How do you use a Kensai in BG 1?

Heindrich

Context

Although it will probably be a while before I finish my current BG 2 run and start a new BG EE to BG 2 EE run, I have kept an eye open for potential portraits to use, which of course depends on what class I use.

This would be my 2nd full-saga play-through and my first (current) one is with a Half-Elf Fighter/Mage.

My Charname is inspired by characters from the Chinese Wuxia fantasy genre, like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUKvbTPhB-U

Where heroes/villains are expert martial artists, whose abilities are so advanced they essentially become "magical". Almost nobody wears armour for some reason, presumably because it encumbers the use of advanced techniques. The builds I've considered to represent something like that are:

1) Fighter ==> Mage
But there would be a heavy incentive to wear the heaviest armour I can find in BG 1, and I fear the experience would be too similar to Fighter/Mage.

2) Ranger ==> Cleric
A very powerful build I know... but I prefer Mage spells, and I don't want to roleplay somebody devoted to a deity.

3) Monk
I also associate them with the worship of deities, not to mention rules on romantic relationships, which also complicates RP. (Also, is it even possible to dual-class a monk into a mage? Never seemed to have come across it.)

4) Kensai ==> Mage
Seems very attractive, but a few problems concern me, which is a crux of this thread...

For my 2nd full-saga play through from BG EE to BG 2 EE, I am considering rolling a Kensai ==> Mage. I know this is a powerful build in the long run, but I am not a powergamer, so I intend to do a few non-optimal things for RP purposes like:

1) His stats will be
Str 15
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 13

2) My gameplay decisions will be primarily influenced by RP choices, so I will probably miss a lot of quests and treasure if the game doesn't point me in a direction. Certainly no barging into random houses in Beregost and Baldur's Gate.

3) I intend to begin the dual-classing process at the very start of BG 2, to represent the fact that Gorion wanted Charname to stay away from the dangerous pursuit of arcane magic, and so he had no idea he had magical potential, which only emerged as a result of Irenicus' "experiments". Also the experiments weakened him physically, which nicely explains why he loses all fighter bonuses for a fairly long time. The dual-class switch will likely begin at lv8, which I know isn't efficient at all.

SO... given all that, I am a bit concerned that Charname will be totally useless in the entirety of BG 1. I don't mind if he feels weak, as I feel that Khalid and Jaheira are essentially his guardians, and I don't mind Charname taking a backseat role in the thick of the fighting compared to most of the companions.

Incidentally, the companions I intend to use are:
Imoen
Khalid
Jaheira
Neera
Kivan

However I don't want to have Charname standing behind Khalid and co. and doing nothing for the entire game. Yet, given that a Kensai cannot use missile weapons, wear any armour or even use bracers... WHAT can he actually do in BG 1? Is there any way to make him somewhat useful?

Thanks if you read all that

Dee

I'd bump Strength to 16 and reduce Con to 13. A Dex-based swordsman makes sense unless the rule system you're playing with doesn't let you use Dex for melee weapons.

For weapons, I'd go with scimitars; there's enough of them around to be useful, and if you then also specialize in two-weapon fighting, you can make a smashing "Whirling Dervish"-type character.

From a practical stand-point, however, you may want to dump your first two extra proficiencies into Single Weapon Style; those extra two points of AC will make you last longer in the few occasions that you do actually go toe-to-toe with your enemies.

BelgarathMTH

Hmm, I've never been a fan of the kensai class, but I believe what you're supposed to do is to let the front line fighters get the enemies' attention, and then try to move in from behind and do a hit or two for massive damage (using a ki strike or a katana). If you draw enemy aggression, you probably need to run away, so items like the boots of speed would be helpful.

Since the main use of the class strategically is to do high damage without getting hit, you might want to consider building dual-wield instead of single weapon style, but either could work. It depends on whether you see the character as having a defensive fighting style, or a very aggressive fighting style, I guess.

I would think that it would play about like the monk class. It would be an investment in eventually being very powerful, at the expense of being very vulnerable for a very long time. (Most of BG1).

What I would worry about even more than bad armor class would be critical hits. Archers will also be a major concern. I'd predict that you'll be reloading several times over your run when your Charname gets targeted and the enemy rolls a natural 20. Maybe you could just play that your party gets you raised any time you fall? You could pay the proper resurrection fee at a temple to "pay" for each reload, maybe?

Southpaw

@Heindrich1988 - firstly - I like your approach, role-playing a character you would like to play, not just power-gaming it and getting the biggest baddest monster-killer possible as is the usual approach from most other forum members (including me...sometimes).

There are numerous walls of text me or anyone else would be able to produce on this topic. I'll try to be brief. Few tips on playing a Kensai in BGEE:
- as you will be primarily a mage end-game, I would go Katana** and Single weapon proficiency ** + on level 1. And then dump all the other points further into Katanas. Primarily building towards the Katana in BG2EE that will grant you more spells. (You might need to EEkeeper you a starting Katana as they are expensive and I don't think your Kensai would want to butcher Candlekeep's Watchers for the money to afford it++)
- I know you aren't a power-gamer, but I'd personally bump the attributes to 16/17/14/17/10/13 (-1 int,+1 str)
- When you emerge from Candlekeep, let someone else tank and position yourself more on flanks to deliver the damage, but avoid the blows.
-Don't hesitate and use potions. There are several very good potions only Fighters can use. Like Potion of Invulnerability (gets your AC and saves very low). Or Magic Blocking. Also other, good potions - Oils of Flaming (Hand-held fireball for swarms of foes)
- Gear to get as soon as possible, that will make things easier:
*Shield Amulet - buy it at Carnival. Use it as much as possible - it's cheap and great.
*Belt from the Ogre below FAI (-AC against missiles), Boots from Nimbul (-AC against missiles), +1 Protection Ring. Helmet from the Ogre mage Shoal the Nereid summons.+++
- Later good gear:
*Balduran's Helm, Balduran's Cloak/Cloak of Displacement, Ring +2 from Ramazith, Boots of Speed...


In BG2EE - I would dual at level 9 (=shortly after emerging from Irenicus' dungeon)

Good luck.



+ - I personally would opt for Single Weapon proficiency for a K/M dual-class (-2 AC, better criticals). Some others may promote dual-wielding (more damage, less protection). Ultimately ... it is not a very big difference, if you aren't a hardcore power gamer. You choose your flavor.
++ - Alternatively, if not Katanas, then Long Swords. But there are no Long Swords in BG2 that will complement your Mage class. Or Scimitars and nick one (or both) from Drizzt.
+++ - not sure Kensais can use hemlets. Shame, there are no circlets or Ioun stones in BGEE :-(

ZanathKariashi

The only problem with Single weapon style is that damn near everything is immune to crits, except stuff that can be chunked effortlessly anyway, so it's almost always better to go for dual-wielding, since a reliable extra attack is better then a 10% chance for an extra attack in one hit, that'll probably be blocked by a helm (or scimitar in the headslot...looking at you BG2 Drizzt!). And the AC bonus is only really useful very early on. Once you can break 0 via other protections, AC can be pretty much ignored, as long you don't do something stupid like run into the middle of a bunch of archers with no movement speed boost.


Though yeah, you basically just wanna play a damage dealer..unless you have a large supply of potions of speed, haste, or boots of speed to allow you to close the distance to strike (especially vs archers/mages) and then move away, if the target is a power-hitter, like ogres, taking advantage of your 0 swing speed you probably have to strike first.

Nah, Kensai can't use helms...but it's not THAT big a deal, and unlike a mage/thief/bard, you've got the HP to take it even if that 5% chance comes up.

Heindrich

Thanks all for tactics and suggestions.

I guess I will have to get used to using Charname in a hit and run role... might be a bit tedious until Neera can help out with magical protections... that said, asking a Wild Mage to protect you might backfire... I guess I'll be using defense/protection potions much more this time around as well, instead of just selling them all once Charname had Full-Plate Armour/Ankheg Plate.

Southpaw said:

@Heindrich1988 - firstly - I like your approach, role-playing a character you would like to play, not just power-gaming it and getting the biggest baddest monster-killer possible as is the usual approach from most other forum members (including me...sometimes).
(

Thanks, that's generally how I play all single-player games. I only metagame for multiplayer games where I am too competitive to 'just have fun' lol. For single player games, whether it's Football Manager, Baldur's Gate or the Total War games, it's all about creating an interesting story and interesting challenges. One thing about playing Kensai ==> Mage that really appeals to me is the transformation the character undergoes, from being nearly useless to possessing incredibly power. It's perfect for capturing the "Hero's Journey" type of story genre within the game.

That's also why I'll initiate the dual-class process at the very start of BG 2, even though I know I'd be missing out on an important level up for Kensai lv9.

I haven't thought so far ahead for proficiency allocations yet. My initial idea is to use one-handed weapon proficiency and Long Swords, before transitioning to Dual-wielding katanas in BG 2. I guess it's probably not very efficient, but I don't want to resort to cheating to acquire an early katana in BG 1, and I don't remember where I can find one anyway. I will probably skip Scimitars this time because I do not intend to rob/kill Drizzt (again).

belgarathmth said:

What I would worry about even more than bad armor class would be critical hits. Archers will also be a major concern. I'd predict that you'll be reloading several times over your run when your Charname gets targeted and the enemy rolls a natural 20. Maybe you could just play that your party gets you raised any time you fall? You could pay the proper resurrection fee at a temple to "pay" for each reload, maybe?

That's a good idea, though I was not planning a limited reload challenge anyway. I suspect that'd be a bad idea with Neera around, as well as a nearly useless Charname lol.

Dee said:

I'd bump Strength to 16 and reduce Con to 13. A Dex-based swordsman makes sense unless the rule system you're playing with doesn't let you use Dex for melee weapons.

Hmm... Yeah it does annoy me that Dex does nothing for your melee THAC0, even though striking accurately has more to do with that than Str. I suppose it is a balance issue. I figure Str isn't too important because there's plenty of Str enhance items in BG and BG 2, especially the latter.

Frosty

The Kensai AC trouble can be fixed with a cleric in the party casting barkskin on your character, and I would recommend axe or dagger for your weapons, there are a good selection of both that don't get used much, and the Kensai can use throwing axes and daggers.

Shrimp

I still have a hard time accepting that a kensai could use anything that isn't some sort of sword... I mean, it's even in their name!

kamuizin

Heindrich1988 said:

Dee said:

I'd bump Strength to 16 and reduce Con to 13. A Dex-based swordsman makes sense unless the rule system you're playing with doesn't let you use Dex for melee weapons.

Hmm... Yeah it does annoy me that Dex does nothing for your melee THAC0, even though striking accurately has more to do with that than Str. I suppose it is a balance issue. I figure Str isn't too important because there's plenty of Str enhance items in BG and BG 2, especially the latter.

This, exactly what we're discussin in this thread. Also Kensai is one of the kits outside thief or bard that i think to deserve an remake in the hit/damage rule system, making both to hit and damage to come from dexterity for this kit.

Shrimp

Maybe you could get a Dex bonus to THAC0 when you're unarmored? Well, that would probably help monks more than pure kensais... (kensais have lots of issues, but at high level, THAC0 ain't one...)

Southpaw

I liked the way for example NWN handled this - I believe those were 3e rules:
There was a feat, that you could choose which would let you use Dexterity bonus for attacking, instead of Strength. Only for small blades and unarmed. So perfect for Thieves, Monks etc...

kamuizin

Southpaw said:

I liked the way for example NWN handled this - I believe those were 3e rules:
There was a feat, that you could choose which would let you use Dexterity bonus for attacking, instead of Strength. Only for small blades and unarmed. So perfect for Thieves, Monks etc...

Was not perfect but did the work.

Weapon finesse feat made you use dexterity to hit instead of strengh if it was greater, only with small weapons (dagger, club, mace, small hammers, rapiers...). Anyone could get this feat;

Weapon insight, add your int modifier to the hit damage, only with small weapons (dagger, club, mace, small hammers, rapiers...). Swashbuckler level 3 only feat (warrior class there as it should be);

Weapon something else. Epic feat. Use int over str to determine damage with melee weapon. Any weapon.

Anduin

How do you use a Kensai in BG 1?

One word... Badly.

Purudaya

Anduin said:

How do you use a Kensai in BG 1?

One word... Badly.

I actually just finished a kensai run (core rules) and really enjoyed it. I wouldn't recommend it on a roll lower than 86, though...and definitely not without barkskin. Highest melee damage dealer in the party once you get some decent katanas

Southpaw

Anduin said:

How do you use a Kensai in BG 1?

One word... Badly.

I have finished a run thru BGTutu years ago with a Kensai. Once you give him Shield spell or Barkskin, he is like the other fighters - but better. If you use some potions (Potion of Invulnerability etc), he get really tough.

Battlehamster

@Heindrich1988

Not sure if you can do this with EE/mods, and the post is ages late but...

What about rolling up a Kensai/Illusionist? Its kind of reminiscent of the whole ninjitsu flavoring and could make for an interesting roleplay. The focus then becomes more on not getting hit at all with mirror image/similcrum, etc. rather than having a really high armor class.

nano

@Battlehamster You can only have one kit at a time. Although there was a post about a workaround, it seems to be buggy...

I think using throwing daggers as a Kensai would work pretty well. Normally I would shy away from this as it's an exploit and they're not supposed to use ranged weapons at all, but in this case it fits quite well with the flavor. Throwing knives and martial arts and ninjas!