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A Bit Late, Buuut...Make Dorn Il-Khan a Woman

SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
edited July 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
Now, hear me out, okay? I propose that the half-orc Blackguard NPC should be female for the following reasons:

1) All the female romances in BG2 are elf-blooded spellcasters. This would add some variety in that Blackguard is more of a warrior class than the multi-classed Jaheira.
2) More female characters that know their way around a sword besides Shar-Teel. Shar-Teel's a one-trick pony with her sexism, anyway.
3) A female romance that isn't a wounded dove. Sure, Jaheira and Viconia aren't as needy as Aerie, but they still need a shoulder to cry on. FemDorn could certainly have issues that need working out, but she's exactly the sort of character that isn't going to get all blubbery about it.
4) Half-orc gals get a bad rep for being ugly thanks to woeful art direction during the 3rd Edition D&D era, but a talented art team like BG:EE's clearly has what it takes to dispel this nasty stereotype with a strong, amazonian female character.
5) Dorn is an interesting name for a female character!
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Comments

  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    inb4 this is provided as optional launch dlc
  • WolfheartWolfheart Member Posts: 170
    But male's already have four confirmed romances (Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, new wildmage), female's only have 2 (No, the stupid annoying one doesn't count). Would be nice for him to be romancable for male's though :P And for extra fun, add in the girdle of genderwarping for fun :P
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Keep her as a female only romance. TA-DA!

    All in a day's work. ;)
  • WolfheartWolfheart Member Posts: 170
    @Aranneas Yay! Lesbian romance!
  • NWN_babaYagaNWN_babaYaga Member Posts: 732
    edited July 2012
    make him a pink donkey who wears rubberboots and I quit!
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    I'm more concerned with the over-all writing of the romance. As evil characters tend to have issues developing feelings of empathy and love, romances tend to lack depth unless an alignment conversion comes with it. Granted, most of the evil BG-world characters had better writing than the standard chaotic stupid-evil stereotype, but still for fairly obvious reasons there weren't any romances with them.
  • powerfulallypowerfulally Member Posts: 261
    edited July 2012
    @Schneidend I like it the way it is, female characters need more romance options and that should be it. "Dorn, interesting name for a woman", lawl.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Well if you are interested, you can always use the girdle of gender change :p
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Wolfheart said:

    @Aranneas Yay! Lesbian romance!

    HO YAY

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Shin said:

    I'm more concerned with the over-all writing of the romance. As evil characters tend to have issues developing feelings of empathy and love, romances tend to lack depth unless an alignment conversion comes with it. Granted, most of the evil BG-world characters had better writing than the standard chaotic stupid-evil stereotype, but still for fairly obvious reasons there weren't any romances with them.

    BG2 had the Viconia romance, an excellent one, and you didn't need to change her alignment to advance it.
    Aranneas said:

    Keep her as a female only romance. TA-DA!

    All in a day's work. ;)

    Noooooooo! D:
    ajwz said:

    Well if you are interested, you can always use the girdle of gender change :p

    Hmmm. True. But, alas, he'll still romance only women, and will still have the same portrait.
    powerfulally said:

    @Schneidend I like it the way it is, female characters need more romance options and that should be it. "Dorn, interesting name for a woman", lawl.

    Wolfheart said:

    But male's already have four confirmed romances (Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, new wildmage), female's only have 2 (No, the stupid annoying one doesn't count). Would be nice for him to be romancable for male's though :P And for extra fun, add in the girdle of genderwarping for fun :P

    They get Raasad and lesbian love with the wildmage. And Anomen totally counts!
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Shin said:

    I'm more concerned with the over-all writing of the romance. As evil characters tend to have issues developing feelings of empathy and love, romances tend to lack depth unless an alignment conversion comes with it. Granted, most of the evil BG-world characters had better writing than the standard chaotic stupid-evil stereotype, but still for fairly obvious reasons there weren't any romances with them.

    I would feel that a shallow romance with an evil character shows more depth and realism than another 'I MUST FIX YOUR LIFE AND THEN YOU WILL LOVE ME' plot.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I liked the Shar-Teel romance mod for that very reason, Aranneas! Although, the writer of that one did blow her hatred of men to comically one-dimensional and illogical proportions.
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Part of the reason, why I don't like the NPC project.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    It could have been worse. The majority of the romance was good, but that one aspect of her character was made to stand out for some reason.
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    The fact there was a romance seemed so unrealistic. Man she hates men with a passion, and all of a sudden a romance?
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    At first, she's just using you for sex. The actual romance doesn't come until later, and it's really easy to turn her off by being too clingy or misogynistic.
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Yeah but still, she seemed so hateful, that it seemed absolutely impossible she would even bed a man, let alone start a romance.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I disagree. Besides, hate and sexual attraction are not mutually exclusive.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Oh no no, wait a second, Annoymen totally DOESN'T count >:(

    :p
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    He so does. And you should be ashamed to besmirch his honor so, knave! Defend yourself!
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Schneidend said:

    Shin said:

    I'm more concerned with the over-all writing of the romance. As evil characters tend to have issues developing feelings of empathy and love, romances tend to lack depth unless an alignment conversion comes with it. Granted, most of the evil BG-world characters had better writing than the standard chaotic stupid-evil stereotype, but still for fairly obvious reasons there weren't any romances with them.

    BG2 had the Viconia romance, an excellent one, and you didn't need to change her alignment to advance it.
    Aye, that was indeed the one I was mainly thinking of. The way I see it, that romance only comes to a satisfying conclusion once she is influenced to an alignment change. Without that, it ends on the note of Viconia ultimately being "unable to feel love like the PC does", or something along those lines, which seems pretty characteristic of evil alignment. It's the gradual change in her, in my opinion, that makes the romance excellent.
    Aranneas said:

    I would feel that a shallow romance with an evil character shows more depth and realism than another 'I MUST FIX YOUR LIFE AND THEN YOU WILL LOVE ME' plot.

    I think those plots get an unfair bit of criticism personally. I suppose it's taken a bit too far in Aerie's case, but in general it seems fairly natural to share your issues with someone you feel affection for. I would say I prefer it over the "let's be evil and attain power together" plot.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Shin said:



    Aye, that was indeed the one I was mainly thinking of. The way I see it, that romance only comes to a satisfying conclusion once she is influenced to an alignment change. Without that, it ends on the note of Viconia ultimately being "unable to feel love like the PC does", or something along those lines, which seems pretty characteristic of evil alignment. It's the gradual change in her, in my opinion, that makes the romance excellent.

    I do appreciate the alignment change portion of the romance, but I much preferred the Evil track. In the ToB epilogue, you and Viconia become a villainous power couple pulling off schemes left and right, like if Xanatos and the Baroness ever hooked up in a crazy Gargoyles/G.I. Joe crossover.
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    @shin

    Aerie is a prime example of this being done so very wrong, but I wouldn't call my criticism unfair. It's entirely natural to share your issues with someone you trust and feel affection for. It's idiotic to expect them to be able to change you in any way. Change comes from wanting to change, not from mutual dependence with another person. You can find comfort in other people, or inspiration to make a change in yourself, but you won't gain anything by throwing away control of your own life.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    @Schneidend Well, I always figured the conversation options you had to pick to continue Viconia's romance were ultimately more good than evil, as you ended up demonstrating genuine caring and eventually love for her. Though I suppose it would be plausible for that kind of ending with Dorn as well, if he's well written and there is a credible way to handle the issue of evil-aligned beings developing those kind of emotions.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Aranneas said:

    @shin

    Aerie is a prime example of this being done so very wrong, but I wouldn't call my criticism unfair. It's entirely natural to share your issues with someone you trust and feel affection for. It's idiotic to expect them to be able to change you in any way. Change comes from wanting to change, not from mutual dependence with another person. You can find comfort in other people, or inspiration to make a change in yourself, but you won't gain anything by throwing away control of your own life.

    Well yeah, I do agree that it's taken too far with Aerie's hopelessness at first - but I also recall feeling the romance came to a good conclusion later on as she went through a change of character and ended up a lot more confident and mature as a result of you standing by her. I suppose I don't look at it as throwing away control of your own life as much as being in a bad place and needing a push to do something about it.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    It seems you're operating under the assumption that the Evil alignments are synonymous with being a complete and utter sociopath. This isn't always the case. Caring about things and being evil are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I would argue that caring too much about specific things or people is the easiest way to justify evil acts to yourself.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    @Schneidend I'd say that from the way the alignments are described, bonds between evil characters mostly seem rather utilitarian, be it love or friendship. In all cases I can think of where an evil character ended up truly caring for someone other than themselves, it was because they weren't really fundamentally evil after all, a bit like Darth Vader at the end of episode 6.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    A well-rounded evil character can earnestly profess love for his wife and order the destruction of an entire nation in the same breath. Hell, said destruction might be an anniversary gift.
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    it all depends on your definition of 'evil'. if you look at evil as 'willing to pursue your own happiness and goals at cost to others' there's nothing keeping them from forming stable emotional connections. this is the way most well developed evil characters are portrayed in RPGs.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    " Dorna ", sexy half-ork warrior, i like that idea.
    BTW Schneidend are right, BG2 offer only elfs spellcasters romance:

    Aerie = Naive idiot ( sorry guys but she is soooo stupid )
    Jaheira = Cold, frigid " princes " ( no comment )
    Viconia = Crazy bitch ( but this is good )
    Anomen = BAKA, BAKA, BAKA !!!!!!!!


    I dont know what sort will be Neera, but from pictures and description she look like another Aerie.

    One time, please just one time i want romance with " normal " woman what dont have fresh dead husband, cut off wings or mess up morality from living in underdark. I dont care if she will be evil ( actually evil will be nice change ) but let her act like normal woman !

    Do we really want so much ?
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