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Who would win - Inquisitor or Fighter/Mage

DreadnaughtDreadnaught Member Posts: 92
in Archive (General Discussion)
Since the fighter mage is winning the fight in my other discussion I think we should carry it over to a different duel.
Fighter13/mage 20 vs Inquisitor 23
You guys let me know if the experience level is close enough to be a fair fight.
Fighter 13/20 mage (two weapon fighting-equilizer, daystar) Spell buffed
Inquisitor 22 (Two-handed Corsymer +6) Special ability Summon Deva
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Comments

  • JoeyJoey Member Posts: 201
    The inquisitor would instantly destroy the F/Ms protections, then his superior AC would mean he could easily out-tank the unhasted F/M.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Inquisitor
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    The F/M could start with si: abjuration, pfmw, improved haste and then cast time stop and likely melee the inquisitor to death before he could do much.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @shin - unless they're loaded in sequencers then that's 3 rounds of casting. Even using a non-magical weapon, give a paladin with HLAs 3 rounds to smack around a guy in a robe with no shield and it gets 1-sided.

    In short sequencers/contingencies = likely mage win

    No sequencers/contingencies = likely inquisitor win
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    As with the F/C, this fight isn't even close. Inquisitors may have all the tools to deal with AI mages, but they wouldn't have a chance against a human controlled mage who knew what they were doing.
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 508
    We would have to agree on standards of gear, since Inquisitors(and paladins in general) are far more gear dependant than mages. Carsomyr, for instance, is something I would want on my Inquisitor, but it is arguably too good for a PVP fight.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    It depends on prep time, gear and starting range. If they started out toe-to-toe with no prep time (and pretty much any gear) then the Inquisitor would kill the F/M before he even got a spell off. Unless of course the F/M had a staff of the magi for invisibility cheese.

    If the F/M had some contingencies and/or time to cast a spell or two then he should win pretty comfortably. Then again, if the Inquisitor had enough invis potions he could probably win instead.

    Of course a sensible Inquisitor would just run away until the F/M's protections wore off (and then run away again if he tried to recast them or a contingency went off). Would be a pretty dull fight, but with enough running room the Inquisitor should win every time. Cloak of Mirroring and/or luck with magic resistance would prevent the F/M doing fatal damage during a Time Stop.
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 508
    Inquisitors get true sight as a class ability, so illusion spells are pretty well guaranteed to fail.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    The mage will win because of Spell Immunity - Abjuration. And then he only needs one timestop to end the fight.

    1.) Spell Immunity - Abjuration
    2.) Stoneskin
    3.) PFMW

    One cast of timestop and he'll butcher the Inquisitor.

    The Inquisitor is incredible strong against the spellcasters in the game, but with the right combination the mage will shut him down.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Mage lvl 20 = 3 nine level spell slots at least. time stop+shapeshifter mind flayer would do the trick, also time stop+improved alchartity would do it also. The answer is easy here.

    The question is: Can the inquisitor stop the time stop casting? if he can maybe he has a chance (based on the pre-made chain contingency) if he can't stop the time stop he's dead.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    kamuizin said:

    Mage lvl 20 = 3 nine level spell slots at least. time stop+shapeshifter mind flayer would do the trick, also time stop+improved alchartity would do it also. The answer is easy here.

    The question is: Can the inquisitor stop the time stop casting? if he can maybe he has a chance (based on the pre-made chain contingency) if he can't stop the time stop he's dead.

    You wouldn't even need to shapeshift to kill the Inquisitor, Improved haste with belm in of hand and FoA +5 in main hand will destroy the Inquisitor as you'll hit every attack under Timestop.

    With the right protection spells (Elemental against FoA) there is no way the Inquisitor could stop him unless he lands an instant kill with the Ravager.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    karnor00 said:

    It depends on prep time, gear and starting range. If they started out toe-to-toe with no prep time (and pretty much any gear) then the Inquisitor would kill the F/M before he even got a spell off. Unless of course the F/M had a staff of the magi for invisibility cheese.

    I disagree. You can easily outnumber Inquisitor dispels with loads of Stoneskin and PfMW casts (5 lvl4 + 4 lvl6 slots without +spell levels equipment). Bait the dispels patiently, and save protections for when they've spent all six. From then you're safe enough to cast whatever you want.
    karnor00 said:

    Of course a sensible Inquisitor would just run away until the F/M's protections wore off (and then run away again if he tried to recast them or a contingency went off). Would be a pretty dull fight, but with enough running room the Inquisitor should win every time. Cloak of Mirroring and/or luck with magic resistance would prevent the F/M doing fatal damage during a Time Stop.

    As a F/M you should only be so lucky to have the Inquisitor running away. If they run away, you win instantly. Nothing an Inquisitor has will prevent them dying in one Time Stop. As soon as TS goes off, the fight is over. Remember, this is a FIGHTER/Mage. Cloak of Mirroring? Who cares. Under TS every attack is an automatic hit, and besides AC Inquisitors have nothing to protect them. At lvl23 their maximum HP is 142 (10+9d10+42); Time Stop lasts 3 rounds. Even assuming you only get 2 rounds worth of hits in (spending the rest running after the Inquisitor) that's still 10 attacks unhasted. You'd need 14.2 average damage per hit to kill the Inquisitor during that time, which is laughably low; you can easily get more than twice that. That means even with an active Hardiness (-40% physical damage), the Inquisitor will not survive. You could stack more physical resistance with Defender of Easthaven, but even that would only let you *barely* survive, and only in the best case scenario. Not to mention that as soon as Time Stop ends, you get hit by a Dragon's Breath in the face (which bypasses magic resistance) for whatever HP you may have left. Alternatively the F/M could also just cast a second Time Stop (still some protection spells left) and do it all over. Use Wish->Time Stop for even more fun (double duration)!

    Time Stop really is the dealbreaker in these discussions. There is nothing a player character can do against it legitimately, except with extensive pre-buffs and/or contingencies or Time Stops of their own. I doubt that any PC can survive a TS from a F/M or F->M in any scenario.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited October 2013
    Unfortunately for the F/M today, the Inquisitor borrowed the Griffon Shield from the tomb of the founder of his order, Eric the Defender. As an Inquisitor, he is trained to recognize the incantations of powerful spells, so once he hears the Time Stop incantation, he activates the Griffon Shield, creating an impregnable force field around the Inquisitor. Once the Time Stop ends with the Inquisitor unscathed, he slaughters the evil F/M with the Purifier. :-)

    [SPOILER]After all the pictures in the Adventurer's Mart in BG2 establish that the kids were in the world of Baldur's Gate![/SPOILER]
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Inquisitor chugs invis potion while runing away. Firstly the F/M would need to cast time stop, and then follow up with true sight to find out where the Inquisitor even ran to. Then it's going to take at least a round to catch the Inquisitor, possibly more depending on how far apart they started. With less than one round of damage, he's probably not going to kill the Inquisitor before time stop runs out.

    From spell progression chart I'm looking at, a mage only gets 2 level 9 spells at level 20. A dual class mage can't be a specialist or sorceror. Now granted if they could chain both time stops together there's not much the Inquisitor could do, but without both timestops the F/M is toast.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    karnor00 said:

    Inquisitor chugs invis potion while runing away. Firstly the F/M would need to cast time stop, and then follow up with true sight to find out where the Inquisitor even ran to. Then it's going to take at least a round to catch the Inquisitor, possibly more depending on how far apart they started. With less than one round of damage, he's probably not going to kill the Inquisitor before time stop runs out.

    From spell progression chart I'm looking at, a mage only gets 2 level 9 spells at level 20. A dual class mage can't be a specialist or sorceror. Now granted if they could chain both time stops together there's not much the Inquisitor could do, but without both timestops the F/M is toast.

    When that Inquisitor starts running i'll just sit on my arse, summon up my 4 skeletal warriors and 1 planetar.

    The least thing the Inquisitor want to do is to give the mage even MORE time, you'll want to attack as soon as possible and try to find an opening to break down his defense before timestop.

    Not to mention you can.

    Timestop
    True Sight
    Timestop
    Beat the Inquisitor to a pulp.

    [Edited] :

    Even without timestop the F/M would still win because of Spell Immunity - Abjuration, Stoneskin and PFMW. Not to mention Improved Haste.

    You guys seem to forget that a 13 Fighter with improved haste is better in close combat than a 20 something Inquisitor.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    SionIV said:

    When that Inquisitor starts running i'll just sit on my arse, summon up my 4 skeletal warriors and 1 planetar.

    Whee, the Inquisitor has run way out of range. And he's still running. He'll probably wait around for a few hours and then come back invisible (i.e. well beyond the time you could still be throwing up true sight spells to try and detect him coming back). So at some point an Inquisitor is just going to appear beside you and whack you to a pulp.

    Oh, and your planetar spell has incidentally reduced you to just the one time stop.

    But I would agree that Timestop > Truesight > Timestop should be unstoppable. I can't see anything else working however.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    karnor00 said:

    SionIV said:

    When that Inquisitor starts running i'll just sit on my arse, summon up my 4 skeletal warriors and 1 planetar.

    Whee, the Inquisitor has run way out of range. And he's still running. He'll probably wait around for a few hours and then come back invisible (i.e. well beyond the time you could still be throwing up true sight spells to try and detect him coming back). So at some point an Inquisitor is just going to appear beside you and whack you to a pulp.

    Oh, and your planetar spell has incidentally reduced you to just the one time stop.

    But I would agree that Timestop > Truesight > Timestop should be unstoppable. I can't see anything else working however.

    If you're going to use tactics like running away for a few hours, the battle is already won. Put them both into the druid arena.

    The F/M will win 9/10 because of arcane spells being too powerful in this game to the point of breaking it. The Inquisitor is a very powerful character, but nothing wins against an arcane caster.
  • ChildofBhaal599ChildofBhaal599 Member Posts: 1,781
    What if we assumed that the Mage doesn't know this is an inquisitor. He probably wouldn't realize to use si- ab when pally looks no different than fighter
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Well in the druid arena things would be very interesting. No equipment, all buffs stripped on arrival and starting right next to each other.

    Most of the F/M spells will be too slow to cast while the Inquisitor is hitting him. Neither of them will have enough AC to avoid every attack being a hit (short of a critical miss). The F/M could maybe get off stoneskin or invis, but Inquisitor dispel/true sight can immediately take care of those. All of the F/M high level spells (such as timestop) would probably take much too long to cast.

    Lower level F/M spells may get cast before interruption, but I doubt they would do enough damage to keep up with the Inquisitor bare hand attacks, but this would depend largely on how strong the Inquisitor is.

    The Inquisitor can't really risk using GWW because he needs to keep his action for the round available to remove F/M buffs.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Even without time stop, the fighter/mage has still the better chances in this duel. It's a fighter mage after all, not a pure mage.

    The easier way to bypass timestop is by identifying it's cast based on the ligths in the F/M hand and drinking a invisible potion while wearing cloak of non detection, that would make the time stop be wasted. However weapon imunnities spells can't be dispelled with dispel magic, if the F/M has a proper chain contingency set (protection from magical weapons, spell immunity necromancy, improved haste), taking in fact ToB characters normally are immune to +1 or less weapons (even as evil i normally go for this choice) i doubt the inquisitor to be able to kill the F/M.

    Either way, he would need to choose between ravager for instant kill stoppable with spell immunity necromancy as far as i know or Holy Avenger to dispel on hit.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    If prebuffs and/or contingencies/sequencers are allowed, like others said, the f/m will have spell immunity:abjuration, Inquisitor's all powerful dispel magic will not touch the f/m. Add protection from magic weapons+stoneskin and the inquisitor can't hit the f/m. While the f/m can decimate him with offensive spells, even with meleeing since the inquisitor can't fight back=his hardiness and armor of faith will reduce the damage he takes from attacks, but not negate it.

    If the inquisitor can somehow cast a ruby ray of reversal at the f/m, he can break his spell immunity, and then dispel him easily.

    If both starts from zero, with no buffs, no contingency/sequencer allowed for the f/m. In this situation, Inquisitor will kill the f/m. F/m first will cast a spell to protect himself, be it stoneskin, protection from magic weapons, invisibility, mirror image, mislead, etc. and the Inquisitor will just dispel him. Then the next round a greater whirlwind attack will disrupt and slay the f/m.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Contingency/Sequencers should ofcourse be allowed. No pre buffing before combat, but saying that they can't use Contingency/Sequencer is like saying the Inquisitor can't use dispel magic.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    lunar said:


    If both starts from zero, with no buffs, no contingency/sequencer allowed for the f/m. In this situation, Inquisitor will kill the f/m. F/m first will cast a spell to protect himself, be it stoneskin, protection from magic weapons, invisibility, mirror image, mislead, etc. and the Inquisitor will just dispel him. Then the next round a greater whirlwind attack will disrupt and slay the f/m.

    Then i presume no special weapons or items to be put in the equation, what takes off Holy Avenger and Ravager. Inquisitors dispel magic has cast time if i'm not wrong, it's not instant cast, so it's also not so simple. Even in this scenario the F/M would probally still win i guess.
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 508
    Inquisitor dispel is so fast it might as well be instant. It's either instant or has a cast time of 1 or 2.
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    The inquisitor has 1 BIG weapon vs Arcane magic users, dispel magic, but versus spell immunity:abjuration it's like shooting with a gun with no bullets.

    Let's imagine that the f/m has no spell immunity:abjuration. Who's gonna be alive in the end?
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited October 2013
    karnor00 said:

    Well in the druid arena things would be very interesting. No equipment, all buffs stripped on arrival and starting right next to each other.

    Most of the F/M spells will be too slow to cast while the Inquisitor is hitting him. Neither of them will have enough AC to avoid every attack being a hit (short of a critical miss). The F/M could maybe get off stoneskin or invis, but Inquisitor dispel/true sight can immediately take care of those. All of the F/M high level spells (such as timestop) would probably take much too long to cast.

    Lower level F/M spells may get cast before interruption, but I doubt they would do enough damage to keep up with the Inquisitor bare hand attacks, but this would depend largely on how strong the Inquisitor is.

    The Inquisitor can't really risk using GWW because he needs to keep his action for the round available to remove F/M buffs.

    Again, this does nothing to help the Inquisitor win. Any mage with half a brain would fill all available slots with protection spells, as you only need to get off one Time Stop to win, regardless of who you are going to face. You will always have more spells than the Inquisitor can dispel with his innate skill, and they are all so fast it's basically impossible to interrupt them.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Imo if you have to start talking about the inquisitor resorting to running away for a few hours or the f/m not having access to certain spells, that just serves to underline what has already been suggested earlier in this thread, i.e. how much of a non-contest this is.

    This also ties into what has been discussed in other difficulty-disccusion threads, that the vanilla AI is terrible at playing arcane casters efficiently, which is also likely why a lot of newer players underestimate them.
    F/M is a class combination with high amounts of synergy and very few exploitable weaknesses, and often it's not until you experience one played intelligently against you that you realize just how difficult they can be to deal with.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The reason these X vs. Y threads never amount to anything is that the game was never designed around player characters fighting each other. There's so many balance issues I don't even know where to begin...
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    The reason these X vs. Y threads never amount to anything is that the game was never designed around player characters fighting each other. There's so many balance issues I don't even know where to begin...

    That, and it's just common forum tendencies to have certain discussions go on and on. Many threads (e.g. how does thac0 work?) essentially get answered in the first 2-3 replies, but then extend a few more pages anyway.
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