Level One

pixie359

I have always wondered what it means to be level one in a class, especially when people talk about what makes most sense for Charname given their background.

I tend to think that it is not a great deal more than a bit of natural talent, an inclination and maybe a bit of dancing around in the mirror, especially in the case of the fighter and rogue classes. I guess mages and clerics are a bit different as they already have spells, which take quite a bit of learning or praying.

Thoughts? Is a level one monk a black belt or a guy who has read about Eastern mysticism?

Permidion_Stark

A level one monk is a guy who runs up to someone, slaps him then runs away and hides behind his friends until the fight is over.

Lord_Tansheron

From what I understand, even though BG1 starts at level 1, you do need considerable work to get to that level. You're not just a random person deciding to be your class starting today. You can assume that the many years at Candlekeep were spent training and studying, and eventually refining skills into a what it takes to be lvl1.

atcDave

I think a level one character has had several years of training, but no practical experience.

In PnP a lot of things about average levels are more thoroughly explained. Like the average town guardsman or soldier being 0-level. A Sgt or professional soldier might be 2nd or 3rd level. 4th level and up is getting to be an officer or elite soldier. By the time you get to high level (8+ level) you're dealing with a pretty small minority of professionals. And very high level (13+) is the extraordinary few.
Balancing in any CRPG is always a bit different. Just for starters, average soldiers and guardsmen are way scaled up, presumably to make them more of a threat so players will behave themselves. And of course the whole world seems to scale up over the course of the saga. Ideally, a party of super high level adventurers messing in the affairs of the gods would only be challenged by a rare few, or the gods themselves. But a CRPG continues to make even common fights a little challenging.
Some of the impact of that is a steady stream of treasure and meaningful experience even at high levels. In PnP, when common soldiers are worth 30 xp, a 13th level character has to do a stupid amount of killing to gain a level. I've actually played characters who spent years of real time between levels at the high end. The game is about the adventure and fun of it; not amassing experience and loot so much.

dib

@actDave Out of curiosity, would there be anything stopping a high level party in PnP from like slaughtering a whole city like Baldur's Gate or Athkatla?

IkMarc

atcDave said:

The game is about the adventure and fun of it; not amassing experience and loot so much.

Even though I see your point, I suppose this is more true for PnP. I think especially in CRPGs building up the character is a large part of the fun. This emphasis might be stronger in CRPGs because they lack the social interaction that PnP brings.

atcDave

dib said:

@actDave Out of curiosity, would there be anything stopping a high level party in PnP from like slaughtering a whole city like Baldur's Gate or Athkatla?

Funny you'd ask, in my earliest gaming days I was a part of some pretty outrageous schemes!

In my experience, if a DM doesn't want you doing something, you will fail. The DM owns the world, and if he suddenly decides the local duke has a Red Dragon, or Arch-Angel on speed-dial there's nothing a lowly player can do to prove it wasn't always meant to be.
Games generally worked best as co-operative venture between players and DM. Its also worth noting, 2E rules specifically say evil alignments should not be allowed for player characters. That alone makes certain things more manageable!

Lateralus

Level 1 is a high school graduate.

A level 1 monk rode the short bus.

atcDave

IkMarc said:

atcDave said:

The game is about the adventure and fun of it; not amassing experience and loot so much.

Even though I see your point, I suppose this is more true for PnP. I think especially in CRPGs building up the character is a large part of the fun. This emphasis might be stronger in CRPGs because they lack the social interaction that PnP brings.

yeah I agree with that ikMark. CRPGs are different in many ways. Lacking a lot of the social context, they become much more about the mechanics and tactics.
In PnP, you will likely have just a single big battle in a game session (and maybe a couple little ones leading to it) and a whole lot of role playing and interaction. Improvement, both levels and equipment, usually come slowly. A CRPG may have one big battle after another. And that means levels and gear come a lot faster. It's a ton of fun, just in a very different way.

Shin

atcDave said:

The game is about the adventure and fun of it; not amassing experience and loot so much.

While commonly true, it should be kept in mind that for some people amassing experience and loot is what makes the game adventurous and fun - and then obviously that's how they should play it. Some people enjoy exploring goblin caves, clearing kobolds and and hunting bandits, while others want campaigns full of dragon-slaying, lich bargaining and encounters with famous characters from D&D lore.

atcDave

Shin said:

atcDave said:

The game is about the adventure and fun of it; not amassing experience and loot so much.

While commonly true, it should be kept in mind that for some people amassing experience and loot is what makes the game adventurous and fun - and then obviously that's how they should play it. Some people enjoy exploring goblin caves, clearing kobolds and and hunting bandits, while others want campaigns full of dragon-slaying, lich bargaining and encounters with famous characters from D&D lore.

Obviously style of play will vary a lot based on campaign, scenario and DM. Of course I was speaking of high level PnP play in the previous example, CRPGs will always be more about individual character development and pure combat tactics (and yes, that mostly means loot and experience). By comparison, PnP will always be slower, and more about the role playing and social experience. You just can't blow through a battle every five minutes like you can in a CRPG. I have played PnP games we referred to as "bomb it, pave it" games, where we were just constantly in combat. But is much less common than in CRPGs.

[Deleted User]

dib said:

Out of curiosity, would there be anything stopping a high level party in PnP from like slaughtering a whole city like Baldur's Gate or Athkatla?

The DMG advises you that it's likely that your party isn't the first group of high-level adventurers the world has seen, and so there may be bigger fish or cities/towns may have had trouble in the past and come up with plans of action in case a group of adventurers starts throwing their weight around or going on a rampage. How this manifests depends on the DM. I've played under DMs where practically every bartender, innkeeper, or store owner is a retired high level adventurer ready and able to cream a group if they try anything funny. I've also played under DMs who will let you get away with anything right up until you go on a killing spree in the middle of a large city or capital, at which point the fantasy equivalent of a special forces squad shows up to neutralize the party. I prefer the "bit of rope" model, where every evil act the players do is a piece of rope that I weave into a noose to hang them with once they've given me enough (this also works for good parties, where every interference in the villain's plans makes them a little more aware of the party until the party is both annoying enough and identifiable enough to swat directly).

the_spyder

I generally believe what @atcDave indicated.

Level 1 is someone who has trained in a profession but hasn't got any practical experience. This goes for all classes. learning how to put on armor is one thing. Learning how to live in it for 8 hours a day isn't something that you just fall of a turnip truck knowing.

Fighters have to learn a whole host of martial skills and become "Proficient" in martial weapons. Thieves have to learn not only to be sneaky, but how to wear armor, say out of combat while still actually doing damage and all of the host of tinkering (lock picking, trap removal etc...) that they do.

Specialty classes like Paladins and Rangers have to learn a good deal more before they become level 1. Just the ability to wear armor and swing a sword doesn't bring the Devotional discipline necessary to martial the Divine skills that they present. Clerics also have to spend years in their version of a seminary learning all of the prayers and such to worship their gods. Wizards, goes without saying. It takes more than simple reading to 'Cast' spells, let alone memorize them.

I'd say that level 1 is the equivalent to at minimum a 2 year training in trade school or equivalent. You now have the fundamental basics of a profession but don't really know what the world has in store for you. And Specialty classes a minimum of 4 year study in some kind of formalized school. Not to say that a thief would 'necessarily' go to school, but they have to learn their trade somewhere.

Edit: Removed 'College' and changed to trade school. Makes more sense considering the setting.

sarevok57

in the 3.0 and 3.5 edition manuals, they have minimum years that classes can be for certain races, and that's probably on the basis of the training it takes for those races to start at level 1 at a certain age

atcDave

sarevok57 said:

in the 3.0 and 3.5 edition manuals, they have minimum years that classes can be for certain races, and that's probably on the basis of the training it takes for those races to start at level 1 at a certain age

1E and 2E both do the same thing.

sarevok57

ah I see, most interesting, I've never really played those editions in pnp, I only have ever played 3.0 and 3.5 in pnp

atcDave

Yeah BG just sort of punts the issue and never defines age precisely.