@Schneidend: Yeah "chaotic" good is always kind of gray zone. That is a point. Also,just to mention it again. Warm beds+food = Not really in issue in games really. Not only in PC games,i know alot of DMs in RP-groups that even forget that food and beds cost gold and just don't check if the players have really paid or not...sadly. So taking gold from a family that has nothing left, just so the hero can buy new gear,not really shiny example for good. So i expect Lawful and neutral good characters to refuse to take the money. Chaotic good may take it.
What i said earlier what gets me most is more the point that there are People (Like my mentioned friend earlier) who expect to be rewarded extra in a game for being extra good. Like they should be some point in a game where an Angel Descend from the Sky and says "Bless you HeroName,You have refused to take money from this who need it more and have given some coins to the poor.For this ,Have this giant pot of Gold" .....................Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-No i don't think so.
In real life, the rewards for being good are personal satisfaction and that people like you (and sometimes there are complications too, which is why it's probably most reasonable to be Lawful Neutral in real life). Those rewards are not to be underestimated, and sometimes a pen-and-paper game can replicate that feeling. However, in this game you're looking at a mechanical Reputation that has a cap, so eventually "Good Deed #17" or whatever can't make it go any higher. Personal satisfaction entirely rests with the player: if you like thinking out your roleplaying choices, you may still get this reward. If you are studying the game from the point of efficiency or mechanics, obviously you can make a strong case against being good all the time.
@LordRumfish Hmm that sounds very reasonable. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
From a game mechanic point seen i always thought that restricted Artifacts were a good example for how to keep people doing good deeds.Like the powerful sword against evil that could only be worn by Lawful good characters (An alignment which is easily lost in Pen &Paper or some NWN games when you get out of line to much) . Also some games try to (but rarely succeed) celebrate a good hero in making him Famous so he get Positive reactions from Farmers,villagers,nobels etc. (works better in Pen & Paper) which is also a nice way of rewarding them.
So all i am saying is good Players who play always good should get Fame ,personal satification, and the normal common rewards for killing bad guys Evil Players should get more loot due to not giving away any money and even demanding (or threatining) for more rewards.And the freedom of not beeing restricted to any moral or codes (unless you play lawful Evil and serve a dark god/nation of course) .
But in the end its everybodys own choice if they like to play a Hero or a villain more and what they find more fitting.
What i said earlier what gets me most is more the point that there are People (Like my mentioned friend earlier) who expect to be rewarded extra in a game for being extra good. Like they should be some point in a game where an Angel Descend from the Sky and says "Bless you HeroName,You have refused to take money from this who need it more and have given some coins to the poor.For this ,Have this giant pot of Gold" .....................Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-No i don't think so.
These types of people don't understand that being good is supposed to be it's own reward. It is more the attitude of a neutral who tries to be good and then says "Do I get something out of the deal?" The point where you want something as a reward for being 'Good', is the point at which that person doesn't understand what being good is all about.
As a somewhat tangential issue, I am currently playing a somewhat 'Evil' party through BG1 and am finding it tough to manage reputation.
To start off, I have a CE Half-Orc as Charname. So 8 Rep to start. I immediately added Viccy for a -2 bringing me down to 6. Monty got nicked attempting to pick pockets once and we had to kill the guy, taking us down to 4. I paid to restore rep back to 6 and then picked up Dorn. So then I was back to 4 again. I also encountered a member of the Sacred Heart in the wilderness who attacked me straight away and had to be killed.
I've since paid my way back up to 7 (including at least one charitable act) but when I was at 4, I made the mistake of going into town at Nashkal. The Flaming Fist auto-aggroed. I ran away, but now even with my 7 rep, they automatically attack. There should absolutely be a way to reset the Agro level of any non-combatant. Either charm should reset it until such time as there is a reason to re-agro, or time should likewise reset. I'd even be happy if certain events, such as resolving the Mines issue would reset the global variable?
I am concerned that the assassin who attacks the party after Mulahay is dealt with will end up being (a) a tough battle including the Flaming fist and (b) tank my rep once again because each FF death cumulatively wracks up negatives.
I've never been able to actually finish an evil playthrough of the game. Not because I dislike playing as an evil character, but because the story-line and most of the options through the game just don't seem to match an evil Bhaalspawn very well.
These types of people don't understand that being good is supposed to be it's own reward. It is more the attitude of a neutral who tries to be good and then says "Do I get something out of the deal?" The point where you want something as a reward for being 'Good', is the point at which that person doesn't understand what being good is all about.
Thank you very much for that. i whole heartly Agree
About your other stuff. i'm afraid i don't know how to help you with that. I startet my playtrough with an NE Mage and tried to hold the rep at 7 or 8 at all time since i also wanted to keep Imoen and Neera in the group (First for being the Party thief and the Second cause i liked her antics) .Also i always thought the Rep system was a little bit broken. i mean you start with a rep of 8 when CE even though you never left your home so your "rep" could not spread? and then you pick up an half-orc and a drow and suddenly the flaming fist is everywhere saying that you have to "Pay for your crimes"? (okok granted to get the drow you had to kill a knight but geez.). If you don't want to get in Alignment trouble all i can think of is the general advise that is common for most gamers: Save Early,Save often and plan accordingly.
@Elendar . That is very much true but if i remember correctly it gets better in BG2 so maybe give it then a try
@the_spyder. 8 reputation is the safe spot for me and if I'm playing evil I try to stay there. It's high enough to keep you off the radar of the local law enforcement and even if you have to off an uppity citizen you can make your way to a temple without being stopped. It's also the cheapest for donating your reputation back up after such an event. You're not particularly liked but people are willing to look the other way for a bit of cash because there aren't wanted posters everywhere with your face on them.
If Nashkel is off-limits for you then just avoid it for now. As an outlaw, boldly strolling into town is not the smartest move. You can always come back for revenge when you're stronger. If you need to turn in a quest, make yourself invisible before journeying there.
Basically, as I finish bounties, what I have been doing is have Edwin cast invisibility on Charname and then have the rest of the party hide out of sight. The now Invisible Charname goes to the main road and watches until the Flaming Fist pass by and then initiate conversation. That works fine so long as I (a) don't enter town from the north and (b) don't get involved in any time consuming activities such as having a fight which lasts long enough for the FF to complete their circuit. But it's all good. I can manage it from there.
I figured that I would merely have to avoid Nashkal from now on. I have been pretty much making Beregost as my base of operations since picking up Dorn anyway. There is close proximity to a temple and to a decent store, so it's all good. And yeah, it's the price I pay for the company I keep.
As I stated, I'd think the smart way of doing it would be that Charm Person should make them favorable towards the party until it expires, then it should return the target to their default state, rather than their last state. That way, you could charm pick pocket victims into passivity rather than forcing the party to kill the poor sod if you fail. This would solve a lot of ills associated with the Rep system as you could charm your way out of a low rep as well. Otherwise, some global event such as solving the Nashkal mines problem should likewise give you a new lease on life. Instead, the FF just judge you by how you were the last time they saw you. Or "once a criminal, always a criminal" which is just plain wrong.
The Rep system isn't ideal on a number of different levels. I'd personally have written it differently if I had my way. but I don't, and it is a small price to pay for an otherwise awesome game. And since I am intent on doing both Dorn's and Baeloth's quests this play-through, I am more or less stuck. I'm sure once I start doing more of the main story line, My rep will climb to unreasonably high levels anyway.
@the_spyder I agree. Some way of fixing "misunderstandings" without killing those involved is sorely missing. I would rather charm person raise their reaction a little bit rather than being outright mind control (of course they're going to be mad afterwards the way it works now because you basically mindraped them into submission). Could give the Friends spell a use too.
Agreed about Rep as well. I'm not a big fan of the alignment system in general, to be honest. But I think it's made this way so that players don't have to struggle with the morality of slaughtering hordes of goblins and can just accept that if it's labeled Evil it's probably okay to kill.
I'm sure once I start doing more of the main story line, My rep will climb to unreasonably high levels anyway.
uh.. not to burst your bubble but i have already finished my Evil playthrough and can surely tell you that it doesn't work that way. You get very low rep in the Main quest that it hardly matters, its more the Side quests that can help you with that (like bringing a found ring back to her owner instead of selling it etc..) but that would not really fit for an evil group so buying your rep is probatly the other way to go. But if you can make the playthrough even with the broken rep system would be all the more impressive.
Only really Rep changing Event (both ways i believe) that i can remember was at the end of the Cloakwood mines.so just be careful then.
@Mermidion - Heh, thanks for the info. I guess I meant from my experience of playing the game a bunch of times, I meant the "Main story line" from the perspective of progression through the game and all of the stuff that opens up. I know there are lots of things that can potentially give boosts depending on what you do. And I was probably thinking a little bit about BG2 into the bargain.
Still, with as powerful as the Evil NPCs are, and the fact that I have really been working on socking away XP early, I feel relatively prepared for anything the game throws at me.
I play my chaotic evil the way I play my neutral evils:
"Stay out of my way and you won't get hurt. Look at me funny, and I'll burn out your eyes."
I think the only difference between my Charname and a neutral-evil Charname is that mine genuinely enjoys watching "weaklings" suffer and squirm under his mighty sorcerous powers. It's more than being selfish, and not about being stupid "runkillhere"--it's about power, the glee that comes from showing off this power, and doing whatever it takes to attain such power with little to no regard for others' lives.
Sarevock is a brilliant example of a smart Chaotic Evil. He is cunning and devious, and he won't go entirely out of his way to harm some innocent puppy. He has bigger fish to fry, larger towers to topple, a whole nation of unsuspecting victims just waiting to be sacrificed in his grand scheme. Heck, if he wasn't trying to succeed Bhaal, he and my Charname would probably be best evil buddies. But of course, there can only be one Lord of Murder, and as my Charname so eloquently puts it, "It's going to be me."
Unfortunately in BG it's quite hard to properly play evil. Evil in BG is basically just being a jerk which quickly results in getting attacked by guards at every turn. i.e. stupid evil. There are a few exceptions where you can be properly evil, but not many
Proper evil would mean waiting until the right time to betray someone - having people believe you are a good guy will really help with this. Helping an old lady rescue her cat will take 5 minutes of your time and will fool people into thinking you are an upstanding citizen. Turning down her 10 gold reward when you already have 60k gold will make you look even better.
But when the major of Fancytown gives you the town's legendary sword so that you can slay the troll hordes attacking their town... Well, you'll be handing the trolls some BBQ sauce on your way out of town.
But when the major of Fancytown gives you the town's legendary sword so that you can slay the troll hordes attacking their town... Well, you'll be handing the trolls some BBQ sauce on your way out of town.
This made me laugh so hard it almost hurt cause thats would be exactly what i would be doing.
I think the polls are pretty messy because the OP decided to add the (tendencies) section. Would have liked to see the results for strictly pure alignments
@ghostowl That was the whole point of the poll, since (as I mentioned in my OP) alignment tendencies are "messy." I created polls for each of the moral alignments to see the nuances in how people roleplay their characters' alignments. I created separate polls because they only allow for 10 categories. I think it worked out quite well.
I've really enjoyed reading all of the responses and sharing thoughts with those who've posted here. I think it illustrates how AD&D/D&D encourages philosophical discussion and critical thinking in its players.
Comments
Also,just to mention it again.
Warm beds+food = Not really in issue in games really. Not only in PC games,i know alot of DMs in RP-groups that even forget that food and beds cost gold and just don't check if the players have really paid or not...sadly.
So taking gold from a family that has nothing left, just so the hero can buy new gear,not really shiny example for good. So i expect Lawful and neutral good characters to refuse to take the money. Chaotic good may take it.
What i said earlier what gets me most is more the point that there are People (Like my mentioned friend earlier) who expect to be rewarded extra in a game for being extra good.
Like they should be some point in a game where an Angel Descend from the Sky and says "Bless you HeroName,You have refused to take money from this who need it more and have given some coins to the poor.For this ,Have this giant pot of Gold"
.....................Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-No i don't think so.
From a game mechanic point seen i always thought that restricted Artifacts were a good example for how to keep people doing good deeds.Like the powerful sword against evil that could only be worn by Lawful good characters (An alignment which is easily lost in Pen &Paper or some NWN games when you get out of line to much) . Also some games try to (but rarely succeed) celebrate a good hero in making him Famous so he get Positive reactions from Farmers,villagers,nobels etc. (works better in Pen & Paper) which is also a nice way of rewarding them.
So all i am saying is good Players who play always good should get Fame ,personal satification, and the normal common rewards for killing bad guys
Evil Players should get more loot due to not giving away any money and even demanding (or threatining) for more rewards.And the freedom of not beeing restricted to any moral or codes (unless you play lawful Evil and serve a dark god/nation of course) .
But in the end its everybodys own choice if they like to play a Hero or a villain more and what they find more fitting.
As a somewhat tangential issue, I am currently playing a somewhat 'Evil' party through BG1 and am finding it tough to manage reputation.
To start off, I have a CE Half-Orc as Charname. So 8 Rep to start. I immediately added Viccy for a -2 bringing me down to 6. Monty got nicked attempting to pick pockets once and we had to kill the guy, taking us down to 4. I paid to restore rep back to 6 and then picked up Dorn. So then I was back to 4 again. I also encountered a member of the Sacred Heart in the wilderness who attacked me straight away and had to be killed.
I've since paid my way back up to 7 (including at least one charitable act) but when I was at 4, I made the mistake of going into town at Nashkal. The Flaming Fist auto-aggroed. I ran away, but now even with my 7 rep, they automatically attack. There should absolutely be a way to reset the Agro level of any non-combatant. Either charm should reset it until such time as there is a reason to re-agro, or time should likewise reset. I'd even be happy if certain events, such as resolving the Mines issue would reset the global variable?
I am concerned that the assassin who attacks the party after Mulahay is dealt with will end up being (a) a tough battle including the Flaming fist and (b) tank my rep once again because each FF death cumulatively wracks up negatives.
Any thoughts?
About your other stuff. i'm afraid i don't know how to help you with that.
I startet my playtrough with an NE Mage and tried to hold the rep at 7 or 8 at all time since i also wanted to keep Imoen and Neera in the group (First for being the Party thief and the Second cause i liked her antics) .Also i always thought the Rep system was a little bit broken. i mean you start with a rep of 8 when CE even though you never left your home so your "rep" could not spread? and then you pick up an half-orc and a drow and suddenly the flaming fist is everywhere saying that you have to "Pay for your crimes"? (okok granted to get the drow you had to kill a knight but geez.).
If you don't want to get in Alignment trouble all i can think of is the general advise that is common for most gamers: Save Early,Save often and plan accordingly.
@Elendar . That is very much true but if i remember correctly it gets better in BG2 so maybe give it then a try
If Nashkel is off-limits for you then just avoid it for now. As an outlaw, boldly strolling into town is not the smartest move. You can always come back for revenge when you're stronger. If you need to turn in a quest, make yourself invisible before journeying there.
Basically, as I finish bounties, what I have been doing is have Edwin cast invisibility on Charname and then have the rest of the party hide out of sight. The now Invisible Charname goes to the main road and watches until the Flaming Fist pass by and then initiate conversation. That works fine so long as I (a) don't enter town from the north and (b) don't get involved in any time consuming activities such as having a fight which lasts long enough for the FF to complete their circuit. But it's all good. I can manage it from there.
I figured that I would merely have to avoid Nashkal from now on. I have been pretty much making Beregost as my base of operations since picking up Dorn anyway. There is close proximity to a temple and to a decent store, so it's all good. And yeah, it's the price I pay for the company I keep.
As I stated, I'd think the smart way of doing it would be that Charm Person should make them favorable towards the party until it expires, then it should return the target to their default state, rather than their last state. That way, you could charm pick pocket victims into passivity rather than forcing the party to kill the poor sod if you fail. This would solve a lot of ills associated with the Rep system as you could charm your way out of a low rep as well. Otherwise, some global event such as solving the Nashkal mines problem should likewise give you a new lease on life. Instead, the FF just judge you by how you were the last time they saw you. Or "once a criminal, always a criminal" which is just plain wrong.
The Rep system isn't ideal on a number of different levels. I'd personally have written it differently if I had my way. but I don't, and it is a small price to pay for an otherwise awesome game. And since I am intent on doing both Dorn's and Baeloth's quests this play-through, I am more or less stuck. I'm sure once I start doing more of the main story line, My rep will climb to unreasonably high levels anyway.
Agreed about Rep as well. I'm not a big fan of the alignment system in general, to be honest. But I think it's made this way so that players don't have to struggle with the morality of slaughtering hordes of goblins and can just accept that if it's labeled Evil it's probably okay to kill.
uh.. not to burst your bubble but i have already finished my Evil playthrough and can surely tell you that it doesn't work that way. You get very low rep in the Main quest that it hardly matters, its more the Side quests that can help you with that (like bringing a found ring back to her owner instead of selling it etc..)
but that would not really fit for an evil group so buying your rep is probatly the other way to go. But if you can make the playthrough even with the broken rep system would be all the more impressive.
Only really Rep changing Event (both ways i believe) that i can remember was at the end of the Cloakwood mines.so just be careful then.
Still, with as powerful as the Evil NPCs are, and the fact that I have really been working on socking away XP early, I feel relatively prepared for anything the game throws at me.
"Stay out of my way and you won't get hurt. Look at me funny, and I'll burn out your eyes."
I think the only difference between my Charname and a neutral-evil Charname is that mine genuinely enjoys watching "weaklings" suffer and squirm under his mighty sorcerous powers. It's more than being selfish, and not about being stupid "runkillhere"--it's about power, the glee that comes from showing off this power, and doing whatever it takes to attain such power with little to no regard for others' lives.
Sarevock is a brilliant example of a smart Chaotic Evil. He is cunning and devious, and he won't go entirely out of his way to harm some innocent puppy. He has bigger fish to fry, larger towers to topple, a whole nation of unsuspecting victims just waiting to be sacrificed in his grand scheme. Heck, if he wasn't trying to succeed Bhaal, he and my Charname would probably be best evil buddies. But of course, there can only be one Lord of Murder, and as my Charname so eloquently puts it, "It's going to be me."
Proper evil would mean waiting until the right time to betray someone - having people believe you are a good guy will really help with this. Helping an old lady rescue her cat will take 5 minutes of your time and will fool people into thinking you are an upstanding citizen. Turning down her 10 gold reward when you already have 60k gold will make you look even better.
But when the major of Fancytown gives you the town's legendary sword so that you can slay the troll hordes attacking their town... Well, you'll be handing the trolls some BBQ sauce on your way out of town.
Go to http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3996/what-is-your-pc-s-alignment/p1 if you want to see a poll that shows a distribution of the nine core alignments and players' preferences.
I've really enjoyed reading all of the responses and sharing thoughts with those who've posted here. I think it illustrates how AD&D/D&D encourages philosophical discussion and critical thinking in its players.