@FinneousPJ: For me, it wasn't about 'getting what I wanted'. I'm not that childish. But is it really that abnormal that people with healthy moral values put question marks at such a dubious contest? Suicide is not something to be taken lightly. Especially for those who have known people who have committed suicide in their life, or have had suicidal thoughts themselves at some point in their life.
@FinneousPJ: I have no agenda. Just a healthy sense for moral values. Sicide is not something to joke with, that's all. To what end? To make people think about suicide being used in the context of this art contest, and how dubious it actually is to show a naked Harley Quinn planning to commit suicide. I suggest you read @LadyRhian's posts again for a better explanation of my own view.
Suicide in the bath is a fairly common means of doing so. Whether you like it or not, jokes about death are commonplace and, most of the time, nothing to be ashamed of. It's a way of dealing with a concept of ending, something that will inevitably happen to all of us. Be morally outraged if you must, it doesn't make you right.
@Magnus_Grelich: That last sentence is written out of your own perspective, so no, my opinion isn't neccessarily 'not right'. YOU think it's not right. Please don't generalize your own opinion as the right one. I know that jokes around death and suicide exist, just like black humour, but does this contest reach the same effect? The fact that the organisators made an apology, can only indicate there were more people than me and @LadyRhian who thought sexualization of suicide isn't to be taken without any criticism at all. I am not 'morally outraged'. There are far worse cases to be 'morally outraged' for, such as black lesbians in Africa being raped in an attempt to 'convert' them to heterosexualism. I just think that this is also a weird suggestion for an art contest in the first place, regardeless of it featuring the supposedly psychotic Harley Quinn character. @FinneousPJ: Let's agree to disagree then.
@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud: Neither is yours. I'm just rolling my eyes at something that seems, quite frankly, like overblown and self-indulgant 'moral guardian'-ism on the part of the poster of this thread. I am as much within my rights to consider it such as they are to claim it's "sickening".
@Magnus_Grelich: If you think sexualized suicide is something morally acceptable, and on a more implicit note the sexual objectification of women, then fine, be that way. But don't expect my respect for you if you think that way. Especially when you throw around such ignorant hate-speech like that around yourself concerning the opinion of someone else. If someone would like to discuss this further with me, please contact me through PM, as I'm done with this topic.
I'm not even thinking about any sexual aspect of it! For god's sake, what is wrong with you?! I am tired and stressed from work, I don't need this stupidity!
@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud It is ironical that the only people who see "sexualized suicide" in this are those who oppose such idea. It didn't come to my mind even once that their aim was to make suicide look sexy or whatever it is you and LadyRhian make up out of it. It's just absurd to see someone's work, imply an offensive idea and bash both the artist and the made-up idea as sickening without even speaking to the author. I suggest trying to think a little more in touch with reality and less trying-my-best-to-find-something-offensive-kinda way.
I suggest to use a thing called "emphaty". It will help some hopeless people realize the way how women can feel about that contest. If you are unable to use it, there is nothing to discuss with you people.
I don't have anything against drawing nudity, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. And that contest just did. There is plenty, really plenty ways of commiting suicide, but they require Harley to be naked in the bathtub. Why specificaly Harley, who is often considered "hot"? Why suicide? The answer is: f*ck you, that's why. There is no context and hardly any place for creativity.
And that is why I can understand women, who feel offended at the case: they're often sexualized in media, and now there is a context that shows dead woman in a sexual way (nudity, mind you) that is absolutely pointless.
Or maybe not. Maybe DC was aiming for controversy. If that's the case, we are all stupid, since we're doing what DC just want us to do.
@ZelgadisGW I don't understand why so many people have such a problem with sexuality these days. I enjoy being sexualized by women and I couldn't care less if there was a hot a guy in a bathtub commiting suicide. Besides Harley Queen has been sexualized from the beginning.
@Fredjo The problem here is not with the sexualization per se, but with exploiting it especially in a context (the suicide thing) which shouldn't be put in a positive light, such as the one that might sparkle in people's minds because of the connection with sex.
Also, you can't compare sexualization of men to the one of women, since we do live yet in a patriarchally sexist society.
@alnair I've said my opinions regarding the view of "sexualized suicide" in the last 2 pages. I was commenting on ZelgadisGW's comment.
Show me a matriarchal country where women will hit on me all the time wanting to have sex and I'm moving there right away. Lower wages for men? I don't care because my wife would make more money. Less job opportunities? I don't care because my wife would have a good job. et cetera et cetera..
I want to chime in agreement with LadyRhian, there is something darkly fetishitistic about panel 4. That is not to say it shouldn't be done, but I think LadyRhian highlights something problematic with the very idea. Besides there are plenty of better ways they could go with if they want to provoke debate. There is a theme in this that echoes the dead maiden in the water in older artworks (see Ophelia by Sir John Elliott Millais for an example, and also a suicide).
Where that piece of art succeeds where this panel competition fails is you see the beautiful maiden, are struck by her beauty, and yet knowing her to be dead are struck with the idea of how feminine beauty exists in that image, but without the animating life force of a real human being, which again suggests interesting (and uncomfortable) notions about what we perceive as beautiful, not even requiring the real living person.
Where this panel shoots itself in the foot is given the target market, any significant depth that could be given to the subject matter will be lost as if you just look at the brief: nudity (wether implied or explicit), is a requirement whereas the tragedy of the situation is not. All that will happen is yet another titillating image, as if DC doesn't make enough of those! Fans will be serviced, and anyone of any insight like LadyRhian will be left rolling their eyes.
For the record I am not against sexualisation in comics, but more often than not it veers off into objectification. By all means have overtly sexual women, but you don't have to keep dipping into that well to the exclusion of all other avenues of presenting femininity.
@Fredjo These days? Sir, you realize that in the past people had much more problems with contents like these? Taking that into account, no one can say that that in "these days" people have such problems with sexuality. It is absolute lack of context required that is the problem here.
I'm glad that you have no objections for men to be sexualized. Too bad it doesn't change anything.
@ZelgadisGW I've had my share of feminist thinking before I realized the way nature works. I can only give you a friendly advice to be more a man and less a p&&&y, and I don't mean that in a derogatory notion, it's an expression used for men who fight against women's sexualization but at the very same time, think about having sex with them with all the kinky fantasies every one of us has.
I think it's a social programming that makes us deny our primal feelings, thankfully I've met women by now who themselves try to transform p&&&y men into men. And those women are also the ones who wouldn't give a damn as myself about this DC Comics ad, because they are free. They don't take everything personally and as "against women" and they wouldn't see this as a "sexualization of suicide of women".
@Frejdo I'm not a pussy. I'm just more mature than you, and in spite of being an pervert, I have a respect for women. That's because I am the one controlling my sexual drive, not other way around. I'm also aware that sex is crucial in our lives, thank you. Even an avarege kid from junior high knows this. If you have problem with "social programming" and sex, then, according to Freud, you have a serious problem with your id and superego. In short, your psychosexual development is fucked up.
The fact that you don't use your emphaty and you have very aggresive disposition while discussing is a sign that speaking with you is a waste of time. If you want a discussion, be assertive instead.
PS. I don't recall mentioning feminists. I prefer rely on my own mind and morals, instead on a opinion of certain group of people.
@ZelgadisGW I don't think your answer is calm enough to say, that I have an aggressive disposition and thus it's a waste of time to talk to me. Either way, I do have a problem with social programming yes, with sex, no. Dunno what would Freud think about it, but I feel healthy enough.
Concerning empathy and respect for women, I think there's a misunderstanding, I do have as much respect for women as for men, not more and not less, it might have seemed from my comments that I'm an all-day so called "womanizer" but that's because I'm now commenting in defense of general freedom, and I haven't stated my disposition and behavior to women.
I have empathy when the situation calls, but this is not the case. In my eyes, this is an artificially constructed problem abusing the idea of "sexualized suicide" which has been applied to and has nothing to do with the original DC Comics ad.
I think I misused the term "feminist", what I had in mind was the general fighting against sexualization.
Look at the end of the day we are all products of our genes, and our environment. Which is the greater factor I'll leave to academics. I don't think ZelgadisGW is being a pussy at all Fredjo. Wether you agree with him or not, if he identifies a problem in society and attempts to reason through it, it does nobody any harm. Besides you talk about being free, surely he is exercising that freedom right now?
Besides if you now realise how nature works in all her manifold glories you are well ahead of everyone on this thread, including me, but I suspect you have the same as the rest of us, some insights in some areas. I happen to agree with those who have identified a problem with objectification, but not out of some white knight delusion. I'm not out to champion the cause of women, but rather a more comprehensive view of humanity. In truth objectification does not help the male psyche much either.
I find it telling you both refer to sex as some sort of kink or element that needs to be controlled. Sex is perfectly natural, and nobody of either sex feeling sexual attraction towards another needs hide it, feel ashamed or even consider it kinky. We are an imaginative species, and are just as creative when it comes to sex as anything else, nothing inherently abnormal there.
Comments
Whether you like it or not, jokes about death are commonplace and, most of the time, nothing to be ashamed of. It's a way of dealing with a concept of ending, something that will inevitably happen to all of us. Be morally outraged if you must, it doesn't make you right.
@FinneousPJ: Let's agree to disagree then.
humans
The fact that you don't think about sexual aspect of it is why you just don't understand the problem here.
I mean I don't even think of it as sexual! It's just a damn picture! How hard is that for you all to grasp?
It is ironical that the only people who see "sexualized suicide" in this are those who oppose such idea.
It didn't come to my mind even once that their aim was to make suicide look sexy or whatever it is you and LadyRhian make up out of it.
It's just absurd to see someone's work, imply an offensive idea and bash both the artist and the made-up idea as sickening without even speaking to the author. I suggest trying to think a little more in touch with reality and less trying-my-best-to-find-something-offensive-kinda way.
I don't have anything against drawing nudity, but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. And that contest just did. There is plenty, really plenty ways of commiting suicide, but they require Harley to be naked in the bathtub. Why specificaly Harley, who is often considered "hot"? Why suicide? The answer is: f*ck you, that's why. There is no context and hardly any place for creativity.
And that is why I can understand women, who feel offended at the case: they're often sexualized in media, and now there is a context that shows dead woman in a sexual way (nudity, mind you) that is absolutely pointless.
Or maybe not. Maybe DC was aiming for controversy. If that's the case, we are all stupid, since we're doing what DC just want us to do.
To sum it up, humans.
I don't understand why so many people have such a problem with sexuality these days. I enjoy being sexualized by women and I couldn't care less if there was a hot a guy in a bathtub commiting suicide. Besides Harley Queen has been sexualized from the beginning.
To sum it up, humans = sexual creatures
The problem here is not with the sexualization per se, but with exploiting it especially in a context (the suicide thing) which shouldn't be put in a positive light, such as the one that might sparkle in people's minds because of the connection with sex.
Also, you can't compare sexualization of men to the one of women, since we do live yet in a patriarchally sexist society.
I've said my opinions regarding the view of "sexualized suicide" in the last 2 pages. I was commenting on ZelgadisGW's comment.
Show me a matriarchal country where women will hit on me all the time wanting to have sex and I'm moving there right away. Lower wages for men? I don't care because my wife would make more money. Less job opportunities? I don't care because my wife would have a good job. et cetera et cetera..
Where that piece of art succeeds where this panel competition fails is you see the beautiful maiden, are struck by her beauty, and yet knowing her to be dead are struck with the idea of how feminine beauty exists in that image, but without the animating life force of a real human being, which again suggests interesting (and uncomfortable) notions about what we perceive as beautiful, not even requiring the real living person.
Where this panel shoots itself in the foot is given the target market, any significant depth that could be given to the subject matter will be lost as if you just look at the brief: nudity (wether implied or explicit), is a requirement whereas the tragedy of the situation is not. All that will happen is yet another titillating image, as if DC doesn't make enough of those! Fans will be serviced, and anyone of any insight like LadyRhian will be left rolling their eyes.
For the record I am not against sexualisation in comics, but more often than not it veers off into objectification. By all means have overtly sexual women, but you don't have to keep dipping into that well to the exclusion of all other avenues of presenting femininity.
These days? Sir, you realize that in the past people had much more problems with contents like these? Taking that into account, no one can say that that in "these days" people have such problems with sexuality. It is absolute lack of context required that is the problem here.
I'm glad that you have no objections for men to be sexualized. Too bad it doesn't change anything.
I've had my share of feminist thinking before I realized the way nature works. I can only give you a friendly advice to be more a man and less a p&&&y, and I don't mean that in a derogatory notion, it's an expression used for men who fight against women's sexualization but at the very same time, think about having sex with them with all the kinky fantasies every one of us has.
I think it's a social programming that makes us deny our primal feelings, thankfully I've met women by now who themselves try to transform p&&&y men into men. And those women are also the ones who wouldn't give a damn as myself about this DC Comics ad, because they are free. They don't take everything personally and as "against women" and they wouldn't see this as a "sexualization of suicide of women".
I'm not a pussy. I'm just more mature than you, and in spite of being an pervert, I have a respect for women. That's because I am the one controlling my sexual drive, not other way around. I'm also aware that sex is crucial in our lives, thank you. Even an avarege kid from junior high knows this. If you have problem with "social programming" and sex, then, according to Freud, you have a serious problem with your id and superego. In short, your psychosexual development is fucked up.
The fact that you don't use your emphaty and you have very aggresive disposition while discussing is a sign that speaking with you is a waste of time. If you want a discussion, be assertive instead.
PS. I don't recall mentioning feminists. I prefer rely on my own mind and morals, instead on a opinion of certain group of people.
I don't think your answer is calm enough to say, that I have an aggressive disposition and thus it's a waste of time to talk to me. Either way, I do have a problem with social programming yes, with sex, no. Dunno what would Freud think about it, but I feel healthy enough.
Concerning empathy and respect for women, I think there's a misunderstanding, I do have as much respect for women as for men, not more and not less, it might have seemed from my comments that I'm an all-day so called "womanizer" but that's because I'm now commenting in defense of general freedom, and I haven't stated my disposition and behavior to women.
I have empathy when the situation calls, but this is not the case. In my eyes, this is an artificially constructed problem abusing the idea of "sexualized suicide" which has been applied to and has nothing to do with the original DC Comics ad.
I think I misused the term "feminist", what I had in mind was the general fighting against sexualization.
Going to bed now.
Besides if you now realise how nature works in all her manifold glories you are well ahead of everyone on this thread, including me, but I suspect you have the same as the rest of us, some insights in some areas. I happen to agree with those who have identified a problem with objectification, but not out of some white knight delusion. I'm not out to champion the cause of women, but rather a more comprehensive view of humanity. In truth objectification does not help the male psyche much either.
I find it telling you both refer to sex as some sort of kink or element that needs to be controlled. Sex is perfectly natural, and nobody of either sex feeling sexual attraction towards another needs hide it, feel ashamed or even consider it kinky. We are an imaginative species, and are just as creative when it comes to sex as anything else, nothing inherently abnormal there.