I feel super lost in sexuality conversations as an asexual. all I can say is it is a game where you can have multiple characters and experience all the content. I know my brother, who is straight, thinks Alistair has the best romance in DA:O and often plays female characters because of that. There is nothing wrong with it when this is a role playing game where you don't have to be yourself. You know what, I was to the strip club in GTA 5. I am probably never going to go into one in real life as an asexual, but I think it is totally fine if my in game character is a straight male who goes to the club, and brings the girls home anyway, it is not as though I go asking for romances to exclude sex because I don't like it in real life and would like to keep it strictly romantic. though at the very least I managed to get that once with Tali'Zorah in Mass Effect and I loved her character as well so you know what, I had only one romance that I could see real life me in.(quarian and human systems are incompatible. shepards human sperm would kill her, even a skin flake could, so that romance is pretty strictly romantic and away from sex) I don't need to go asking devs for this stuff, I just let them do their own thing and give me characters with a personality, part of that would be sexuality.
Being asexual can give a very new perspective on stuff like that. (Asexual, homoromantic in my case, so I'm the least considered demographic no matter where, lol) To me, it's just crazy how obsessed people (not only here) get over the "desperate" need to romance NPC A with Charname B.
I see no problem with either just head-canon a romance that isn't a real option - in BG it's really easy; your party is interacting with you as friends - or play the charname of the gender that NPC will romance. Usually, I bother with neither and would very very much prefer friendship paths. I dislike the thought of missing out on content... but the actual romances are also so cheesy, I just can't take it serious. And at some point, most bring up sex. Friendship paths would make head canon easier, and avoid these two problems - and the whole orientation mumbo jumbo, as people of all orientations, races and genders can be friends. In that case, it's not unrealistic or strange that all NPCs would have the option for all charnames.
Being asexual can give a very new perspective on stuff like that. (Asexual, homoromantic in my case, so I'm the least considered demographic no matter where, lol) To me, it's just crazy how obsessed people (not only here) get over the "desperate" need to romance NPC A with Charname B.
I don't understand the "need" for a romance in RPGs in genreal. It's rare to play a videogame which makes you give half a damn for a particular NPC, and for an actual romance you would need emotional involvement orders of magnitude stronger than that.
And then you'd be crazy anyway, seriously, who would ever actually fall for a fictional character. So really, what purpose do the romances serve? It's just empy content and a feature to slap on the box. Or just something to make an achievement out of.
That's why King's Bounty: The Legend had the best romance system.
@blackchimes just one example for you then in terms of emotional link:
Aeris from Final Fantasy XII. That speaks for itself.
Many other games have these feelings, the real good at least have, as:
Chrono's Death in Chrono Trigger. Sid death at the arms of Celes in Final Fantasy VI (with right to backmusic and all), also in FFVI Cian's family being killed with poison by Kefka.
There are many good examples of deep emotional links in games, not all made with romance issues but some are.
I think it's a missed opportunity that Viconia isn't bisexual. Given the power level of females over males in drow society, I'd expect it to be more common, the same way it was in Greek society between men.
I think it's a missed opportunity that Viconia isn't bisexual. Given the power level of females over males in drow society, I'd expect it to be more common, the same way it was in Greek society between men.
It is not a missed opportunity, it is an atrocity that deserved to be missed. Yeah, sure, females look down on males, but that doesn't justify that there should be lesbian drow, it only means that they treat male drow like tools or consorts, that sort of thing, they don't see the need to develop a true romantic relationship with their mates because of their evil nature. As servants of Lolth, the drow focus more on their lust and try hard to avoid developing feelings of love and affection, emotions that a chaotic evil deity like Lolth would despise, understand? After a drow couple mate, they immediately break up to avoid affectionate feelings.
It's the reason why Viconia behaves this way too when your charname romance her in BG2 SoA, as a drow, she is trying not to give in to her true feelings to your charname, she tries to encourage your charname to reject her after your charname's first night in bed with her but if your charname persists, she gives up and your charname gets an opportunity to "sleep" with her again.
Why wouldn't a society that encourages females to only see each other as equals not have a higher rate of lesbianism?
Because sexual identity is determined by innate/genetic factors, not social/cultural ones. Societies that encourage females to only see each other as equals might be more tolerant of lesbianism - and lesbians might feel more free to express their sexuality openly - but social factors can't really influence whether or not homosexuality is part of a person's identity.
For example: real-life society has discriminated against women ruthlessly and men have historically been encouraged to only see each other as equals...but that hasn't caused higher rates of male homosexuality (in fact, it wasn't until recent increases in gender *equality* and declines in heterosexism that homosexual and bisexual people began to feel comfortable/safe expressing their orientations openly). There's no reason to assume that a society that is fiercely matriarchal (drow) would encourage homosexuality any more than a society that is staunchly patriarchal (humanity).
That said, there definitely should be some romance options for people with minority orientations in BG2:EE...and it would be really nice if those characters would stick to their orientations *exclusively* instead of bending their sexuality to the will of the player (lookin' at you, Bioware).
Maybe we could set the surprisingly selective Travel-encounter Ogre Mage up with Aerie before her illusion is dispelled! That way she's both a female elven cleric/mage but also a male ogre. She hits all the bases, all the time!
Being asexual can give a very new perspective on stuff like that. (Asexual, homoromantic in my case, so I'm the least considered demographic no matter where, lol) To me, it's just crazy how obsessed people (not only here) get over the "desperate" need to romance NPC A with Charname B.
I don't understand the "need" for a romance in RPGs in genreal. It's rare to play a videogame which makes you give half a damn for a particular NPC, and for an actual romance you would need emotional involvement orders of magnitude stronger than that.
And then you'd be crazy anyway, seriously, who would ever actually fall for a fictional character. So really, what purpose do the romances serve? It's just empy content and a feature to slap on the box. Or just something to make an achievement out of.
That's why King's Bounty: The Legend had the best romance system.
It is another way to roleplay, not a way to feel loved (well, maybe some are like that) I just don't get why people take it as seriously as being upset a romance isn't gay and you won't make a female for. I don't even look for romance in the world though because I would prefer to die a virgin and without kids. At least I don't fail at this for not trying and not wanting it. I can say though I would be happy to meet Tali for real considering how well it would work for me as an asexual, but sad truth is I won't so as I avoid the majority of people I will likely never have romance because everybody want sex.
@kidcarnival greetings my fellow asexual! Good to see one over here on the forums. It is almost like we are nonexistent away from the a asexuality site.
Also, upset my iOS device just "fixed" asexuality into sexuality like it doesn't exist
God, i said i wouldn't partake in this discussion anymore but when i see some of the posts that make the promisse become so hard to endure... OMG!! Ok, i'm cool, leting it pass... done ... Now i need a beholder romance to make me forget all this stuff!
@Nic_Mercy, as one gay person to another, I want to thank you for your courage in standing up for us gay people, against extreme and tense opposition. It is so very hard to get people who are not gay to understand what it feels like, and what the world is like for us. They keep saying the same sorts of things again and again that really hurt, and they just don't seem to realize. When we try to explain why the things they say are hurtful, so very often, the reaction is something along the lines of "Get over yourself. Stop rubbing my face in it. You're so self-centered to expect anybody to adjust for you."
In my maturity, I have become rather toughened up, and I have learned to just let a whole lot of hurtful stuff roll off of me. Sometimes, I get along very well with people with whom I have much in common, except for this one issue. I just kind of don't bring it up most of the time.
When people are saying hurtful things, I sometimes try to diffuse the situation with a joke, or try to inject humor into the discussion somehow, if I can find it in myself or think of something funny to say. I've found that laughter is one of the most powerful peacemaking tools available to humans.
I've also come to a place in my personal spiritual journey in life, where I can find it in myself to give the benefit of the doubt to people who say hurtful things, that they really don't mean to inflict emotional harm, and that they are basically good people doing the best they can to make sense out of life, just like everybody else.
As for being out as a gay man in the forums, I've already discussed it a lot as a serious issue in some of those other threads. I don't really need to go around and around with other forumites about it anymore.
The way I usually choose to express my gayness in this forum, is to just matter-of-factly choose males in polls about romances without making any big deal about it. Sometimes I post flirtatious comments to other male posters, and they're usually cool about it. I guess every once in awhile, a poster will try to say something hostile to one of my playful gay posts, along the lines of "Eww, not this again, shut up about being gay already, I don't want to hear about it."
You know what I do? I completely ignore them. I don't answer them, and I don't engage them. I just go merrily about my gay way posting about the crushes I have on various rpg male *cartoons*, and making my gay jokes, and most people are fine with it. I'm certainly very comfortable in my own skin at my age.
I hope maybe this helps somehow, because I remember how much it used to hurt when I was treated with a complete lack of understanding by straight people.
TLDR: @Nic_Mercy, thank you so much for your courage, and for your willingness to be a role model and an encouragement to other gay people. I know how difficult it is. Whenever I see someone valiantly trying and trying to get people to understand, I am always filled with admiration and pride.
I'm not sure if any of that was directed at me, but I am not, in fact, straight.
The best answer i saw about the issue. I can't figure out if you are straight, or if you're not straight. The use of "," before not really messed up with the phrase !
@blackchimes - I'm fairly certain that a majority of BG players has some sort of emotional attachment to an NPC. In a poll, I suspect that Yoshimo would lead that chart. Many, many players still feel either betrayed or sad about Yoshimo's story in BG2 and as consequence, don't take him along anymore/treat him as a temporary placeholder for Imoen, or want the content to be finished/rewritten so it becomes possible to redeem and keep him. Without emotional attachment, none of that would happen. People would shrug and just take Jan if they need a thief and never think about it twice. That's not about romance or anything, but still a strong attachment. And a good RPG should aim to get people to care about characters, same as movies and books. If you don't care about the characters, you ultimately also don't care about the story - and why would you - which is the selling point of narrative entertainment.
So, I can see why people have strong preferences for certain NPCs, including a preference for a romance quest over the others. What I don't understand is the "why" people prefer Romance NPC 1 over all others. To me, such decisions are a matter of compelling writing. If a romance is more interesting, better worded or otherwise stands out as more appealing, I can totally see why people prefer a good, interesting story. And that's the key - I see it as stories, and the better a story is written, the easier immersion comes and the better it works with my own (charname's) story. That's why consistency - including a NPC's orientation - is important to me. If the story in itself is good, I can play out different versions of my own with it - how does Male Evil Assassin Charname react to NPC 1? How does NPC 1 get along with Female Neutral Druid Charname? I don't want the good story to be changed and twisted around to "work better" with my current story. Just like I don't want every NPC I come across to change their alignment to match charname's. I want characters in my story, not yesmen/women who try to please me.
What irritates me about the militant romance front is that they get attached to a character like they would to a real person, plan their entire run and charname around the romance NPC. Things like "I want to romance Viconia, so I can't play a cleric or elf and can't take Keldorn and can't this or that". It's the player doing exactly what I don't want the NPC to do: bend over backwards just to please that one character. And for what? Some lines of ultimately irrelevant extra dialogue. I don't get it. I don't get how those few scripted lines can be so damn important that all those compromises are made. Sure, if you happen to dislike playing clerics, elves and can't stand Keldorn anyway, knock yourself out. But planning to meet the criteria of a fictional character and sacrifice things you'd otherwise enjoy, that's a mystery to me. And that's why I don't understand the "demands" to change NPCs to have criteria that are "easier" (or more convenient) to meet. If you want your charname to be a female evil elf cleric, nothing stops you. You'll have a different story this time; one where charname doesn't have the extra dialogues with Viconia, but that doesn't mean it will be a bad or less enjoyable story. At least to me, a good story is a good story and BG certainly has more than enough story beyond the romance talks.
To me, the romances - and the lack of homosexual romances - are no big deal due to that. There's a far more interesting story than "boy/girl meets girl/girl". I don't feel anything is missing because I'm not playing fantasy games to get a love story.
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@Corvino: You, sir, are absolutely hired for my matchmaking agency! Travel Encounter Ogre Mage will finally be happy, thanks to you! Your next assignment is the Greater Basilisk on Durlag's roof. He's looking for a scaly creature of any gender - must share his love for free climbing, sculpturing and watching the stars.
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@ChildofBhaal599: If you mean AVEN... I haven't seen many asexuals there either. Maybe it's because I'm old and jaded, but it feels like there are many, many teenagers who just want a fancy/exotic label. Same as a few years ago, when suddenly everyone was bi. Meh, this discussion doesn't belong here - pm if you like.
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@kamuizin: Sorry, this beholder is taken. However, my sister is a single mom, with some really shiny eyes. If you're interested, I can arrange a Blind Date. (See what I did there? Haha, beholder humor!)
---
To end the ice cream debate before it even starts: Beer-Spinach Ice Cream is eyestalks down the best ever. Cretins.
You know though I look at it now and realize many come and right away you can tell they don't understand. I don't really spend time there, but I remember somebody declare themself asexual after a break up. They don't understand you can't go gay bi or asexual.
Comments
I see no problem with either just head-canon a romance that isn't a real option - in BG it's really easy; your party is interacting with you as friends - or play the charname of the gender that NPC will romance. Usually, I bother with neither and would very very much prefer friendship paths. I dislike the thought of missing out on content... but the actual romances are also so cheesy, I just can't take it serious. And at some point, most bring up sex. Friendship paths would make head canon easier, and avoid these two problems - and the whole orientation mumbo jumbo, as people of all orientations, races and genders can be friends. In that case, it's not unrealistic or strange that all NPCs would have the option for all charnames.
And then you'd be crazy anyway, seriously, who would ever actually fall for a fictional character. So really, what purpose do the romances serve? It's just empy content and a feature to slap on the box. Or just something to make an achievement out of.
That's why King's Bounty: The Legend had the best romance system.
Aeris from Final Fantasy XII. That speaks for itself.
Many other games have these feelings, the real good at least have, as:
Chrono's Death in Chrono Trigger.
Sid death at the arms of Celes in Final Fantasy VI (with right to backmusic and all), also in FFVI Cian's family being killed with poison by Kefka.
There are many good examples of deep emotional links in games, not all made with romance issues but some are.
For example: real-life society has discriminated against women ruthlessly and men have historically been encouraged to only see each other as equals...but that hasn't caused higher rates of male homosexuality (in fact, it wasn't until recent increases in gender *equality* and declines in heterosexism that homosexual and bisexual people began to feel comfortable/safe expressing their orientations openly). There's no reason to assume that a society that is fiercely matriarchal (drow) would encourage homosexuality any more than a society that is staunchly patriarchal (humanity).
That said, there definitely should be some romance options for people with minority orientations in BG2:EE...and it would be really nice if those characters would stick to their orientations *exclusively* instead of bending their sexuality to the will of the player (lookin' at you, Bioware).
@kidcarnival greetings my fellow asexual! Good to see one over here on the forums. It is almost like we are nonexistent away from the a asexuality site.
Also, upset my iOS device just "fixed" asexuality into sexuality like it doesn't exist
This kind of discussion is usually as fruitless as discussing whether vanilla or chocolate is the best ice cream flavour.
In my maturity, I have become rather toughened up, and I have learned to just let a whole lot of hurtful stuff roll off of me. Sometimes, I get along very well with people with whom I have much in common, except for this one issue. I just kind of don't bring it up most of the time.
When people are saying hurtful things, I sometimes try to diffuse the situation with a joke, or try to inject humor into the discussion somehow, if I can find it in myself or think of something funny to say. I've found that laughter is one of the most powerful peacemaking tools available to humans.
I've also come to a place in my personal spiritual journey in life, where I can find it in myself to give the benefit of the doubt to people who say hurtful things, that they really don't mean to inflict emotional harm, and that they are basically good people doing the best they can to make sense out of life, just like everybody else.
As for being out as a gay man in the forums, I've already discussed it a lot as a serious issue in some of those other threads. I don't really need to go around and around with other forumites about it anymore.
The way I usually choose to express my gayness in this forum, is to just matter-of-factly choose males in polls about romances without making any big deal about it. Sometimes I post flirtatious comments to other male posters, and they're usually cool about it. I guess every once in awhile, a poster will try to say something hostile to one of my playful gay posts, along the lines of "Eww, not this again, shut up about being gay already, I don't want to hear about it."
You know what I do? I completely ignore them. I don't answer them, and I don't engage them. I just go merrily about my gay way posting about the crushes I have on various rpg male *cartoons*, and making my gay jokes, and most people are fine with it. I'm certainly very comfortable in my own skin at my age.
I hope maybe this helps somehow, because I remember how much it used to hurt when I was treated with a complete lack of understanding by straight people.
TLDR: @Nic_Mercy, thank you so much for your courage, and for your willingness to be a role model and an encouragement to other gay people. I know how difficult it is. Whenever I see someone valiantly trying and trying to get people to understand, I am always filled with admiration and pride.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html
So, I can see why people have strong preferences for certain NPCs, including a preference for a romance quest over the others. What I don't understand is the "why" people prefer Romance NPC 1 over all others. To me, such decisions are a matter of compelling writing. If a romance is more interesting, better worded or otherwise stands out as more appealing, I can totally see why people prefer a good, interesting story. And that's the key - I see it as stories, and the better a story is written, the easier immersion comes and the better it works with my own (charname's) story. That's why consistency - including a NPC's orientation - is important to me. If the story in itself is good, I can play out different versions of my own with it - how does Male Evil Assassin Charname react to NPC 1? How does NPC 1 get along with Female Neutral Druid Charname? I don't want the good story to be changed and twisted around to "work better" with my current story. Just like I don't want every NPC I come across to change their alignment to match charname's. I want characters in my story, not yesmen/women who try to please me.
What irritates me about the militant romance front is that they get attached to a character like they would to a real person, plan their entire run and charname around the romance NPC. Things like "I want to romance Viconia, so I can't play a cleric or elf and can't take Keldorn and can't this or that". It's the player doing exactly what I don't want the NPC to do: bend over backwards just to please that one character. And for what? Some lines of ultimately irrelevant extra dialogue. I don't get it. I don't get how those few scripted lines can be so damn important that all those compromises are made. Sure, if you happen to dislike playing clerics, elves and can't stand Keldorn anyway, knock yourself out. But planning to meet the criteria of a fictional character and sacrifice things you'd otherwise enjoy, that's a mystery to me. And that's why I don't understand the "demands" to change NPCs to have criteria that are "easier" (or more convenient) to meet. If you want your charname to be a female evil elf cleric, nothing stops you. You'll have a different story this time; one where charname doesn't have the extra dialogues with Viconia, but that doesn't mean it will be a bad or less enjoyable story. At least to me, a good story is a good story and BG certainly has more than enough story beyond the romance talks.
To me, the romances - and the lack of homosexual romances - are no big deal due to that. There's a far more interesting story than "boy/girl meets girl/girl". I don't feel anything is missing because I'm not playing fantasy games to get a love story.
---
@Corvino: You, sir, are absolutely hired for my matchmaking agency! Travel Encounter Ogre Mage will finally be happy, thanks to you! Your next assignment is the Greater Basilisk on Durlag's roof. He's looking for a scaly creature of any gender - must share his love for free climbing, sculpturing and watching the stars.
---
@ChildofBhaal599: If you mean AVEN... I haven't seen many asexuals there either. Maybe it's because I'm old and jaded, but it feels like there are many, many teenagers who just want a fancy/exotic label. Same as a few years ago, when suddenly everyone was bi. Meh, this discussion doesn't belong here - pm if you like.
---
@kamuizin: Sorry, this beholder is taken. However, my sister is a single mom, with some really shiny eyes. If you're interested, I can arrange a Blind Date. (See what I did there? Haha, beholder humor!)
---
To end the ice cream debate before it even starts: Beer-Spinach Ice Cream is eyestalks down the best ever. Cretins.
You know though I look at it now and realize many come and right away you can tell they don't understand. I don't really spend time there, but I remember somebody declare themself asexual after a break up. They don't understand you can't go gay bi or asexual.
ok, let's let this topic hopefully pass now
(Dee's Edit: Preferably in the Off-Topic section, of course.)