I look at it this way. I don't give a flying fudge what the "characters" like. *I'M* the one who is playing the game. *I'M* the one who PAID for the game. If I want them to them to paint themselves with apple butter while I am just an innocent onlicker then that's what they should do as far as I'm concerned :P
@Nic_Mercy, I'M also PAID for the game, and I'M also the one PLAYING the game, and if every NPC hitting me break my roleplay, then they shoudn't as far as i'm concerned. You see, harsh behavior and egocentric beliefs would take us nowhere.
Romances being open to all races and genders works best IMO because then no one gets left out. Consider Dragon Age 1. Sure it offered same gender romances... but in the case of the males I did not find my only option appealing and found Alistair far more compatible with my personality and tastes. Thankfully a mod allowed me to romance him and barring a few odd pronouns, I was way more satisfied with Alistair than I ever was with Zevran. It's not about just having AN option. Its about having an option you actually LIKE.
This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better.
Zevran is a hell of a nice character, funny and with an awesome background. You can still romance Alistair if you want, with an woman main char or with mods, as you did.
The result of open romances was specially better displayed in Dragon Age 2, where all the characters, including the ones we liked on Dragon age (Anders for example) become dools totally absent of personality, where the only difference was the skin, name and a swallow personality that only define them as naughty, serene, enraged... without much cover for it.
The more restrictions the more people can enjoy the content. It's really that simple. The "everyone being bi is unrealistic" excuse doesn't fly. You shoot fire from your hands for goodness sake! Are you really going to pull the "realism" card???
You see as an excuse what go against your beliefs, well don't take as an excuse but as an statement of truth cos that's what it is. Argue that for being a supernatural world everything should be possible to enforce you idea of "all bi" is a hell of a fallacy. D&D has a huge system and rule sets that define "how" we soot fire from our hands, and you just discarded it as another half done RPG made in 5 minutes. The proposal of the system is to present a fantastic world, not an bacchanal.
Honestly one day I'd love to see a game that has a prologue where the player is asked a series of questions to tailor the game experience (npc's, romances and all) to that players tastes so the player can have some say the type of experience they have in the game world within the context of the story the designers have created. I'd find such a game quite intriguing and it would probably have a ton of replayability with that level of customization built in.
I don't expect the original romances to change. But I'd prefer new romances to be more inclusive of varying types of players.
For me, i would prefer new exclusive homossexual romances instead of a new set of all bi NPCs, that would provide for the taste of forbidden, giving homosexualist defenders a bit of exclusivity, that's probally the core of the presented problem.
@Kaigen, yes that, and put far more eloquently than I could have managed. I think once you get to the stage of making a romancable NPC a ' one size fits all, cookie cutter' entity you then lose the essence of that character, in which case you might as well be playing The Sims,or something. I've no doubt making a vanilla romance to a same sex character is doable but itsomething that will only ever happen via a mod because, aside from contract restrictions it would be one heck so a lot of work, unless, in the case of Ano, you're a bloke who likes being referred to as "Fair Lady", in which case, fill yer boots!
I would personally not enjoy every npc, every gender and every race. And too many options would make a bit difficult.
Charname: "now I have to break up with 4 people in a nice way to keep them in my party while I date the 5th person."
That would just be too strange in every play through.
That said I enjoyed the first time I played bg2. I didn't know about the romances and all of the sudden ano picked a flower. I was a bit flabbergasted. Did this guy just flirt with me? Figuring it out and finding the other romances I just found a reason for new playthroughs.
But if others prefer to go all in on this - it's your game and you can set up the rules and mods as you like. That is the universal strength of being charname.
Honestly, don't judge it unless you've read it. The official books - especially the whole Imoen / Bhodi thing were written for cheap thrills. There was so much depth written into the story that by the point this happens it's entirely believable.
And am I supposed to believe the fanfic was written for any other reason than "Anomen is like, so hot and troubled and Sarevok is like, so hot and troubled so it would be like, so hot and troubled if they had a hot and troubled gay romance"? That, too, is a "cheap thrill", just for other audience.
I do not doubt that it made a lot of sense. Give me 100+ chapters and I will rewrite Aerie as a cynical bloodthirsty murderer, who is only putting up the act.
Okay okay, I admit it, I am biased against fanfics in general. I withdraw from the discussion.
Honestly, don't judge it unless you've read it. The official books - especially the whole Imoen / Bhodi thing were written for cheap thrills. There was so much depth written into the story that by the point this happens it's entirely believable.
And am I supposed to believe the fanfic was written for any other reason than "Anomen is like, so hot and troubled and Sarevok is like, so hot and troubled so it would be like, so hot and troubled if they had a hot and troubled gay romance"? That, too, is a "cheap thrill", just for other audience.
I do not doubt that it made a lot of sense. Give me 100+ chapters and I will rewrite Aerie as a cynical bloodthirsty murderer, who is only putting up the act.
Okay okay, I admit it, I am biased against fanfics in general. I withdraw from the discussion.
No, really, it wasn't. It wasn't written for the p0rn/slash value because there no more than you would find in the game romance dialogues. Hardly Fifty Shades of Twilight Smut. The focus was very much the relationship, but you know if you're not someone who's into fanfic nothing I say will convince you otherwise. But the thing about RPGing in general is that it inspires creativity, and fanfic is an extension of that & the thing about Baldur's Gate fic writers is that they're generally quite a talented, eloquent bunch.
You are wrong regarding DA:2. The romances differ as much as the ones in BG:2 do. You have characters who start a several year long relationship and even move in with the player during chapter 2 (A and M) and others who only really want to be friends with benefits and only in the final chapter admit having deeper feelings (F and I). And on top of that each romance had two very different paths. Friendship with Anders is a totally different experience compared to pursuing the romance on the rivalry path. Really saying that making all romance-able NPCs available to both sexes results in all of them having the same personality is the same as saying that Aerie, Viconia and Jaheria have the same personality because all three of them romance any male human.
This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better.
Zevran is a hell of a nice character, funny and with an awesome background. You can still romance Alistair if you want, with an woman main char or with mods, as you did.
The result of open romances was specially better displayed in Dragon Age 2, where all the characters, including the ones we liked on Dragon age (Anders for example) become dools totally absent of personality, where the only difference was the skin, name and a swallow personality that only define them as naughty, serene, enraged... without much cover for it.
Speaking as a heterosexual guy, Zevran was probably my favourite romance in DAO. I thought it was the most nuanced and intricate with more depth-of-character than the others.
As for DA2, I think the main culprit was just a lack of *stuff* than the much-accused 'everyone is bisexual' accusation that gets thrown at it. I fail to see why gender-restrictions would have made the characters better in any way, since you basically had to know it was the case to even realise it. The issue with DA2 is simply that it was a rushed game that needed significantly more content.
But then, I also disagree that the characters were shallow, since I think they were probably deeper than DAOs, if significantly less likeable in a lot of situations.
I'm not sure I want to get sucked into a debate about sexuality in video games, but I did want to respond to @Nic_Mercy regarding Alistair:
I agree. Alistair is a much, much more attractive character than Zevran. But part of his character is that he's straight. And just because you want him to be a romance option for men doesn't mean he should be. I mean, if there's a straight guy in your life who's very good looking and you get along with, you aren't going to try to press him into being with you. Even more so if you're supposed to be friends with him: In my opinion, if you're friends with a straight guy, those kind of thoughts shouldn't even be entering your mind in the first place.
To be honest, I thought the friendship between a male PC and Alistair was extremely well-done, and I don't think it needs tweaking for gay players. Yes, I think we should have had a better option than Zevran in the original game, but at least there was SOMETHING. I just romanced Morrigan. Actually, once I romanced Zevran by accident because of the being nice = romance thing.
I don't necessarily mind the "Everyone is bi" thing - I think it was well-done in DA2. I do definitely prefer games with characters who aren't all bi, though, because it makes them more realistic. Like I said somewhere else before, I felt like Isabella was a much more believable (and likable) character than Zevran. Zevran, I got the feeling he would bang anything, even my Mabari. Isabella just liked sex.
I just noticed something that I never noticed before, in all these years, about all four of the original romances in BG2 - every one of them is some form of cleric.
Until I finally came in and read this thread, seeing that it is about romances again, I thought the topic had to do with who is the best cleric to take in BG2.
I guess the gods want everybody to "be fruitful, and multiply".
I just noticed something that I never noticed before, in all these years, about all four of the original romances in BG2 - every one of them is some form of cleric.
Until I finally came in and read this thread, seeing that it is about romances again, I thought the topic had to do with who is the best cleric to take in BG2.
I guess the gods want everybody to "be fruitful, and multiply".
LOL
Maybe they thought, "if everyone is going to be dragging a cleric around anyway, we might as well make it interesting."
On DA2: I actually enjoyed the romances (and the game in general) but it didn't feel like all of the characters were written with being bisexual in mind. Aside from Isabella, who makes her proclivities clear, the others felt like bisexuality was a shortcut bolted on to make things easier rather than an organic part of their character. I remember thinking that the only time Merril indicated any interest in other women was when Female!Hawke was flirting with her, and IIRC Anders only brings up his previous homosexual relationship if he's in a relationship with Male!Hawke. Ironically, my main complaint was what @Eudaemonium brought up, that "you basically had to know it was the case to even realise it." It made the characters feel a little bit more shallow, to me at least. Though I guess I still prefer that to ME2's "gay people? What gay people?"
I look at it this way. I don't give a flying fudge what the "characters" like. *I'M* the one who is playing the game. *I'M* the one who PAID for the game. If I want them to them to paint themselves with apple butter while I am just an innocent onlicker then that's what they should do as far as I'm concerned :P
@Nic_Mercy, I'M also PAID for the game, and I'M also the one PLAYING the game, and if every NPC hitting me break my roleplay, then they shoudn't as far as i'm concerned. You see, harsh behavior and egocentric beliefs would take us nowhere.
Romances being open to all races and genders works best IMO because then no one gets left out. Consider Dragon Age 1. Sure it offered same gender romances... but in the case of the males I did not find my only option appealing and found Alistair far more compatible with my personality and tastes. Thankfully a mod allowed me to romance him and barring a few odd pronouns, I was way more satisfied with Alistair than I ever was with Zevran. It's not about just having AN option. Its about having an option you actually LIKE.
This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better.
Zevran is a hell of a nice character, funny and with an awesome background. You can still romance Alistair if you want, with an woman main char or with mods, as you did.
The result of open romances was specially better displayed in Dragon Age 2, where all the characters, including the ones we liked on Dragon age (Anders for example) become dools totally absent of personality, where the only difference was the skin, name and a swallow personality that only define them as naughty, serene, enraged... without much cover for it.
The more restrictions the more people can enjoy the content. It's really that simple. The "everyone being bi is unrealistic" excuse doesn't fly. You shoot fire from your hands for goodness sake! Are you really going to pull the "realism" card???
You see as an excuse what go against your beliefs, well don't take as an excuse but as an statement of truth cos that's what it is. Argue that for being a supernatural world everything should be possible to enforce you idea of "all bi" is a hell of a fallacy. D&D has a huge system and rule sets that define "how" we soot fire from our hands, and you just discarded it as another half done RPG made in 5 minutes. The proposal of the system is to present a fantastic world, not an bacchanal.
Honestly one day I'd love to see a game that has a prologue where the player is asked a series of questions to tailor the game experience (npc's, romances and all) to that players tastes so the player can have some say the type of experience they have in the game world within the context of the story the designers have created. I'd find such a game quite intriguing and it would probably have a ton of replayability with that level of customization built in.
I don't expect the original romances to change. But I'd prefer new romances to be more inclusive of varying types of players.
For me, i would prefer new exclusive homossexual romances instead of a new set of all bi NPCs, that would provide for the taste of forbidden, giving homosexualist defenders a bit of exclusivity, that's probally the core of the presented problem.
You have a great deal of nerve thinking you can speak for me when you say: "This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better. ". You assume you know my reasons and motivations and likes and dislikes.
I am not interested in a "taste of the forbidden". Such a concept makes absolutely no sense to me. Being with someone of the same gender is not "forbidden", "wrong", "odd" or any other word you'd use to categorize it as out of the norm. For ME its perfectly normal. Zevran would be as unappealing to me romantically as a heterosexual character as he is as a bisexual character. I specify romantically because as an NPC he's quite funny and great to have around, but as a romantic interest no he's not the kind of guy I'd ever want to get involved with. It's his personality that I don't find attractive as far as romance goes, not his orientation.
Alistair is appealing, not because he is heterosexual or somehow "forbidden", but because he is silly, a bit shy, a little romantic, inexperienced yet still willing to make the first move if you don't push him. He can be shaped by how you interact with him. Alistair is everything Zevran is not and that's without considering either of their orientations in any significant way.
We all see things differently. I saw Anders as a palatable romance. His writing had some serious flaws mind you, hell so did the whole story, but that didn't really have anything to do with how his orientation was portrayed. I didn't find Fenris at all appealing as a romance. I found Isabella to be a wonderful character to interact with and pursue as a romance. I found Merril completely forgettable.
The reason I don't want "exclusive" this or that romances is because if something is exclusive it is in essence EXCLUSIONARY. That means someone will not be able to partake of that content in a way that is enjoyable for them and that is a mistake IMO. Of course both your opinions and mine are subjective.
I'm not sure I want to get sucked into a debate about sexuality in video games, but I did want to respond to @Nic_Mercy regarding Alistair:
I agree. Alistair is a much, much more attractive character than Zevran. But part of his character is that he's straight. And just because you want him to be a romance option for men doesn't mean he should be. I mean, if there's a straight guy in your life who's very good looking and you get along with, you aren't going to try to press him into being with you. Even more so if you're supposed to be friends with him: In my opinion, if you're friends with a straight guy, those kind of thoughts shouldn't even be entering your mind in the first place.
To be honest, I thought the friendship between a male PC and Alistair was extremely well-done, and I don't think it needs tweaking for gay players. Yes, I think we should have had a better option than Zevran in the original game, but at least there was SOMETHING. I just romanced Morrigan. Actually, once I romanced Zevran by accident because of the being nice = romance thing.
I don't necessarily mind the "Everyone is bi" thing - I think it was well-done in DA2. I do definitely prefer games with characters who aren't all bi, though, because it makes them more realistic. Like I said somewhere else before, I felt like Isabella was a much more believable (and likable) character than Zevran. Zevran, I got the feeling he would bang anything, even my Mabari. Isabella just liked sex.
Alistair isn't attractive because he's straight. You're the 2nd person to reply to me putting this ridiclous notion out there. There is nothing attractive or unattractive to me about someone's orientation. There are gay guys who are exactly like Alistair personality wise and straight guys exactly like Zevran. It's not the orientation that is the attractive quality here, its the personality and their approach to romance.
Plenty of gay men approach romance the way Alistair does no matter what stereotypes you see portrayed in the media. Why do I prefer Alistair? He's the boy next door. Why do I not care for Zevran? He's a player. Alistair is my type personality wise, Zevran is not. By putting a character in a box of one orientation you deny the player the OPTION of enjoying that content.
If not for mods allowing me to romance Alistair I would pursue NO romances with the males in DA1. The same situation applies to Morrigan and Leliana. Morrigan is a b!tCh and I'd never get involved with someone like her, while Leliana is sweet (if a bit out there) and she takes time to really get close to. The more open the options the more I can choose who I want to interact with in the way I want to interact with them. The more exclusionary the content the less options I have to enjoy it.
It might not have been your intention or that of the previous poster, but you make it seem like you think gay guys find straight guys alluring because of their straightness. While I am sure at least some find a measure of allure in this, that has little to do with who they pursue ROMANTICALLY. Pursuing a straight guy romantically is doomed to end in heartbreak because, well... HE'S STRAIGHT. Which makes him useless as far as romance goes to a gay guy. No amount of attention or pressure will change that and no gay man seriously thinks he can change the orientation of a straight guy.
Gay men and women know better than anyone that orientation CANNOT be changed. It can be hidden, it can be ignored, it can be denied, but it CANNOT change. They know because of how much effort has been made over the years to try and do just that and change them. It doesn't work, never has worked, never will work.
I didn't say you found Alistair attractive because he's straight. I said it's absurd to expect that you can romance a character who was designed as a straight man, just as it would be ridiculous in real life to pursue a straight man. Never once did I so much as imply that you have a straight guy fetish. I don't know where you got that from lol I actually said pretty much the opposite and agreed with you that he's a more attractive character than Zevran.
You are NOT denied the content just because a character has a sexuality. If you wanted to romance Alistair that badly, you could have just rolled a female Warden. It's not like the character even had a voice in the original Dragon Age. Let's also keep in mind that the first Dragon Age game came out almost five years ago. Five years ago is like another planet in terms of gays in pop culture when compared to today. That we had two gay options (one male, one female) is great. Gays are still young to the medium; writers are still figuring out how to write these characters, so of course Zevran wasn't the best representation of a gay character. But what about Leliana?
I'd also appreciate if you didn't lecture me on homosexuality. You may feel like I am persecuting you, but that's pretty far from the truth.
I didn't say you found Alistair attractive because he's straight. I said it's absurd to expect that you can romance a character who was designed as a straight man, just as it would be ridiculous in real life to pursue a straight man. Never once did I so much as imply that you have a straight guy fetish. I don't know where you got that from lol I actually said pretty much the opposite and agreed with you that he's a more attractive character than Zevran.
You are NOT denied the content just because a character has a sexuality. If you wanted to romance Alistair that badly, you could have just rolled a female Warden. It's not like the character even had a voice in the original Dragon Age. Let's also keep in mind that the first Dragon Age game came out almost five years ago. Five years ago is like another planet in terms of gays in pop culture when compared to today. That we had two gay options (one male, one female) is great. Gays are still young to the medium; writers are still figuring out how to write these characters, so of course Zevran wasn't the best representation of a gay character. But what about Leliana?
I'd also appreciate if you didn't lecture me on homosexuality. You may feel like I am persecuting you, but that's pretty far from the truth.
I don't feel "persecuted". I just wanted to clarify. I even said "it may not have been your intention" to insinuate that. I just stated it "seemed" like it. I am glad that wasn't your intent. As for romancing Alistair...
When I first played DA1 I played a male... and the bromance with Alistair was amazing. I was so disappointed that it wouldn't go any further than friendship because of how great a personality he had that I stopped that play through and remade my character as a female just to pursue the romance side of things. But I found the experience FAR more satisfying with the mod that let me play the character I wanted to play in the first place and still enjoy a romance with Alistair.
As for Leliana... I LOVED her! She was written well and interesting. She worked wonderfully. Her personality was engaging to me. I could see romancing her with either gender as easily as I did Alistair.
Morrigan is just too cold to get involved with no matter the gender of my character for my tastes. Though I've see how her romance plays out and it is nice to see her soften a bit if you really follow through.
Zevran feels like his interest in men is tacked on and more of a function of his upbringing than an actual ability to form romantic bonds with men that comes with orientation. It feels like he finds your power and strength attractive in a way that benefits him and doesn't really care about YOU as a person until much further in the romance than feels comfortable to me. As a character I find him great. He's funny, charming, has great dialogue, but as a romantic interest he just isn't appealing to me.
Alistair's romance works surprisingly well with a male or a female, much like Leliana. Barring one or two gender pronouns and one topic you can completely avoid with the right dialogue choice, all his dialogue works for both a male or a female romance as far as I am concerned. To me Alistair could be left mostly as is with just a few pronoun fixes and a gender check for one topic of conversation and be perfect for either gender.
I'm not saying it would be a lot of work and I'm not even saying they should not have done it that way. I'm just saying sometimes characters have a sexuality and we should accept that just as much as straight players should accept homosexual characters. Like I said before, not everyone in real life is one way or the other, so if we want the medium to keep evolving as an art form, we need to accept that characters have preferences, just like they have personality. At least, ideally they will. And, ideally, both will be desirable. I agree that it sucks when you like the straight option more than the gay one, but it's just the luck of the draw. People love Keldorn; I want to punch him in the face. A finite number of personalities can't please everyone, you know?
The "everyone is bi" option is certainly the best chance at pleasing all players, but I really do think it makes more sense if characters have a distinct sexuality. Take ME3 as an example: You had a handful of NPCs who were straight (and Vega said he was :P), a few NPCs who were bi, the pilot who was only gay, the psychologist (Samantha?) who was only a lesbian. I thought that was a great approach and I think it's awesome that we're starting to see characters who are only gay. And they're normal people.
Being with someone of the same gender is not "forbidden", "wrong", "odd" or any other word you'd use to categorize it as out of the norm.
I congratule you for your skill in twist the words of other people to fit your own minority complex @Nic_Mercy . I don't remember saying in any moment that homossexual behavior is something forbidden, much less wrong or odd, what i said is that everything that has a sense of forbidden instill desire, not for being right or wrong, but because the devs in DA:O coded the game to only allow straight relationships to Alistair, simple as that. in fact in all my post the words "wrong" or "odd" weren't even used.
You have a great deal of nerve thinking you can speak for me when you say: "This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better. ". You assume you know my reasons and motivations and likes and dislikes.
Yes i have for many things, but i don't need courage to say the truth, if you will assume it or not, that's really not my problem, besides i have so much nerve as you do when you stated that:
"The "everyone being bi is unrealistic" excuse doesn't fly.
So my opinion now is an excuse that don't fly but if i point your fallacies and rhetorical uses of general concepts you get insulted? Well i can't do anything to solve these feeling, it's part of the saying:
"If you speak whatever you want to say, others can answer what you don't want to hear."
I'm not saying it would be a lot of work and I'm not even saying they should not have done it that way. I'm just saying sometimes characters have a sexuality and we should accept that just as much as straight players should accept homosexual characters. Like I said before, not everyone in real life is one way or the other, so if we want the medium to keep evolving as an art form, we need to accept that characters have preferences, just like they have personality. At least, ideally they will. And, ideally, both will be desirable. I agree that it sucks when you like the straight option more than the gay one, but it's just the luck of the draw. People love Keldorn; I want to punch him in the face. A finite number of personalities can't please everyone, you know?
The "everyone is bi" option is certainly the best chance at pleasing all players, but I really do think it makes more sense if characters have a distinct sexuality. Take ME3 as an example: You had a handful of NPCs who were straight (and Vega said he was :P), a few NPCs who were bi, the pilot who was only gay, the psychologist (Samantha?) who was only a lesbian. I thought that was a great approach and I think it's awesome that we're starting to see characters who are only gay. And they're normal people.
On the whole I dont disagree with you. My problem stems from the fact that almost every time (as far as my tastes go at least) the straight characters end up being written as so much more likeable and interesting to romance than the "gay options". Anders and Isabella in DA2 were actually surprisingly decent as was Leliana in DA1. The problem I have is that if you restrict the romance, then inevitably the character that someone likes will be off limits unless they play a gender they don't wish to.
Orientation doesnt need to matter if the character is written well. That ends up being the problem I think.
Being with someone of the same gender is not "forbidden", "wrong", "odd" or any other word you'd use to categorize it as out of the norm.
I congratule you for your skill in twist the words of other people to fit your own minority complex @Nic_Mercy . I don't remember saying in any moment that homossexual behavior is something forbidden, much less wrong or odd, what i said is that everything that has a sense of forbidden instill desire, not for being right or wrong, but because the devs in DA:O coded the game to only allow straight relationships to Alistair, simple as that. in fact in all my post the words "wrong" or "odd" weren't even used.
You have a great deal of nerve thinking you can speak for me when you say: "This is an excuse and you know it, if Zevran was the one heterosexual you would want to romance him once at least, that in reason of the forbidden experience, as human beings, what is forbidden taste better. ". You assume you know my reasons and motivations and likes and dislikes.
Yes i have for many things, but i don't need courage to say the truth, if you will assume it or not, that's really not my problem, besides i have so much nerve as you do when you stated that:
"The "everyone being bi is unrealistic" excuse doesn't fly.
So my opinion now is an excuse that don't fly but if i point your fallacies and rhetorical uses of general concepts you get insulted? Well i can't do anything to solve these feeling, it's part of the saying:
"If you speak whatever you want to say, others can answer what you don't want to hear."
The "forbidden" stuff were your words not mine. Check your own post. I don't have a minority complex of any sort. I have no idea what you're talking about with this courage and truth stuff. If you're trying to say your comment about Zevran was truth and you were somehow courageous for saying I'll say you are sorely mistaken. If that's not what you're saying then please feel free to explain whatever that sentence means.
EDIT: On second thought... don't. I am not gonna reply anymore to this topic its gotten far too toxic
@Nic_Mercy, you're realtive new to this forum, so i sadly have to say that the Heat discussions about homossexuality were already been taken and solved. Want to read more on the subject from this forum?
The Human Rights, the latest and small discussion on the theme we had.
The main issue with all the above posts are that even the polite ones were closed after a time. If you read half of the posts above you will see that most of the community is or homosexual or sympatize with the cause, so homosexual romance demands aren't going to be ignored.
The make all character (or romanceable characters) bi also have been touched in the past, as many other issues. If possible this will be the last post i made to touch the subject of homosexuality in this thread by the way, so feel free to make any statement but if i have to answer something else i will do by private message if you don't mind.
@KidCarnival, what about an traveling ogre mage? Another romanceable joinable NPC?
@kamuizin: I mean the ogre mage you can encounter when travelling between areas on the wilderness/gnoll fortress maps. I find it VERY inappropriate that he isn't a romance option for ANYONE. Just because he's apparently homeless and has anger issues, he isn't less of a person with a need for love and romance. What does it say about the game and players that he is overlooked like that? Clearly, we are looking at class discrimination here. I mean, excluding a homeless ogre mage from the dating pool, that's a pretty strong indication something is off.
What I'm saying is, no matter how this 'issue' will be handled, someone somewhere will still not be happy. And the reason I'm still reading this topic is morbid curiosity just how much some people seem to get attached to romancable NPCs.
We could introduce him to the ogre mage in Daveorns mines, if they don't mind a gay ogre relationship ! I know i saw i would avoid touch the subject again, but the joke... Ah the joke, we can lose friends but never the joke!!
Gay men and women know better than anyone that orientation CANNOT be changed. It can be hidden, it can be ignored, it can be denied, but it CANNOT change. They know because of how much effort has been made over the years to try and do just that and change them. It doesn't work, never has worked, never will work.
Which is exactly why it bothers me when a romantic interest suddenly changes their sexuality simply because I'm playing a different gender. I expect an NPC's sexuality to remain stable between playthroughs, and when it doesn't they become that much less believable. It isn't the kiss of death by any means, like I said I enjoyed the romances in DA2, but those characters were good in spite of being Hawke-sexual.
I just opened a matchmaking agency in Baldur's Gate. It's located right across the street from the Hall of Wonders. If you see any lonely NPCs, please send them my way. I'll be rich in no time!
Mister Ingot? Yes, I have indeed found a suitable wife for you. Recently went through a divorce, but the emotional damage is minimal and she brings some decent loot. May I introduce you to Miss Shoal...?"
Wait, would that be a gay relationship or a straight one....
Wow, i forget the belt of gender that change the character's sex, and it's being used by no other than an ogre itself!! Well Kid, that ogre loniness will be over soon!!
Wait, would that be a gay relationship or a straight one....
Wow, i forget the belt of gender that change the character's sex, and it's being used by no other than an ogre itself!! Well Kid, that ogre loniness will be over soon!!
What if Travel Encounter Ogre Mage doesn't romance non-mage ogres? What if he will only romance female elven or half elven clerics? Can we assume just because he is an ogre he wants to be with another ogre? STOP PATRONIZING TRAVEL ENCOUNTER OGRE MAGE.
Did you take a look on that almost female ogre mage south of friendly inn's Arm? Sometimes i think in just ctrl+q it and activate via CLUAConsole a romance, look at those legs!!
Comments
Zevran is a hell of a nice character, funny and with an awesome background. You can still romance Alistair if you want, with an woman main char or with mods, as you did.
The result of open romances was specially better displayed in Dragon Age 2, where all the characters, including the ones we liked on Dragon age (Anders for example) become dools totally absent of personality, where the only difference was the skin, name and a swallow personality that only define them as naughty, serene, enraged... without much cover for it.
You see as an excuse what go against your beliefs, well don't take as an excuse but as an statement of truth cos that's what it is. Argue that for being a supernatural world everything should be possible to enforce you idea of "all bi" is a hell of a fallacy. D&D has a huge system and rule sets that define "how" we soot fire from our hands, and you just discarded it as another half done RPG made in 5 minutes. The proposal of the system is to present a fantastic world, not an bacchanal.
That's an interesting idea.
For me, i would prefer new exclusive homossexual romances instead of a new set of all bi NPCs, that would provide for the taste of forbidden, giving homosexualist defenders a bit of exclusivity, that's probally the core of the presented problem.
Charname: "now I have to break up with 4 people in a nice way to keep them in my party while I date the 5th person."
That would just be too strange in every play through.
That said I enjoyed the first time I played bg2. I didn't know about the romances and all of the sudden ano picked a flower. I was a bit flabbergasted. Did this guy just flirt with me? Figuring it out and finding the other romances I just found a reason for new playthroughs.
But if others prefer to go all in on this - it's your game and you can set up the rules and mods as you like. That is the universal strength of being charname.
As is all the other things about these games.
I do not doubt that it made a lot of sense. Give me 100+ chapters and I will rewrite Aerie as a cynical bloodthirsty murderer, who is only putting up the act.
Okay okay, I admit it, I am biased against fanfics in general. I withdraw from the discussion.
I do not doubt that it made a lot of sense. Give me 100+ chapters and I will rewrite Aerie as a cynical bloodthirsty murderer, who is only putting up the act.
Okay okay, I admit it, I am biased against fanfics in general. I withdraw from the discussion.
You are wrong regarding DA:2. The romances differ as much as the ones in BG:2 do. You have characters who start a several year long relationship and even move in with the player during chapter 2 (A and M) and others who only really want to be friends with benefits and only in the final chapter admit having deeper feelings (F and I).
And on top of that each romance had two very different paths. Friendship with Anders is a totally different experience compared to pursuing the romance on the rivalry path.
Really saying that making all romance-able NPCs available to both sexes results in all of them having the same personality is the same as saying that Aerie, Viconia and Jaheria have the same personality because all three of them romance any male human.
As for DA2, I think the main culprit was just a lack of *stuff* than the much-accused 'everyone is bisexual' accusation that gets thrown at it. I fail to see why gender-restrictions would have made the characters better in any way, since you basically had to know it was the case to even realise it. The issue with DA2 is simply that it was a rushed game that needed significantly more content.
But then, I also disagree that the characters were shallow, since I think they were probably deeper than DAOs, if significantly less likeable in a lot of situations.
I agree. Alistair is a much, much more attractive character than Zevran. But part of his character is that he's straight. And just because you want him to be a romance option for men doesn't mean he should be. I mean, if there's a straight guy in your life who's very good looking and you get along with, you aren't going to try to press him into being with you. Even more so if you're supposed to be friends with him: In my opinion, if you're friends with a straight guy, those kind of thoughts shouldn't even be entering your mind in the first place.
To be honest, I thought the friendship between a male PC and Alistair was extremely well-done, and I don't think it needs tweaking for gay players. Yes, I think we should have had a better option than Zevran in the original game, but at least there was SOMETHING. I just romanced Morrigan. Actually, once I romanced Zevran by accident because of the being nice = romance thing.
I don't necessarily mind the "Everyone is bi" thing - I think it was well-done in DA2. I do definitely prefer games with characters who aren't all bi, though, because it makes them more realistic. Like I said somewhere else before, I felt like Isabella was a much more believable (and likable) character than Zevran. Zevran, I got the feeling he would bang anything, even my Mabari. Isabella just liked sex.
Until I finally came in and read this thread, seeing that it is about romances again, I thought the topic had to do with who is the best cleric to take in BG2.
I guess the gods want everybody to "be fruitful, and multiply".
LOL
On DA2: I actually enjoyed the romances (and the game in general) but it didn't feel like all of the characters were written with being bisexual in mind. Aside from Isabella, who makes her proclivities clear, the others felt like bisexuality was a shortcut bolted on to make things easier rather than an organic part of their character. I remember thinking that the only time Merril indicated any interest in other women was when Female!Hawke was flirting with her, and IIRC Anders only brings up his previous homosexual relationship if he's in a relationship with Male!Hawke. Ironically, my main complaint was what @Eudaemonium brought up, that "you basically had to know it was the case to even realise it." It made the characters feel a little bit more shallow, to me at least. Though I guess I still prefer that to ME2's "gay people? What gay people?"
I am not interested in a "taste of the forbidden". Such a concept makes absolutely no sense to me. Being with someone of the same gender is not "forbidden", "wrong", "odd" or any other word you'd use to categorize it as out of the norm. For ME its perfectly normal. Zevran would be as unappealing to me romantically as a heterosexual character as he is as a bisexual character. I specify romantically because as an NPC he's quite funny and great to have around, but as a romantic interest no he's not the kind of guy I'd ever want to get involved with. It's his personality that I don't find attractive as far as romance goes, not his orientation.
Alistair is appealing, not because he is heterosexual or somehow "forbidden", but because he is silly, a bit shy, a little romantic, inexperienced yet still willing to make the first move if you don't push him. He can be shaped by how you interact with him. Alistair is everything Zevran is not and that's without considering either of their orientations in any significant way.
We all see things differently. I saw Anders as a palatable romance. His writing had some serious flaws mind you, hell so did the whole story, but that didn't really have anything to do with how his orientation was portrayed. I didn't find Fenris at all appealing as a romance. I found Isabella to be a wonderful character to interact with and pursue as a romance. I found Merril completely forgettable.
The reason I don't want "exclusive" this or that romances is because if something is exclusive it is in essence EXCLUSIONARY. That means someone will not be able to partake of that content in a way that is enjoyable for them and that is a mistake IMO. Of course both your opinions and mine are subjective.
Plenty of gay men approach romance the way Alistair does no matter what stereotypes you see portrayed in the media. Why do I prefer Alistair? He's the boy next door. Why do I not care for Zevran? He's a player. Alistair is my type personality wise, Zevran is not. By putting a character in a box of one orientation you deny the player the OPTION of enjoying that content.
If not for mods allowing me to romance Alistair I would pursue NO romances with the males in DA1. The same situation applies to Morrigan and Leliana. Morrigan is a b!tCh and I'd never get involved with someone like her, while Leliana is sweet (if a bit out there) and she takes time to really get close to. The more open the options the more I can choose who I want to interact with in the way I want to interact with them. The more exclusionary the content the less options I have to enjoy it.
It might not have been your intention or that of the previous poster, but you make it seem like you think gay guys find straight guys alluring because of their straightness. While I am sure at least some find a measure of allure in this, that has little to do with who they pursue ROMANTICALLY. Pursuing a straight guy romantically is doomed to end in heartbreak because, well... HE'S STRAIGHT. Which makes him useless as far as romance goes to a gay guy. No amount of attention or pressure will change that and no gay man seriously thinks he can change the orientation of a straight guy.
Gay men and women know better than anyone that orientation CANNOT be changed. It can be hidden, it can be ignored, it can be denied, but it CANNOT change. They know because of how much effort has been made over the years to try and do just that and change them. It doesn't work, never has worked, never will work.
You are NOT denied the content just because a character has a sexuality. If you wanted to romance Alistair that badly, you could have just rolled a female Warden. It's not like the character even had a voice in the original Dragon Age.
Let's also keep in mind that the first Dragon Age game came out almost five years ago. Five years ago is like another planet in terms of gays in pop culture when compared to today. That we had two gay options (one male, one female) is great. Gays are still young to the medium; writers are still figuring out how to write these characters, so of course Zevran wasn't the best representation of a gay character. But what about Leliana?
I'd also appreciate if you didn't lecture me on homosexuality. You may feel like I am persecuting you, but that's pretty far from the truth.
When I first played DA1 I played a male... and the bromance with Alistair was amazing. I was so disappointed that it wouldn't go any further than friendship because of how great a personality he had that I stopped that play through and remade my character as a female just to pursue the romance side of things. But I found the experience FAR more satisfying with the mod that let me play the character I wanted to play in the first place and still enjoy a romance with Alistair.
As for Leliana... I LOVED her! She was written well and interesting. She worked wonderfully. Her personality was engaging to me. I could see romancing her with either gender as easily as I did Alistair.
Morrigan is just too cold to get involved with no matter the gender of my character for my tastes. Though I've see how her romance plays out and it is nice to see her soften a bit if you really follow through.
Zevran feels like his interest in men is tacked on and more of a function of his upbringing than an actual ability to form romantic bonds with men that comes with orientation. It feels like he finds your power and strength attractive in a way that benefits him and doesn't really care about YOU as a person until much further in the romance than feels comfortable to me. As a character I find him great. He's funny, charming, has great dialogue, but as a romantic interest he just isn't appealing to me.
Alistair's romance works surprisingly well with a male or a female, much like Leliana. Barring one or two gender pronouns and one topic you can completely avoid with the right dialogue choice, all his dialogue works for both a male or a female romance as far as I am concerned. To me Alistair could be left mostly as is with just a few pronoun fixes and a gender check for one topic of conversation and be perfect for either gender.
The "everyone is bi" option is certainly the best chance at pleasing all players, but I really do think it makes more sense if characters have a distinct sexuality. Take ME3 as an example: You had a handful of NPCs who were straight (and Vega said he was :P), a few NPCs who were bi, the pilot who was only gay, the psychologist (Samantha?) who was only a lesbian. I thought that was a great approach and I think it's awesome that we're starting to see characters who are only gay. And they're normal people.
Yes i have for many things, but i don't need courage to say the truth, if you will assume it or not, that's really not my problem, besides i have so much nerve as you do when you stated that: So my opinion now is an excuse that don't fly but if i point your fallacies and rhetorical uses of general concepts you get insulted? Well i can't do anything to solve these feeling, it's part of the saying:
"If you speak whatever you want to say, others can answer what you don't want to hear."
Orientation doesnt need to matter if the character is written well. That ends up being the problem I think.
EDIT: On second thought... don't. I am not gonna reply anymore to this topic its gotten far too toxic
The Human Rights, the latest and small discussion on the theme we had.
sexuality on the Realms Answer from Ed Greenwood. This one is an research made by @LadyRhian on the matter after a heat discussion made into another thread that i will point.
Will Neera roamnce female characters? a brief discussion, i didn't take part on it.
New Romances in BGEE Not the oldest thread but with an medium level of heat on it.
Gay Romance One of the oldest and heatest discussions on the subject.
Female-Female romance.
an old pacific thread.
romance who needs it a brief (6 pages) pool on the issue.
The main issue with all the above posts are that even the polite ones were closed after a time. If you read half of the posts above you will see that most of the community is or homosexual or sympatize with the cause, so homosexual romance demands aren't going to be ignored.
The make all character (or romanceable characters) bi also have been touched in the past, as many other issues. If possible this will be the last post i made to touch the subject of homosexuality in this thread by the way, so feel free to make any statement but if i have to answer something else i will do by private message if you don't mind.
@KidCarnival, what about an traveling ogre mage? Another romanceable joinable NPC?
What I'm saying is, no matter how this 'issue' will be handled, someone somewhere will still not be happy. And the reason I'm still reading this topic is morbid curiosity just how much some people seem to get attached to romancable NPCs.
Wait, would that be a gay relationship or a straight one....
I just opened a matchmaking agency in Baldur's Gate. It's located right across the street from the Hall of Wonders. If you see any lonely NPCs, please send them my way. I'll be rich in no time!
Mister Ingot? Yes, I have indeed found a suitable wife for you. Recently went through a divorce, but the emotional damage is minimal and she brings some decent loot. May I introduce you to Miss Shoal...?"
"Honey... I want to use this tonight..." *hands Scroll of Shapechange*
To quote a certain priest: "Sometimes... Faerûn can be a wonderful place."