Why BG:EE and BG2:EE are a wasted opportunity
Borsook
Member Posts: 152
I had great hopes for Enhanced Editions of what are my favourite RPGs of all time. BG:EE is not a bad game, as the source material was of a high quality, but with the BG2:EE coming with BG:EE still not in a state one would hope for, here are my thoughts on the basics that were and are not done as they should have been.
1. A bugless experience.
BG1 had its share of bugs, but after years of modding community ironing them out it got to a near perfect state. BG:EE came with new bugs, some of them glaring. A prologue quest broken? Rendering not working on Intel cards? Re-edition of a game this old should be smooth, an ultimate experience, you buy it once again to get all the things working out of the box. Not here.
2. No interface quirks solved
If you haven't play Icewind Dale 2, have a look at it. Infinity engine in its last version, has many usability fixes, you can e.g. change the function and number of buttons. Want more spell slots? You can do it. More item slots? Sure. Whereas BG:EE ships with the same old interface, which a player has to fights against. BG2's one looks better but seems to have the same, old functionality.
3. The potential of modern distribution not used.
Beamdog tried to have the game exclusively to maximize the revenue from each copy... but surely it would be better for customers to buy it wherever they want? Obvious places like gog.com? Taking advantage of steam's mod distribution and matchmaking? While the game is available through other stores than beamdog's, it's a situation forced by Atari, and the devs do not want to take advantage of them in any way.
4. No integration for the most popular mods
Some of the mods done in the past years are of better quality than the game itself. Anyone who played BG1 with and without BG1NPC project for example should know what I mean. Those mods could have been made compatible and even integrated into the game, they would be a more welcome addition than... black pits.
5. Wasting resources on meaningless additions.
Yes, black pits. Not only does it have nothing except combat (is this really the most appealing part of BG?) But it's not a part of the game even... those resources could have been used to add even a single quest to the game, or at least adding to its polish.
6. No AI improvements.
AI in BG has always been bad. There are mods out there (Stratagems) which make it much better, they could have been integrated again... But foremost - nothing has been done to the game's pathfinding system. Changing this would make the EE worth its price alone... Also some changes to the difficulty system could have been implemented (again look at IWD2), atm those who played the game a lot, or just like the challenge have to resolve to mods. Same as with vanilla BG...
I could continue this list some more, but these are the points that to me at least seem the most important.
1. A bugless experience.
BG1 had its share of bugs, but after years of modding community ironing them out it got to a near perfect state. BG:EE came with new bugs, some of them glaring. A prologue quest broken? Rendering not working on Intel cards? Re-edition of a game this old should be smooth, an ultimate experience, you buy it once again to get all the things working out of the box. Not here.
2. No interface quirks solved
If you haven't play Icewind Dale 2, have a look at it. Infinity engine in its last version, has many usability fixes, you can e.g. change the function and number of buttons. Want more spell slots? You can do it. More item slots? Sure. Whereas BG:EE ships with the same old interface, which a player has to fights against. BG2's one looks better but seems to have the same, old functionality.
3. The potential of modern distribution not used.
Beamdog tried to have the game exclusively to maximize the revenue from each copy... but surely it would be better for customers to buy it wherever they want? Obvious places like gog.com? Taking advantage of steam's mod distribution and matchmaking? While the game is available through other stores than beamdog's, it's a situation forced by Atari, and the devs do not want to take advantage of them in any way.
4. No integration for the most popular mods
Some of the mods done in the past years are of better quality than the game itself. Anyone who played BG1 with and without BG1NPC project for example should know what I mean. Those mods could have been made compatible and even integrated into the game, they would be a more welcome addition than... black pits.
5. Wasting resources on meaningless additions.
Yes, black pits. Not only does it have nothing except combat (is this really the most appealing part of BG?) But it's not a part of the game even... those resources could have been used to add even a single quest to the game, or at least adding to its polish.
6. No AI improvements.
AI in BG has always been bad. There are mods out there (Stratagems) which make it much better, they could have been integrated again... But foremost - nothing has been done to the game's pathfinding system. Changing this would make the EE worth its price alone... Also some changes to the difficulty system could have been implemented (again look at IWD2), atm those who played the game a lot, or just like the challenge have to resolve to mods. Same as with vanilla BG...
I could continue this list some more, but these are the points that to me at least seem the most important.
14
Comments
2. This one seems legit. I do not know reason behind this.
3. Gog.com? Please...
4. Forcing mods into people's throats isn't any good idea. While I could understand BG1NPC, some mods like SCS or Ascension are out of a question, due to difficulty these mods are adding. I want to beat the game without powergaming, which with Ascension is impossible.
Other than that, had devs just implemented modst there will be more haters who claim that "Overhaul never did anything, they're using modders work and they want money for it! It's a cash grab!" and other bullshit like that.
Due to fact that some modders are actually working with the devs, we can expect many mods to be made combatible with BG:EE. It's only matter of time.
5. I would rather have Black Pits than not having it. Just because you dislike Black Pits doesn't make them a waste of resources.
6. Minor AI improvements would be welcome but I believe I have said something about SCS. About pathfinding system, for all my knowledge, they tried doing that, but without success so far. I think by trying to improve it they broke something other in the progress.
If you have something other to your list, go ahead. Constructive critique is always welcomed.
The only major criticism I'm capable of leveling at Beamdog is that perhaps they bit off more than they could chew, in terms of production time, surpassing difficulty with ancient code, and legal issues. But I'm still thrilled that an actual company is constantly working to improve my favorite games, so hey.
Mods are a form of customization. CUSTOMization. The base game however almost by definition has to provide an average experience, for the average player. Once you start compromising to please everyone, only too often do you end up pleasing no-one.
Leaving mods as custom additions with a plethora of custom options makes sure that everyone can get the experience THEY want, not some streamlined version dictated by the developer. Sure Ascension is great - but as you mentioned, it's also quite difficult. More difficult, probably, than what the "average" gamer can handle these days. Keep in mind that BG still has a fairly steep learning curve when compared with modern games. There is little hand-holding, a lot of very complex, under-the-hood rules stuff, and a great variety of options to choose from and mess up on. Furthermore, "gaming" as such is much more widespread than it was 13 years ago; this game is likely to end up in the hands of an iPad user that has no clue about "powergaming" and the likes. Adding a difficult, even more complex mod to the experience can be detrimental for these people.
Long story short: mods do not have to be included, as long as they continue to be supported. In that way, BG:EE and BG2:EE have done great, in my opinion; they have sparked new mods, and renewed interest in the old ones, so they got updated, fixed, and expanded upon. You can never make the game perfect for everyone by default, and the modding community thrives on that. Adding variety and options via mods is what made BG such a great game, in my opinion, and it is also what has kept the game alive and going for over a decade. How many old games can boast that?
I think BG2:EE will exceed your expectations. I'm even sure it'll exceed anyone's expectations
And just wait till the hard-won patch for BG:EE is out. It will remove many issues.
BG2:EE?
Are you from the future?
If you want to have the discussion about whether the game should or should not have mods, that's fine (though BG:EE already has 1PP built into it, so really, that bell's been rung) but disinformation doesn't serve anyone's interests.
Personally, I view the story content in "Ascension" as a net improvement over the original much like the "Extended Cut" was to "Mass Effect 3" (people seem to forget that the components which make individual encounters more difficult are optional - the only encounter the core mod changes is the very last one, and by then your party is made of level 30 demigods and a bonus member). I don't know that I'd even be interested in playing BG2:EE without it. (Fortunately, it seems it might still be on the table.)
Secondly, and probably the biggest reason from Overhaul's perspective - they weren't allowed to. They have the right to BG assets. They do not have the rights to touch anything from the Icewind Dale series. This is why we couldn't get any of the awesome ID spell effects or monster sprites unless they had already been implemented in the original BG2. So, similarily, they wouldn't have been able to repurpose any of the UI code either or risked a lawsuit. They would have been forced to reinvent the wheel themselves (and even then they might have been in a risky territory law-wise), and that just brings us to your point number 5. Whether a complete or partial reinvention of the ID2 UI would have been a waste will be up to each and everyone to decide themselves of course, but to me, it would have. I've never had that much trouble with any BG or ID1 UI.
@ZelgadisGW - What's wrong with FIV?
I think this is what should be done in BG2EE.
Still I liked BG1EE a lot. Great NPCs, nice additions. I bought the game and I do not regret.
But right now I'm not sure about to buy or not buy BG2EE of what I've seen on youtube and screenshots... I think they rush with the release. And I'm not happy about the fact that only 1 new NPCs (Thief girl) is added!
Where's the Barbarian NPC?!?!?
I don't understand you.
It's important to keep in mind in a case like this though, that BG1 and 2 have had a steady (or growing) fanbase for 13-15 years, and have seen tremendous mod development and support (for a game not all too mod friendly to begin with) by the community during that time. The EE:s were designed in part to be much more mod friendly and allow easier addressing of several of the points mentioned in the OP, to over time result in a game series that looks and plays better than the original, is supported by its developers, more malleable in terms of mod content, and that keeps on evolving with new content. There's nothing wasted in that, if you ask me.
I would have hoped for as few bugs as possible (bugless is impossible) but there are some very retina-burning bugs that stand out.
The other points you made I do not agree because it doesn't affect the gaming experience; except maybe for the UI, which they said they will deliver a new one in the patch.
As for mods - I do not think they should be forced upon people, though Unfinished Business and BG1NPC could, some others could have been provided as options, oh and btw you do realize Ascension was written by one of the original game's devs, while it boosted difficulty too, but also added a better and fuller conclusion.
2. Again. This is something they could have improved much more and the next patch/BG2EE seems to be a step in the right direction. Though from what I understand the change is mostly aestethic.
3. Beamdog probably isn't the only one to blame here, though they definitely haven't expressed much enthusiasm to fix the situation either.
4. Completely disagree. Mods like eg. BG1NPCs make way too large changes to the feel of the game, and they definitely aren't universally loved either.
5. Completely agree. Black Pits is a utter waste of time and resources.
6. I'm pretty sure they are working with DavidW to implement something like this in the future.
I know that Ascension was writien by one of the original devs. It doesn't change a thing. It's still a mod.
There is nothing wrong about gog.com, besides the fact that every time EE is on the move (releasing EE, dealing with legal problem) gog is making DnD sale just to sell their version of BG to as much people as possible. I cannot blame Overhaul for not working with gog.
As for mods - of course it's a mod. But its content is as "legitimate" as anything put into BG:EE, more even as some parts of it (same with Unfinished Business) was intended to make into the original game and just were cut. Anyway, again, no mod has to be included by default. But getting steam workshop, or something with similar ease of use would be nice, wouldn't it? There many features that could be implemented easily this way, promised could saves could have been taken care of by steam. But no, promoting beamdog's platform was more important.
Now, for most people, the game plays absolutely fine, and for many already did. The original was busted to Hell, with many bugs, some gamebreaking (that house that didn't have an interior coded in BG, causing the game to crash for example). Quests, characters, items, spells, loads have been added, often where it should have been originally and wasn't for whatever reason.
People still calling the game a buggy mess probably either haven't played it lately or would just prefer to think about when it was a legitimate concern so they can keep bitching about it.
Gog.com even gave it's customers info about "how to enhance your Baldur's Gate for free" or something like that. Basically, it was tutorial about mods... So, they did everything in they might to discourage people from buying BG:EE. I cannot imagine them selling BG:EE after all that.
And about steam.... http://store.steampowered.com/app/228280/?snr=1_7_15__13
Ascension's content is nowhere legitimate. Prove me it was just cut-off, because I don't see this over-the-top final fight being considered "missing content" or anything like that. Especially considering difficulty level. People are just making excuse in order to Ascension to be implemented. Fine, ruin my game experience, will you?
As for steam, you misunderstand. Overhaul said the game will not come to steam before publishing it, the game was forced there by Atari. But steam is used only to download the game, it doesn't have could support, mod support, multiplayer and other features provided by steam. Because it is sold there against Overhaul's wishes.
As for Ascension- the author claimed he wanted to include some of it in the ToB but they ran out of time. Also I only said it is as legitimate as anything added to the game by overhaul. And you do understand that from the beginning I am saying that mods could be integrated as OPTIONAL content? Also if you run the weidu version of Ascension you will be able to install the story portion without making anything more difficult, have a go if the initial version all those years ago put you off with its difficult.
It was supposed to say GoG, not FIV, but my phone's autocorrect changed it. I don't think anyone will ever find anything positive about FIV unless you're like Skeletor levels of evil.
Just posting to clarify, since you've explained yourself since. I'm with Borsook though in that one can't blame GoG for trying to sell the version that they are selling.