Dual Classing Druids Questions

Varwulf

So back in the day when I used to play a lot, I rarely dual classed (and when I did want to have more than one class I usually multi-classed). Lately, since BG: EE's release, I've been exploring dual classing a bit more. I thought I had a decent understanding of the concept, that is, until I began to experiment with Druid dual classing.

So far I've attempted to dual class an Avenger Druid at level 10 to a Fighter. The first frustration I find is that the game teases you by making it seem like you can put points in katana and other weapons, but that isn't what this post is about. Basically, when my druid becomes a fighter, she no longer has any druid abilities. Eh? What's the point then? Now I have a neutered fighter who can only use druid weapons? Or am I missing something here?

I tried again, this time going from a Kensai level 8 to a Druid. The character lost all of her Kensai abilities. What?

I know this is a totally noobish question, and feel dumb asking it, but what am I doing wrong here? Dual classing seems to be a lot more complex than I originally experienced and one source I found claims that Dual classing a Shapeshifter Druid to a fighter is "ultimate badassery". I fail to see how if you lose all of your Druid abilities to become a neutered fighter :P

Lord_Tansheron

You will lose all abilities until the point where your new class has a HIGHER LEVEL than the old class. At that point, you will regain all your old abilities. It's a bit confusing at times, and especially once you get down to the fine print.

So, say you dual a lvl 6 druid to fighter. It will then be a lvl1 fighter, with no druid abilities at all. When you level to lvl 7 fighter, though, you will gain back all your druid abilities, and keep them from then on. You'll still only level as fighter from that point, though, so you might end up as, say, a lvl 6 druid/lvl 30 fighter in BG2. You will keep your druid abilities, but they will never improve.

There's tons of details on dual-classing though, and the system is quite complex indeed. If you have more concrete questions, feel free to ask!

ghostowl

You gotta make the new class exceed in level of the older class ( I think)

That way, you get all your old class's abilities back

Madhax

In addition to what the fellows above have stated, it's a general rule of thumb to dual INTO spellcasting classes, not OUT of them. A fighter->druid dual class is quite good (though very difficult to roll good stats for), while a druid->fighter isn't considered as powerful.

Shapeshifter into Fighter? I guess you'll get a strong werewolf form out of the deal, but the build seems bad to me on paper. You would probably need to wait until level 13 Shapeshifter before dualling in order to get the Greater Werewolf form, which is pretty strong but only hits at a +2 enchantment level. For enemies requiring a higher level of enchantment to damage, you'll be playing as a fighter that cannot wear armor. Capping the Druid's casting level early and preventing the Fighter from being able to choose a kit makes this a stinker in my eyes.

I suppose you could do an early-level dual for BGEE only, with no intent to take it to BG2? A Shapeshifter that duals at level 7 can get to level 8 fighter within BGEE if my math is correct, leaving you with a fairly powerful werewolf. Doesn't seem worth the hassle to me, though.

Corvino

Worth noting: you need a minimum of 15 in your first class primary stat and 17 in your secondary class primary stat to dual.

So to dual from kensai to druid you need 15 STR and 17 WIS & CHA. It catches a lot of people out.

Madhax

Corvino said:

Worth noting: you need a minimum of 15 in your first class primary stat and 17 in your secondary class primary stat to dual.

So to dual from kensai to druid you need 15 STR and 17 WIS & CHA. It catches a lot of people out.

Yeah, this is really rough. In BG games you can often stay at 15 strength and find something to permanently set it higher, but you'll want high Dexterity and Constitution in addition to those stats, as well as probably capping Wisdom at 18.

A powergamed Kensai -> Druid has stats looking like this:

15-18 STR
18 DEX
18 CON
3 INT
18 WIS
17 CHA

That's an 89 point roll for 15 STR, and you're stuck with a ludicrously low intelligence. Not that that'll hurt the build at all, but it makes roleplayers cringe. It may be possible to drop a point out of some of these and rely on the BG1 tomes.

Varwulf

That makes a LOT more sense. I guess it was a lot less noticeable when dualing a fighter to, say, a thief :P

sarevok57

in bg2 everytime I made a shapeshifter I always dualed him over to a fighter, and NEVER came out of the shapeshift form, plus bg2 had this wonderful bug where after awhile you stop using the shapeshift attack and use whatever weapon you were previously using, so being as that may, you would put staff of rynn/ staff of the woodlands in your weapon slot, 5 stars in staff, 2 stars in two handed weapon style, and now you have 5 attacks per round, dealing great damage with your (21 str I believe) and in SoA alone your fighter level will surpass your druid level which doesn't matter, as long as you stay in your greater werewolf form you would be set, and that is how you make that build great, plus eventually you can get hardiness and greater whirlwind

taltamir

Varwulf said:

So far I've attempted to dual class an Avenger Druid at level 10 to a Fighter. The first frustration I find is that the game teases you by making it seem like you can put points in katana and other weapons, but that isn't what this post is about. Basically, when my druid becomes a fighter, she no longer has any druid abilities. Eh? What's the point then? Now I have a neutered fighter who can only use druid weapons? Or am I missing something here?

You are missing nothing, dual classing is moronic. It is the ONLY reason I am playing a half-elf instead of a human.

Here is how dual classing works:
1. You start with class A and being a human.
2. When you reach a level of choice you hit the dual class button.
3. You are now a level 1 Class B. Your saves, weapon proficiency, spells, etc all reset to a level 1 of class B.
4. When your XP in class B exceeds the XP in class A, class A reactivates and you get the best features of each. (EDIT: correction, when your LEVEL in class B exceeds class A, not XP)

Traps:
A. Duplicate proficiency investments are not kept. If your class A had sword proficiency, than class B does not have sword proficiency unless you put points in it. But if you do you WASTED the duplicate points as they do not stack
B. For 90% of the game you are crippled and useless character
C. Depending on when you dual classed, the level cap can make it so that you will never, ever, be able able to recover your previous abilities.

The advantage of dual class is that can you dual out of fighter at level 11 (the last meaningful level) and afterwards 100% of XP goes towards your new class. So at max level a fighter/wizard dual class ends up with a higher wizard level than a multiclass fighter/wizard. At the cost of being a crippled wreck for 90% of the game.
It is an anti-fun feature and I can't imagine why anyone would punish themselves by playing as a dual class... oh you might cheat yourself a dual class, but not play as one normally.

However, you can use shadowkeeper save editing to easily make your humans into a multiclass.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/49865868

Corvino

@taltamir While it can be frustrating, it does force you to explore the features of your new class during the changeover period. You can also end up with a formidible combination of abilities without longterm downsides.

I ran a fighter 7 ->druid dual a couple of months back. While he was earning back his fighter levels I was able to use him as effective caster support for the party.

Was he as straight-up tough as he had been during this period? No. But he still added utility to the party, and was far from "crippled". It didn't even take him that long to get his levels back.

Dual classing isn't for everyone, and 90% of the time I prefer to multiclass. In some cases the tradeoff is worth it though, especially with fast-levelling second classes like thieves or druids.

elminster

taltamir said:

You are missing nothing, dual classing is moronic. It is the ONLY reason I am playing a half-elf instead of a human.

Here is how dual classing works:
1. You start with class A and being a human.
2. When you reach a level of choice you hit the dual class button.
3. You are now a level 1 Class B. Your saves, weapon proficiency, spells, etc all reset to a level 1 of class B.
4. When your XP in class B exceeds the XP in class A, class A reactivates and you get the best features of each.

Here is how it actually works.

1. You start with class A and being a human. Before you can dual class you have to have at least 17 in the main stat(s) of what you are dualing into as well as 15 for the main stat(s) of your current class (this is not necessarily the same thing as your prime requisite). For a fighter -> druid this would mean you'd need 15 strength, 17 wisdom, and 17 charisma.
2. When you reach level 2, or whatever level you want higher than that, you can dual class
3. You are now level 1 in class B. Your saves, weapon proficiency, spells, etc are set to a level 1 of class B.
4. When your level in class B exceeds your level in class A you will get back your abilities/proficiencies etc from class A. Particularly in the case of BG2 its possible to have a character combo where class A required more experience to get to their level than class B did to get to a level above that (like a fighter level 9 -> thief 10).

"For 90% of the game you are crippled and useless character"

Totally depends on the circumstances involved. Unless you dual class at a very high level relative to the game (so say level 7 in BG1, level 20 in BG2) you won't be "crippled" for that long. Even then the number of available wands and throwing potions in this game makes you hardly useless or crippled.

Finally, if anything qualifies for the "last meaningful level" for a fighter its level 13 (concerning dual classing at least).

ZanathKariashi

9 and 13 are cut offs for fighters in BG2 (7 recommended in BG1, but doesn't work dualing into a cleric since they take a lot of xp to hit 8). Last full HD and GM in 1 weapon, or that + final 1/2 attack from warrior levels. a 9 dual recovers quickly since most classes can hit 10 relatively easily (clerics taking the longest), while a 13 dual can take most of SoA, depending on party size and dualed class (Mages are the slow dog this time).

From an RP standpoint, in order for you to master a new class quickly, instead of taking years like reaching level 1 normally does, you have to be exceptionally gifted in stats (usually much higher then the class's minimums), and focus on using that class's abilities/fighting styles to the exclusion of all else. And once you've surpassed your old level of training, you can begin to merge your old skills with your new style without penalty.


In PnP, you never lose your old abilities, but using them causes you to gain no xp for that encounter, since you're relying on old knowledge instead of learning more about your new class. BG simply removing/locking them out was their way around that mechanic.

You lose your thac0 because while from a mechanical standpoint there's no real difference aside thac0 progression, thieves/mage/clerics/fighters all have different combat styles, and requires starting from scratch to master. And once you've become good enough, you can learn to merge their style and your old skills into something uniquely your own.

taltamir

elminster said:

Here is how it actually works.

Listing additional prerequisites and limitations (must be level 2, must have X stats, etc) is not making a correction.
the only 1 correction you made is on point 4, class B must exceed LEVEL of class A rather than XP of class A. Thank you for that

elminster said:

Finally, if anything qualifies for the "last meaningful level" for a fighter its level 13 (concerning dual classing at least).

I remembered the extra .05 attack being at 7 and 11, but 7 and 13 does make more sense as 1+6 = 7 and 7+6 = 13.
thanks for the correction

HugoRune

It's also absolutely incorrect that dual classing means that you play a crippled character for most of the game.

First, at least in BG2, the huge amount of XP that can be earned means that a character that starts over at level 1 actually becomes competent very quickly. So, at most it can be said that instead of playing the kind a character that you really want to play, say a mage who's also a decent fighter, you will fist play a fighter and then play a mage for most of the game and only toward the end get to play what you really want.

Second, even this only applies if you're dualling late to max out your first class. In the case of the fighter->mage example, if you wait till level 13 for the last 1/2 attack, you will indeed only regain your fighter abilities at the very end of SoA. That might be ok for some people who are playing with an eye towards ToB but not worth it for most (I've never done this and I doubt I ever will). Dualling at level 9 is much less of a hassle, still makes you a competent fighter and lets you get to level 17 as a mage without ToB. You won't even be very noticably behind your other party members as a mage.

But where dual classing really shines, imo, is when you actually just want to play a single class and just get a smattering of another class for some added versatility. Want to play a mage? Why not start out as a fighter and dual as soon as you wake up in Chateau Irenicus? You will regain your fighter abilities almost as soon as you surface in Atkathla and you will catch up in level to your other party members almost as quickly. For this you'll have better Thac0, 7 levels of fighter hp plus warrior CON bonus, exceptional strength, the ability to use any weapon you like plus specialization/mastery boni (together with fighter 7 that means an extra attack), the ability to wear armors, and more impotatntly helmets, plus all other warrior only items. If you started out as a Berserker, you'll have 2 uses of enrage for some usful immunities when you need them.

Or start as a thief and be competent in open locks and disarming traps or pick pocket and detect illustion or whatever else strikes your fancy. Be a Swashbuckler and gain some (minor) AC, Thac0 and damage bonus, plus the ability to specialize and dual wield competently on top of that. What you are giving up are some racial boni and the ability to play a specialist wizard. That's not insigificant but may be very worth it depending on your play style.

In general, whenever you are thinking about playing an unkitted, single class mage, cleric, thief or druid, dual classing at the start of the game will make your character more powerful and versatile and you won't even notice the downtime.

Corvino

The best time to dual, especially to a mage, is early in BG2. You get XP handed to you from all directions.

You can get a long way towards level 8 as a mage purely by scribing every spell available around Waukeen's promenade!

taltamir

HugoRune said:

It's also absolutely incorrect that dual classing means that you play a crippled character for most of the game.

It is more certainly true.
Unless you dual class very early in which case you get very little benefit from your first class.

Lord_Tansheron

@taltamir: It depends entirely of which class you run, when you dual it exactly, and how you play. If you dual in BG2 at lvl9 (arguably the most popular level), you will regain levels *very* quickly. With sufficient meta knowledge and strategy, you can have your old class back in about an hour, which is a very small fraction of the game.

Also, even during that time you are not useless or crippled by any means. You still have a lot of HP and a considerably higher level of gear than you would otherwise have. Are you weaker than before? Absolutely. It's a world of trade-offs, nothing comes free. But "crippled"? No.

The only time I'd agree even just a little would be higher level duals, at level 13+. Those can be a challenge to plan correctly, and are definitely a pain for less experienced players, or players unwilling to go with considerable amounts of meta knowledge and saving up of experience.

TJ_Hooker

taltamir said:

HugoRune said:

It's also absolutely incorrect that dual classing means that you play a crippled character for most of the game.

It is more certainly true.
Unless you dual class very early in which case you get very little benefit from your first class.

Due to the exponential progression of xp, your character really won't be crippled for all that long, even if you dual at a high level. If you're at a high level, you're probably at a point in the game where you're getting large xp rewards, so a low level character will advance quite quickly. It probably won't take long at all until that character is only a level or 2 behind other characters in your party (which I would hardly call crippled). You don't necessarily have to have regained your old abilities in order to be meaningfully contributing to the party.

Edit: I was thinking more of BG1 with this, in particular the exponential xp progression bit. The xp progression at higher levels (like in BG2) is linear.

HugoRune

taltamir said:

HugoRune said:

It's also absolutely incorrect that dual classing means that you play a crippled character for most of the game.

It is more certainly true.
Unless you dual class very early in which case you get very little benefit from your first class.

In BG2 the earliest level it's even possible to dual is level 7, if you start as a fighter. As I've already mentioned, that gives you much higher hp, better Thac0, exceptional strength, an extra half attack, more weapon proficiencies plus the ability to specialize and access to warrior items. If you're starting as a thief, the earliest level will be 8, which allows you to get 2 skills up to 100%. All of that almost without any downside because you'll have those abilities back very shortly after Chateau Irenicus. To say that this is "very little benefit" is frankly ridiculous.

boudica

Madhax said:

Corvino said:

Worth noting: you need a minimum of 15 in your first class primary stat and 17 in your secondary class primary stat to dual.

So to dual from kensai to druid you need 15 STR and 17 WIS & CHA. It catches a lot of people out.

Yeah, this is really rough. In BG games you can often stay at 15 strength and find something to permanently set it higher, but you'll want high Dexterity and Constitution in addition to those stats, as well as probably capping Wisdom at 18.

A powergamed Kensai -> Druid has stats looking like this:

15-18 STR
18 DEX
18 CON
3 INT
18 WIS
17 CHA

That's an 89 point roll for 15 STR, and you're stuck with a ludicrously low intelligence. Not that that'll hurt the build at all, but it makes roleplayers cringe. It may be possible to drop a point out of some of these and rely on the BG1 tomes.

I just rolled a 94 point kensai and a 93 point kensai,and was thinking of putting the first as kensai(level 17)--> mage (katanas) and the second as kensai(17)--->druid and use frost brand and later belm and the improved spectral band+5

I like the high level summons for druids, but the kensage can use robes of vecna. they are both overpowered characters

the kensai that I am going to dual to druid at level 17 starts with the following stats(93 points to start, will play through bg1 twice for the tomes)

18/86->20 str
18-->20 dex
18--> 20 con
15--> 21 wis
8--> 10 int
16--> 18 cha

will put points into 2 weapon fighting and scimitar and will use frost brand, belm and improved spectral brand.

Unfortunately a true neutral character cannot use twinkle, which is a pity, as it would make a great weapon for a kensai/druid.

I'd be tempted to run through bg1 one more time for an even higher point character with more tomes.

21 str
21 dexterity
21 con
24 wisdom
11 int
19 cha

Lord_Tansheron

There is no reason to dual at level 17. Fighters gain no significant bonuses after level 13. Kensai do get their kit bonuses, but it's not worth it to trade those off for not only less caster levels, but a *significantly* more annoying leveling process.

Druids in particular have highly non-linear leveling curves. As a druid, you need as much XP for levels 1 to 14 as you need for 14 to 15. Mages don't have such a large jump, but they still need considerable amounts of XP to level.

If you wait until lvl17 to dual, you'll end up playing non-trivial portions of the game without one class or the other, essentially making the whole point of being two classes somewhat moot.

I recommend you dual a fighter (i.e. Kensai or Berserker) at levels 9 or 13. Level 9 will give you maximum hit dice, an extra proficiency point, and an extra use of your kit ability (Kai or Berserker Rage), while 13 will give you an extra +1/2 APR and yet another use of your kit ability.

Both levels can be regained fairly quickly in BG2, though 13 may require some patience - not nearly as much as level 17, though! Personally, I think that 9 is better than 13; the 1/2 APR will usually be an almost unnoticeable improvement, while earlier dualing gives you noticeably more/earlier spellcasting options. Your mileage may vary with mod setups and party composition, though. The smaller the party, the easier XP is to come by.

elminster

The only benefit you get out of dual classing a fighter at level 17 is you get slightly better saving throws. Its not enough of a benefit though given the extensive time it will take you to get to level 18 with another class (particularly druids).

FinneousPJ

I don't see the advantage of Kensai->Druid over Berserker.

Eudaemonium

Berserker is better mechanically, I think. I like Kensai>Druid for the RP flavour, mainly, since you can orient the character around concepts like balance and order.

Lord_Tansheron

Kensai deals more damage, Berserker is more resilient. Personally, I prefer playing more offensively (especially since Barkskin and Iron Skins make armor nearly superfluous anyway). The Berserker Rage immunities are undeniably handy, though. If you don't want to "abuse" meta knowledge too much, it's a very valid choice, and even if you do it's great to have in a pinch.

The choice between offense vs. defense in this case is not something that can be objectively decided I think. Much of their respective value depends on personal setups, play style, and preferences.

Varwulf

Another thing I forgot to ask (though I think I already know the answer), so if one were to dual a druid into a fighter, or say a fighter into a druid, while the 'fighter' portion is 'inactive', he would have to use druid weapons but when the fighter portion becomes active again, how does the game decide which weapons are or are not usable for the character?

Thanks again!

Lord_Tansheron

@Varwulf: The game works weird with weapons. So far, the model seems to be twofold: restrictions based on "ability" (e.g. mages aren't strong/skilled enough to use 2h swords) and based on "conviction" (e.g. clerics could use swords, but they refuse to because of their faith).

If there is an "ability" restriction, then the dual class will combine the weapons allowed to each class, and essentially allow you to use all of them. For example, if you dual a fighter (can use 2h) to a mage (cannot use 2h), then you *can* use 2h once you regain your fighter levels.

The "conviction" restriction works differently, though: it remains in place even if you dual to a class without that restriction. So a fighter (can use swords) dualed to a cleric (cannot use swords) will *not* be able to use swords, even after fighter levels are regained. These type of "conviction" restrictions are usually the ones imposed by kits (e.g. kensai = no ranged weapon), with the exception of clerics who are an entire class. Note that the restrictions usually apply even while the class is inactive; a kensai dualed to a mage, for example, *cannot* use ranged weapons even while the kensai levels are inactive.

There are however some inconsistencies in that system. I am not entirely certain how druids are handled, for example; tentatively, I would think that they can use everything a fighter can use once you regain the fighter levels. Before that, they are limited to whatever druids can use. In terms of armor, I think it is the same - this however is somewhat inconsistent with druid philosophy, as it is should be a "conviction"-based restriction.

I very rarely play druids, so maybe someone with more knowledge as to what is actually allowed in terms of weapons/armor can chime in. I might be wrong.

elminster

Lord_Tansheron said:

@Varwulf: The game works weird with weapons. So far, the model seems to be twofold: restrictions based on "ability" (e.g. mages aren't strong/skilled enough to use 2h swords) and based on "conviction" (e.g. clerics could use swords, but they refuse to because of their faith).

If there is an "ability" restriction, then the dual class will combine the weapons allowed to each class, and essentially allow you to use all of them. For example, if you dual a fighter (can use 2h) to a mage (cannot use 2h), then you *can* use 2h once you regain your fighter levels.

The "conviction" restriction works differently, though: it remains in place even if you dual to a class without that restriction. So a fighter (can use swords) dualed to a cleric (cannot use swords) will *not* be able to use swords, even after fighter levels are regained. These type of "conviction" restrictions are usually the ones imposed by kits (e.g. kensai = no ranged weapon), with the exception of clerics who are an entire class. Note that the restrictions usually apply even while the class is inactive; a kensai dualed to a mage, for example, *cannot* use ranged weapons even while the kensai levels are inactive.

There are however some inconsistencies in that system. I am not entirely certain how druids are handled, for example; tentatively, I would think that they can use everything a fighter can use once you regain the fighter levels. Before that, they are limited to whatever druids can use. In terms of armor, I think it is the same - this however is somewhat inconsistent with druid philosophy, as it is should be a "conviction"-based restriction.

I very rarely play druids, so maybe someone with more knowledge as to what is actually allowed in terms of weapons/armor can chime in. I might be wrong.

Fighter/Druids (along with fighter -> druids and druid -> fighters) are like clerics. They are restricted and can only use the following weapons: Scimitars, clubs, daggers (throwing and melee), quarterstaves, spears, slings, and darts.

Lord_Tansheron

@elminster: thanks, that should clear things up then!

Varwulf

Yes indeed, thanks for the clarification I have been experimenting with dual class builds looking for a rather nasty, unique combination. Seems druids will unfortunately suffer a bit too much to be the amazing uber dual class I am looking for, but I'll keep experimenting.

Lord_Tansheron

@Varwulf: I don't think there is a better dual class combination than Kensai->Mage. What are you looking for specifically?