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Some HLA questions

For Bards (esp. Blades), Use Any Item looks essential. Beyond that, what's good to get? Spike Trap looks good, but highly situational. Enhanced Bard Song also looks good (although I normally prefer to use my Blade to attack). Alchemy, Magic Flute, and Scribe Scrolls look useless. I'd appreciate any advice on what to choose (specifically for a Blade).

For Warriors, Greater Whirlwind Attack looks superior to the other HLAs, though Critical Strike and Smite also look good. Is my impression correct?

Also, can Greater Whirlwind (and Whirlwind) be used with missile weapons? And since it sets attacks/round at 10, does this mean that warriors with 2 weapons lose their additional attacks (i.e., a character may as well use a shield or 2-handed weapon)?

For Clerics, is Summon (Fallen) Deva better or worse than Elemental Summoning? It seems clearly better, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Thanks in advance! :)
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Comments

  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292

    For Bards (esp. Blades), Use Any Item looks essential. Beyond that, what's good to get? Spike Trap looks good, but highly situational. Enhanced Bard Song also looks good (although I normally prefer to use my Blade to attack). Alchemy, Magic Flute, and Scribe Scrolls look useless. I'd appreciate any advice on what to choose (specifically for a Blade).

    For Warriors, Greater Whirlwind Attack looks superior to the other HLAs, though Critical Strike and Smite also look good. Is my impression correct?

    Also, can Greater Whirlwind (and Whirlwind) be used with missile weapons? And since it sets attacks/round at 10, does this mean that warriors with 2 weapons lose their additional attacks (i.e., a character may as well use a shield or 2-handed weapon)?

    For Clerics, is Summon (Fallen) Deva better or worse than Elemental Summoning? It seems clearly better, but perhaps I'm missing something.

    Thanks in advance! :)

    You can use bard song and attack at the same time by using an image spell like mislead. Have the image sing while you do whatever it is that you want to do.

    Also, the reason to get elemental summoning is that you can only have one celestial summon out at a time. So if you have a planetar out, you can't summon a deva until either the duration on the planetar runs out or it's killed.
    Thrasymachus[Deleted User]
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345


    For Warriors, Greater Whirlwind Attack looks superior to the other HLAs, though Critical Strike and Smite also look good. Is my impression correct?

    Also, can Greater Whirlwind (and Whirlwind) be used with missile weapons? And since it sets attacks/round at 10, does this mean that warriors with 2 weapons lose their additional attacks (i.e., a character may as well use a shield or 2-handed weapon)?

    Yes, yes and yes.

    For Clerics, is Summon (Fallen) Deva better or worse than Elemental Summoning? It seems clearly better, but perhaps I'm missing something.

    If you're playing vanilla it tends to be better. With some mods (e.g. Spell Revisions), elementals get upgraded a lot and then elemental summoning isn't bad at all.

    Thrasymachus
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    the whirlwinds do indeed work on missile weapons, even slings :)
    Thrasymachus
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    (Greater) Whirlwind does set attacks to 10 (that goes for every weapon out there), but you have to bear in mind that a fighter with Improved Haste cast upon him is much more effective, due to the latter's longer duration.

    That means, that with insufficient mage support around Greater Whirlwind is a good deal. But if you have enough mages in your party, Improved Haste is the better option.

    Spike Trap is cheese trap, 'nough said. Time Trap is a poor man's Time Stop, and their only regenerating ability to access it.
    Thrasymachus
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Spike trap is awesome. Lay a few, scout ahead with a stealthed thief, backstab, and run back to your party standing behind the traps.
    Thrasymachuselminster
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 873
    Thanks for the replies so far!

    For Warriors, then, perhaps Smite when Hasted, and Greater Whirlwind for other times is a sensible strategy?

    I have to confess that I'm a bit lazy and frequently find myself in fights without being 'prepped' for them. Hence the appeal of something like Greater Whirlwind, which I can simply activate when necessary, and does not depend on my mages casting spells ahead of time. (Also, I only have one mage -- Imoen -- and one blade, so my party's a bit thin magic-wise.)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited August 2013
    Spike Trap is one of the most powerful skills in the game, unless you curb its power with mods. The damage goes through almost anything, no questions asked, and you can stack multiple traps in one spot - ideally one you know an enemy is going to cross (or spawn at...).

    Greater Whirlwind Attack is good, but as someone mentioned it is more effective to go for high native APR and use Improved Haste (= doubles APR) instead. With that you can have dual-wielding fighters at 10 APR for considerable amounts of time, and don't waste a turn action activating GWW either. Improved Haste is hands down the best spell in the entire game; there is no shame in loading up your lvl6-slots with it, and using it gratuitously.

    Critical Strike is very powerful. Several enemies (e.g. most bosses) are immune to critical strikes however, so keep that in mind. Still, even against them this skill is far from useless: while you don't get the bonus damage from a natural 20 roll, it does make the attack an automatic hit, regardless of AC/THAC0. That can be a substantial advantage against highly armored opponents, especially when combined with the high APR/Improved Haste combo mentioned above.

    Hardiness should also be mentioned, as it is the next powerful HLA. It lasts for quite some time and gives substantial damage resistances, though you should keep in mind that it only protects against physical damage - and a lot of the damage you take (particularly the dangerous parts) are magical in nature. Still, this is a pretty good skill.

    Most of the other fighter HLAs are fairly weak unfortunately. There are some fringe uses, but for the most part you'll just keep picking CS and Hardiness... Same with Rogues pretty much, nothing beats Assassination and Spike Trap (since UAI is a one-time thing).
    JarrakulThrasymachuschickenhed
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I second everything Lord_Tansheron said. I also want to point out that Magic Flute isn't awful, because it gives you a bunch of abilities in exchange for one HLA, but it's not great because it's nothing a mage couldn't've done five levels ago. The thing is, bards get a ton of HLAs, and there's only so many spike traps that you actually need. So I'd probably pick up Magic Flute eventually, if only so you can lay some Delayed Blast Fireball traps without clogging your mage's spell list.
    ThrasymachusKoyotesunset00
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    Since it wasn't covered, under WWA/GWW your off-hand eats one of the 10 attacks, so depending on your main-hand vs off-hand, it might actually better to unequip the off-hand weapon before using it, if you're saying using FoA. Depending on your str, Crom-faeyr MIGHT be ok, but it just depends on if it adds enough damage to make up for losing another FoA hit.

    Under IH your off-hand gets 2 attacks instead of it's normal 1 (it's the only effect in the game that gives the off-hand an additional attack, all other effects add extra attacks to the main-hand).
    Thrasymachus
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292

    Thanks for the replies so far!

    For Warriors, then, perhaps Smite when Hasted, and Greater Whirlwind for other times is a sensible strategy?

    As has already been mentioned, you want to use critical strike while under improved haste.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The 2 OH attacks are caused by how IH works: it says it doubles the APR, but what it really does is simply cut the time for a round in half, i.e. by the time everyone else has 1 normal round, the hasted char has 2. That's why you have 2 OH attacks, even though they are supposed to be capped at 1 per round.

    It's true that GWW has a slight advantage in that, especially if you unequip your (probably weaker) OH. Even accounting for that, though, I'm fairly sure IH remains the better choice, if you can build around it. There are still cases where you may want to use GWW, though, e.g. with ranged or 2h weapons, or in a fight with frequent dispels. On average though it will be worse than IH.
  • Tysonm1Tysonm1 Member Posts: 40
    Did I hear that correctly... bards can summon an image to sing songs as well? I'm going to think back on my skald army of five and then finding out I can now cast images with each of them on the second BG with the ability to sing at the same time? Oh sweet lordy-lordy.

    *Some moments of research later.* NOOOOOOO! It turns out it's a 7th level spell and Bards can't reach it. I'm going to cry somewhere...

    And get Greater Whirlwind, that's always some good stuff. I might have to get Hardiness for my Dwarven Defender.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I like the idea of Hardiness on a Dwarven Defender. 20% base DR (passive) + 50% (defensive stance) + 40% (Hardiness) = 110% physical damage resistance, unless something doesn't stack. Even though a lot of the most dangerous stuff isn't physical, total immunity to physical damage is pretty sick.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Gww is a fine choice for people without much high level magery, and especially with two handed weapons, it's math wise pretty much the same as imp haste, probably better if you are getting two attacks with belm, or the ss of speed. You will statistically get 1 crit with gww and either single weapon or two handed. With a very good thac0, you will not miss that often

    Agreed though that's its easier to use imp haste and crit strike, since imp haste will last awhile.

    Smite is a terrible ability often, as you whack everyone away. Situationally it's useful, but its often not as useful as one would expect.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326

    The 2 OH attacks are caused by how IH works: it says it doubles the APR, but what it really does is simply cut the time for a round in half, i.e. by the time everyone else has 1 normal round, the hasted char has 2. That's why you have 2 OH attacks, even though they are supposed to be capped at 1 per round.

    A bit off-topic, but does that mean global caster cooldown is reduced as well?
  • ICNICN Member Posts: 61
    Mathmick said:

    blockquote>

    A bit off-topic, but does that mean global caster cooldown is reduced as well?

    Nope, still only one spell per six seconds.

    As for HLAs, I'd recommend taking one or two GWW just in case IH gets dispelled or runs out at an inconvenient time.
    elminsterJarrakul
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 873
    So for Warriors, most HLAs should be: Critical Strikes, Hardiness, and a few 'backup' Greater Whirlwinds...

    For Bards: Use Any Item, Improved Bard Song, some Spike Traps, and eventually Magic Flute. Are there any other Bard HLAs worth getting? (Improved Evasion?)
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Tysonm1 said:

    Did I hear that correctly... bards can summon an image to sing songs as well? I'm going to think back on my skald army of five and then finding out I can now cast images with each of them on the second BG with the ability to sing at the same time? Oh sweet lordy-lordy.

    *Some moments of research later.* NOOOOOOO! It turns out it's a 7th level spell and Bards can't reach it. I'm going to cry somewhere...

    And get Greater Whirlwind, that's always some good stuff. I might have to get Hardiness for my Dwarven Defender.

    Mislead is a level 6 spell, and while it can't cast spells or anything, it can sing. I believe enhanced bard song also reaches across the whole map, so if you want to get cheesy you can place your mislead clone in a safe place far from the fight where it won't get dispelled.

    Thrasymachus
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    IE is situational. It hastes the character, immunity to normal missiles and gives them a huge bonus to saves. It's not horrible...but...it's situational....I'd rather have avoid death myself (instant, free-action, self-cast death ward and some other stuff) if I had to choose between the 2. Also IE requires taking 1 use of evasion which is $%#^.
    Thrasymachus
  • setsunaluvrsetsunaluvr Member Posts: 29
    I'm partial to the time stop/greater whirlwind combo for my fighter mage. Ten attacks is plenty, and then enemy can't fight back while time stop is active.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Mathmick said:

    A bit off-topic, but does that mean global caster cooldown is reduced as well?

    Afaik the "2 rounds in 1" only applies to attacks, nothing else.

    I'm partial to the time stop/greater whirlwind combo for my fighter mage. Ten attacks is plenty, and then enemy can't fight back while time stop is active.

    Time Stop + fighters is a great combination, but it doesn't make GWW any better than Improved Haste - it actually makes it even worse because you need to activate it, losing time. IH can be cast beforehand, not wasting any attacks, and lasts much longer.

    As for the Mislead/Song trick, that has become somewhat of a staple of bards, but is I believe fixed by several mods due to its somewhat abusive nature. Same goes for Mislead + Backstab, which allows for some pretty silly plays...
    Thrasymachus
  • setsunaluvrsetsunaluvr Member Posts: 29
    Yes, but improved haste is the same spell level as pierce magic and true sight. There are only so many spell slots, and you need pierce magic and true sight, and in carload lots. Which is why I prefer TS/GWW.
    elminster
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited September 2013
    True Sight is very good to be sure, as is Pierce Magic. Both can be replaced however (TS from Cleric/Inquisitor or any other dispel for invisibility effects; Pierce Magic by any number of magic dispels), while Improved Haste is unique. There's nothing wrong with taking GWW if your party setup doesn't allow for prolific use of IH, but people should know just how incredibly good it is.
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    I don't see anyone mentioning Power Attack...

    Throw a Greater Malison (and Doom if you want) and Power Attack makes a great mage-disabler. It doesn't usually work on fighter types or mini-bosses in ToB just because of how ridiculously low their saving throws are, even with those two spells working together.

    Also, in my experience, mage Planetars are better than cleric/paladin Devas. They have more spells available to them and they seem to be tougher.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Power Attack is simply too unreliable. Anyone who falls to it easily is likely not a big threat anyway, so why not pick something that helps against the really tough opponents?

    Planetars are indeed very good, likely the best summoned minions of all.
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 873

    I'm partial to the time stop/greater whirlwind combo for my fighter mage. Ten attacks is plenty, and then enemy can't fight back while time stop is active.

    I can see why that would be great, but that option isn't available to me (no fighter/mage).

    However, for Blades, would a timestop trap + offensive spin (or improved haste) be a good tactic? It strikes me as pretty decent, possibly worth picking one or two timestop traps...

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    The problem with timestop in general is that it's not useful against the later ToB bosses. In fact, it's a huge detriment--since many are TS-immune, it really just stops your party-mates for two rounds.
    elminsterThrasymachusJarrakul
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    What @CamDawg said is definitely true. You want your powerful abilities to be useful especially against your powerful opponents; but the designers foresaw the abusive potential of Time Stop, and made many bosses in ToB immune to it.

    Still, it's a neat trick to have. There are certainly enemies not immune to it that can be dispatched quickly with TS, especially in modded games (improved fire giants come to mind). The TS trap on the other hand is much worse than its spell counterpart. Not only does it not last as long, it also requires setting up beforehand. It's certainly a valid tactic in some scenarios, but it's probably going to be worse than Spike Trap in most cases.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    I thought there are only 2 enemies immune to time stop? Demorgorgon and Balthazar (and for him only if he uses one of his specials first).

    Which others are immune to time stop?
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    karnor00 said:

    I thought there are only 2 enemies immune to time stop? Demorgorgon and Balthazar (and for him only if he uses one of his specials first).

    Which others are immune to time stop?

    The final enemy at the Throne and Abazigal (in dragon form; can't remember if it applies to his human form, too) are immune as well.

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