use short swords and daggers.
8. Allow ranged weapons to backstab but at reduced damage.
9. To further justify removing the backstab failed flag, disallow certain class abilites to stack with backstab such as the kensai's KAI ability for example. Idea here is to nerf backstab somewhat in exchange for it being useable against ALL opponents.
I think I listed all of them here. If I missed one, let me know. You could also use any combination of these ideas. At any rate, I would be happy with any of them.
There should be a screenshot lying around somewhere, but I wouldn't post it without his permission.
Notice the bards and the golem shape, as well as tenser transformation used and a ridiculous amount of buffs. My suspect is that the guy also set the difficulty on the hardest one, so any damage done to party members is doubled
Oh and no, he didn't technically cheat. Whatever that guy did in the game was 100% legit, I can say that quite easily
2. Item Revisions already does this. Light weapons such as daggers and short swords have the best backstab multiplier, heavier and less suited weapons such as long swords or katanas suffer a small penalty, while unappropriate weapons such as staffs or maces suffer heavy penalty.
7. Within Item Revisions dual wielding light weapons (short swords and daggers) grants you a better thac0, while wielding heavy weapons (bastard swords, maces, etc.) makes the character suffer a penalty. "Medium" weapons (e.g. long sword) works as per vanilla.
8. We recently added this option too within Item Revisions. Ranged backstabs are allowed, but the backstab multiplier always suffer a penalty for not being in melee. Depending on the weapon used the penalty may be a small -1x or higher.
Yea I use RR mod already myself and it is a fantastic mod. Death attack is great and does work against a few selected enemies that are immune to backstab. Of course the enemy still has to fail its save in order to be killed. Nevertheless, even death attack stops working against many opponents as you progress through the game especially in ToB. So I do like it but unfortunately there are many monsters that are immune to automatic death such as Demogorgan, most dragons, and just about all boss-type monsters in ToB to name a few.
Now I've never used Item Revisions. I may have to look into that. I appreciate the heads up about it. Regardless, I just want the ' backstab failed ' flag to be removed completely.
EDIT: Added. Thanks again!