Carsomyr!! (Warning: Math ahead)
Dee
Member Posts: 10,447
This discussion was created from comments split from: Does the Blackguard get anything special?.
Post edited by Dee on
1
Comments
1.) FoA +5
2.) Ravager / Carsomyr
3.) Everything else
The reason FoA +5, Carsomyr +5/+6 and Ravager ranks so high are because of their special abilities.
FoA +5 = That elemental damage is insane, but the slow part is the most amazing thing with this weapon. It slows golems, spell casters, dragons, everything. Not to mention the elemental damage goes through shields so it's one of the most efficient weapons to fight mages with.
Carsomyr = 50% magic resistance would make this weapon worth it alone. But you also have a wonderful ability to dispel magic on hit with no save throw. This weapon shreds mages and everything else that either buffs or casts spells.
Ravager = Amazing damage but look at that instant kill ability. That thing takes down Draconis and all the other frustrating bosses in one hit. It's like a vorpal blade on steroids.
The only hard enemies in this game are spell casters. Carsomyr and FoA +5 are the most efficient weapons to deal with spell casters, so that's why they are the best weapons in the game.
I can tell you where he would if he had been wielding 2 weapons, but not with carsomyr.
The damage it deals is one of the better in the game... but the overall damage dealt is much lower compared to any high tier 2 weapons character.
Its real advantage is the 50% MR and casting dispel each hit.
I am curious as to what caster level this dispell works as, if it is a low caster level then it is a mere 1% chance per hit per spell effect to dispell an effect with is simply awful.
Lots of weapons insta kill enemies with save, insta kill enemies without save, double damage vs particular enemy, provide a plethora of immunities (I really like the level drain immunity because the spell providing it only lasts a few rounds), etc etc.
10 APR : Whirlwind
You can also throw improved haste on him instead of whirlwind and sacrifice some APR for another epic ability. A paladin with carsomyr in SoA will have higher output than anyone dual wielding as there are no weapons other than FoA +3 that will deal any decent damage for most of SoA. Carsomyr +5 with Improved haste will wreck just about any dual wielding combination in SoA.
DUHM
Improved haste
Enough damage to bring anything in BG2 down.
[Edited] : You get 2 APR more (Improved haste) from dual wielding. But there are no one handed weapons in SoA with the exception of FoA +3 that will make it worth using instead of 1d12 Carsomyr.
4 APR if you're using Belm in of hand, but that will hamper your damage in the end.
A two weapon build wielding FoA in main hand will deal the most damage out of all builds in the game. But there is nothing in this game that can stand up against a Carsomyr +5/+6 with improved haste or whirlwind. So any additional damage is just over the top. It's like saying should i use 5 Abi's or 9 Abi's, 5 Abi's will obliterate anything in the game so anything more than that is not needed.
The one with Carsomyr +5 has a base 5/2 APR. His average damage is 27.5 (6.5 avg. die roll +5 magic +2 specialization +14 strength). With improved haste he gets 5 APR, so 137.5 damage per round.
The dual wielder uses the Blade of Roses and Kundane. BoR is 4.5+3+2+14=23.5 avg. damage; Kundane is 3.5+2+2+14=21.5. He gets 9/2 APR, 7/2 with BoR, 1 with Kundane. With improved haste that becomes 9 APR, 7 with BoR and 2 with Kundane. Or 164.5+43=207.5.
See, the huge strength bonus a Paladin can get with DUHM dwarfs the difference in die size and even the difference in damage bonus from the magical weapon. At that point, additional attacks do so much more for you. Even without any strength bonus, however, BoR + Kundane would still out damage Carsomyr +5 on average, with or without improved haste. The only time Carsomyr comes out ahead is with no strength bonus and normal haste, or when using (greater) whirlwind. And that's compared to a bog standard +3 longsword plus a speed weapon; there are plenty of one-handed weapons in SoA that do more damage than the Blade of Roses.
2.) There is nothing in SoA that will survive improved haste on a paladin with Carsomyr +5, and in ToB it all falls down to greater whirlwind.
3.) As i said the dual wielder will do more damage, but it'll have a problem hitting things with belm/kundane and most efficient one handed weapons don't have that many additional bonuses other than damage.
4.) Dispel magic
5.) 50% Magic resistance
A paladin wielding Carsomyr will always be better and more efficient than a paladin wielding something else.
Let's look at the hardest enemies in the game.
Mages - Carsomyr dispell the buffs and will tear them apart, except FoA +5 nothing comes close to being as good to interrupt, and then Carsomyr still got 50% magic resistance.
Dragons - Carsomyr dispells the haste and stone skin on the dragon, the 50% magic resistance will save you from the most annoying spells they cast.
Beholders / Liches - Carsomyr will stip them of their buffs and pummel them to death
Golems - A dual wielding paladin will deal more damage, but all of the golems in the game will fall easily to a Carsomyr +5 so you're only saving some seconds. Carsomyr won't be able to hit clay golems.
So a paladin should wield Carsomyr, as it is better than any dual wielding combination.
Carsomyr is definitely "good," even "great." I strongly dispute "best."
It also requires less powergaming and optimisation to use effectively than the DW alternative. To use the FoA and a speed offhand dual wielded will take at least 3 proficiency points to use, optimally 6 or 7 (depending on if you want specialisation for the offhand), while Carsomyr only really needs 2-4.
The difficulty in almost all situations is: how do I either avoid (e.g. elemental damage) or bring down (breach/dispel) the protections surrounding a fairly small HP pool. Or else which weapon do I use to deal damage to a HP pool with multiple resistances.
Carsomyr is a good general purpose weapon. It does well against casters, and does solid damage compared to other 2-handers.
Various dual wield combos using speed weapons get higher DPS. If the debate is "best", then other factors including passive buffs and immunities and on-use effects need to be discussed in context.
Some of the hardest do not really rely on DPS at all, Kangaxx for example. Even with huge DPS you'll only hit for 1-3 damage per hit. It's more about surviving or avoiding his imprisonments and bypassing immunities. The 50% MR on Carsomyr can be useful here if you don't cheese it with protection scrolls.
Fighting Fire Giants, having the Defender of Easthaven in your offhand and the Helm of the Rock/AoF is a godsend for the damage resistance, and DPS is a bit of a moot point as long as they don't splatter you.
The DPS argument is like asking a carpenter if his saw is better than his hammer. Both are useful tools in different situations.
As for Carsomyr I like it for RP reasons.
Hit analysis is both a lot of trouble, since you'd need to determine a reasonable standard of comparison amidst all the potential AC values, and largely irrelevant because dual-wielding with 2 pips doesn't affect the THAC0 of the main hand, which is where the lion's share of the damage comes from, the off-hand mainly being there to hold a speed weapon and increase the main hand's rate of attack. Furthermore, between the Paladin's high rate of THAC0 improvement and massive strength from DUHM, to say nothing of any other buffs or debuffs flying around your THAC0 quickly becomes good enough to hit any enemy easily. Carsomyr has a slight edge early on because +5 one-handed weapons are not generally available in SoA unless you venture into Watcher's Keep, but it doesn't last forever.
@Corvino They can only use Carsomyr as an easy alternative if they have enough metagame knowledge to know it exists
That being said, I agree that damage output and APR are not everything. I used to be more hardcore about damage > all, but lately I've started to reconsider. Don't get me wrong, more damage is always preferable, as are more APR; but even at the extreme end of the spectrum, difficulty-wise, there's points where differences become too small to be noticeable. I stopped dualing at 13, for example, because the 1/2 APR it gives over dual at 9 is just not enough of a gain (though a gain it is).
Carsomyr is an insane weapon to be sure. It deals a lot of damage, but that's not why it's so good. There are other weapons with similar, or higher damage; but few with as many other benefits. The 50% MR, for example, is very, very good. While it's not an I-Win-Button by any stretch, the sheer amount of randomly failed spells can be an incredible advantage; not to mention what happens when you start stacking MR. However, Carsomyr's dispel-on-hit is in fact even more powerful an effect than the MR. Short of PfMW and SI:Abj, it pretty much completely destroys enemy defenses; in my opinion, canceling Stoneskin alone would be worth using the weapon over alternatives.
APR is the only limitation for Carsomyr, really; while it's true that this lowers the damage output noticeably, it can be mitigated somewhat by GWW (what else are you going to pick anyway after a while...) and, more importantly, by the fact that there are only so many +APR offhands available. After all, you have a party, not just a single character (in the majority of cases anyway). Hand the +APR to someone else, and use Carsomyr on the only class that can use it - spread the wealth around! I've not regretted using it one bit so far, and doubt I ever will.
Mirror image, stoneskin, ironskins. Those all last X hits, high APR means they go down faster.
If you're looking for a one-handed weapon that will make your enemies sad and you like debuffing saves, use Celestial Fury; every hit forces a save or be stunned, and with the number of attacks you can throw around, you only need a small chance for them to fail their save in order to ruin their day (note: I haven't played ToB in a while, so I'm not sure how many enemies it features who ignore +3 weapons).
If you're looking for a weapon that will keep its wielder healthy, I prefer Foebane, which offers Larloch's Minor Drain (no save) on every hit, and does impressive damage against undead and extraplanar creatures.
If you are playing an Inquisitor, then you don't have DUHM to buff your Strength, and Crom Faeyr starts looking like an excellent main hand (keep in mind that it has a +5 electrical damage bonus which is not listed in its description).