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Mod/Feature Request - Dexterity to hit and damage

kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
It's pretty much simple the request, but i don't know if the mod/feature itself will be.

Can Dexterity ingame be changes so Hit and Damage would be increased based on dexterity instead of strengh? Can this be limited to some classes? Can at least the to hit chance be defined by dexterity when this stats is greater than strengh?

Comments

  • ICNICN Member Posts: 61
    That would be giving Dexterity too much in most cases I think. It's already responsible for AC, and by giving it to hit bonuses for all weapons (not just ranged), strength would become an even more easily dumped stat than it is now. I could see it fitting into the Swashbuckler kit however, showing them as relying more on finesse than brute force.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    It's a question of balance, not all classes should have this feature, it's to be an advantage.
  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    I think it's kind of retarded to begin with that you don't get a to hit bonus from high dexterity so it might be a good idea to give it to one or two kits who clearly depend on dexterity more than strength.
  • ICNICN Member Posts: 61
    @kamuizin Oh sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your post. With the limitation of being class specific, I could see it for Thieves or Bards or some of their kits. I'm just guessing here, but it might be possible to use some of the same code that makes it so that Clerics and Druids get bonus spells from Wisdom, while Rangers and Paladins do not.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    IMO, completely taking the hit bonus from str, and giving it to dex would make more sense. And would only require a quick 2da tweak to set-up.

    str is already the most valuable stat in the game, even though it is easily replaced by spells/items, due to adding a ridiculous amount of damage to hits and adding to carry wieght, and giving anyone the ability to bash some locks (in addition to adding hit). All of which apply to everyone, warriors can just get a little extra at creation, but once you can boost to 19+, it's equally effective to all.

    Most classes, only get a minor AC bonus from putting points in dex (thieves get the most benefit, while bards/rangers/monks get a minor benefit extra benefit). And the stat itself is also missing both it's bonus to saves (same spells that would have a reflex save in 3rd edition) and reduction of dual-wielding penalty. (an 18 dex character with * two-weapon style should have a 0/-2 penalty.)

    16 +0 hit / +1 Missile hit
    17 +1 hit / +2 Missile hit
    18 +2 hit / +3 Missile hit
    19 +3 hit / +4 Missile hit
    21 +4 hit / +5 Missile hit
    23 +5 hit / +6 Missile hit
    24 +6 hit / +7 Missile hit
    25 +7 hit / +8 Missile hit

    (Just so no one misunderstands the chart...Missile gets a +1 bonus over melee hit at every stage, and gets it's first bonus 1 stat sooner).


    Being Dexterous would allow you to hit more often, but you're not going to do more damage. A high str/low dex fighter is generally characterized as someone who swings wildly and inaccurately, but if that hit manages to land, you're F'd. While a high dex/low str fighter bleeds you to death with precise, but average strikes.

    While I am usually a stickler for staying as close to PnP rules possible, this is one change even I would get behind, because it makes good sense and would help give dex a little more value to non-thieves, due to the 2 powerful benefits it's currently missing that it should have. (I personally find spending points on just small AC a waste unless I've got points to burn due to all my other important stats being covered).
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Yes! I agree! I love the idea of a fast and skillful warrior and a proper trade-off compared to being strong and heavily armoured. Yet the BG (and presumably D&D) systems compels your fighters to put on as much armour as possible, and somehow not lose any agility. Somehow both striking accuracy AND damage is governed by Str?!

    Why not govern damage bonuses with Str and THAC0 with Dex? That would seem sensible and balanced for all classes except perhaps casters, for whom Dex probably just reflects their ability to dodge incoming attacks.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited September 2013

    str is already the most valuable stat in the game, even though it is easily replaced by spells/items, due to adding a ridiculous amount of damage to hits and adding to carry wieght, and giving anyone the ability to bash some locks (in addition to adding hit). All of which apply to everyone, warriors can just get a little extra at creation, but once you can boost to 19+, it's equally effective to all.

    Most classes, only get a minor AC bonus from putting points in dex (thieves get the most benefit, while bards/rangers/monks get a minor benefit extra benefit). And the stat itself is also missing both it's bonus to saves (same spells that would have a reflex save in 3rd edition) and reduction of dual-wielding penalty. (an 18 dex character with * two-weapon style should have a 0/-2 penalty.)

    I've never found the benefits from DEX to be lacking, compared to STR or otherwise. As far as the STR benefits go, the ability to bash locks isn't all that great because you really only need one source of lock-opening in a party, so having a thief or a single character with high STR will do, and carrying weight is a matter of convenience more than anything, at least as far as I'm concerned.

    I typically only care about high STR for my front-liners, while I like having high DEX on everyone in my party. The front-liners benefit from the extra AC, and it lets the people in the back have a better chance of actually hitting something (and the extra AC doesn't hurt for them either, seeing as how they'll usually have low HP). At least in BG1 anyways. I always hear people talking about how AC doesn't matter anymore once you get to late game BG2 (I don't remember whether or not I found this to be the case for myself), so I guess DEX might be less useful then.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited September 2013

    Yes! I agree! I love the idea of a fast and skillful warrior and a proper trade-off compared to being strong and heavily armoured. Yet the BG (and presumably D&D) systems compels your fighters to put on as much armour as possible, and somehow not lose any agility. Somehow both striking accuracy AND damage is governed by Str?!

    Why not govern damage bonuses with Str and THAC0 with Dex? That would seem sensible and balanced for all classes except perhaps casters, for whom Dex probably just reflects their ability to dodge incoming attacks.

    Drizzt comes in mind? The novel retract this issue so well that sometimes i think the novel choose to ignore the game sets to be cool :)!


    By the way, for a late game SoA and ToB, a dexterity based to hit, and to some classes to hit and damage, would make a nice overpower control in the game, as strengh is too much easy raised in the game (belts of giant, gloves, various potions, many priest spells... and there goes on).
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    If you mod a sword in NI and change his melee ability to ranged and boost its THACO to offset the melee penalty for ranged weapons, you'll get a sword which determines its to hit roll by dexterity. I guess it's not exactly what you're looking for though.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited September 2013
    Pecca said:

    If you mod a sword in NI and change his melee ability to ranged and boost its THACO to offset the melee penalty for ranged weapons, you'll get a sword which determines its to hit roll by dexterity. I guess it's not exactly what you're looking for though.

    I think that having a ranged weapon equipped in melee also gives the enemy a bonus to hit and/or damage against you, making his option even less attractive.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Pecca said:

    If you mod a sword in NI and change his melee ability to ranged and boost its THACO to offset the melee penalty for ranged weapons, you'll get a sword which determines its to hit roll by dexterity. I guess it's not exactly what you're looking for though.

    I think the having a ranged weapon equipped in melee also gives the enemy a bonus to hit and/or damage against you, making his option even less attractive.
    In that case I think you can also give the sword bonus AC against melee weapons to offset that penalty.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    Dex never matters....ever. It's just a tiny bonus that only matters up to a VERY quickly reached point. People who think it does are just min/maxers who want to stack every possible modifier without realizing it just isn't needed.

    This became quite clear to me after I stopped caring what my stat rolls were and just hit accept after rolling once. The experience doesn't change, except you REALLY start missing those high str values when you're constantly running out of weight with only 3 characters in BG1 have enough to be pack mules.


    Just because you find something less useful doesn't change the fact that str gives more benefits that affect every class, then any other stat in the game. And all of them being immediately tangible and useful. And don't lie...unless you're doing the same thing as me, your character is ALWAYS going to have the highest str in the game...why? Because it's the best stat (adds a huge amount of damage to thrown weapons that can benefit, allows you to carry tons of weight that allows you to sell everything you come across and buy stuff sooner, allows you to use heavier armor/weapons, and allows you to get into doors/chests when you lack a thief or they're not good enough to pick the lock yet).

    Dex just gives AC...which is only useful prior to getting armor/items that can raise it higher. The moment you hit 0, dex becomes worth less and less for each point beyond, and simply stopping damage or having enough hp to soak it up becomes much more important, very few enemies in the game have significant amounts of thac0, and you're much more likely to be hit by crits then normal attacks barring enemies who will hit you most of the time anyway.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Not so worthless, but dexterity has a common limit. A 10 dexterity character will have a crap of AC, but put it 17 or 18 and you don't need any other reason to improve it, from 18 to 19 there's no bonus, on 20 dex you get +1 AC bonus and in 21 if i'm not wrong also there's no bonus.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    Keep in mind....most of the character Drizzt is fighting against are low level/HD characters. And his fighting style is always described as dancing, wearing his opponents down until he can find a weak point to exploit with a critical strike. Obviously with less skilled opponents dropping sooner.

    Keep in mind, that even among career soldiers and mercenaries it's EXTREMELY rare to encounter troops above 5th level. Adventuring is dangerous work, and non-adventuring professions have very limited options for advancement, with only bards (practicing their thief skills/researching new spells), mages (researching new spells), or thieves (practicing their theif skills in daily life) able to advance while in a non-adventuring profession. Warriors need frequent new martial challenges and clerics/druids need progressively more important duties for their god, that simply aren't found tending a chapel or practicing in a training yard.

    mage/clerics/druids can earn some xp by crafting items, but they're expensive and take a long time to craft relative to the xp value they gain from it, making it less efficient then a mage just researching new spells, and unless you have a ready market for and can afford your wares, you'll eventually have to leave to earn more money).

    That is actually up held in BG...very few enemies break level 10. Hell the vast majority of monsters are 8 or less with 4 or less being extremely common.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    This remember that implement book for oriental classes, where the oriental version of kensai need to make a daily train of one to two hours per day to be able to level up when they get the needed XP.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    Dex never matters....ever. It's just a tiny bonus that only matters up to a VERY quickly reached point. People who think it does are just min/maxers who want to stack every possible modifier without realizing it just isn't needed.

    This became quite clear to me after I stopped caring what my stat rolls were and just hit accept after rolling once. The experience doesn't change, except you REALLY start missing those high str values when you're constantly running out of weight with only 3 characters in BG1 have enough to be pack mules.


    Just because you find something less useful doesn't change the fact that str gives more benefits that affect every class, then any other stat in the game. And all of them being immediately tangible and useful. And don't lie...unless you're doing the same thing as me, your character is ALWAYS going to have the highest str in the game...why? Because it's the best stat (adds a huge amount of damage to thrown weapons that can benefit, allows you to carry tons of weight that allows you to sell everything you come across and buy stuff sooner, allows you to use heavier armor/weapons, and allows you to get into doors/chests when you lack a thief or they're not good enough to pick the lock yet).

    Dex just gives AC...which is only useful prior to getting armor/items that can raise it higher. The moment you hit 0, dex becomes worth less and less for each point beyond, and simply stopping damage or having enough hp to soak it up becomes much more important, very few enemies in the game have significant amounts of thac0, and you're much more likely to be hit by crits then normal attacks barring enemies who will hit you most of the time anyway.

    Dex gives AC, "to hit" modifiers for ranged attacks, and initiative bonuses. And of course, there's the skill bonuses to thieves, bards, rangers, and monks. And a -4 bonus to AC ain't nothing to sneeze at (especially since for AD&D 2E rules, there's no "Max Dex bonus" for the armor you wear).

    Now, I'll admit that Gygax really gave fighters a big bonus with "percentile strength" - the damage bonuses get insanely stupid (+6?) and require every fighter to have 18/XX strength to be worth his/her blade. But what does high strength give a non-fighter? Not much. Carrying capacity doesn't go bonkers before percentile strength, and the combat bonuses don't begin until 16 and are only +1/+2 at 18 strength (i.e., compared to a +3 to hit bonus for ranged attacks/-4 AC from an 18 dexterity). So, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on strength for non-fighters (not that I'd use it as a dump stat, but a mage can get by fine with 9-10).

    As far as items go, there's plenty of girdles of XYZ giant strength to raise STR into the stratosphere, and those work for non-fighters who can't get 18/XX strength.

    And if you need some carrying capacity, try the pack mule mod. Every adventurer needs a beast of burden!

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Exactly my point.

    You entire post did nothing but illustrated exactly why all to-hit bonuses should be moved to dex.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    In fact, any RPG computer game not bind to a system normally define to hit chances with dexterity (or agility, it depend of the game resources).
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    edited September 2013
    It makes sense for the most part that STR governs To Hit, because strength allows a person to be able to control a weapon's momentum and maneuver the weapon effectively, quickly changing its direction and angle and such. However, I do agree with kamuizin when it comes to small and/or light weapons, like short swords and daggers, and maybe even medium sized weapons like long swords and scimitars. If small/light weapons' To Hit were governed by DEX, then thieves with lower STR wouldn't be as screwed over in melee. This would be kind of like the 3E feat Weapon Finesse. In 4E there is also a feat in one of the supplemental books that allow Elves to use DEX to calculate To Hit for long swords, though I think it should be available for all medium sized races.

    In short, I agree with this for some weapons, but not all.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Sorry heavy hit with a 2 handed sword can break through armor and rupture obstacles, but what simulate a hit done in the soft spot of a full plate, well balanced to hit the weak point of the enemy is clearly dexterity.

    The minimum strengh of each weapon define if the character has the capacity to use that weapon and thus fill the control weapon weight that you mentioned at first.

    For small and medium weapons, the 3.5Ed made the weapon finesse feat that does exactly this, use dexterity to define the hit chance, i would be satisfied if all medium sized weapons and lower got the weapon finesse, at least for some classes and with special exceptions for kensais and katanas for example.
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