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BG2:EE No more 9th lvl or HLA spells without 18 int

BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
edited October 2013 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Since devs are finally fixing the missing intelligence limitation when learning spells, i.e. in BG2:EE you cannot learn or cast 9th level spells unless you have at least 18 int, Neera, Aerie, Imoen, Jan and Nalia can't cast these any more. Since most HLAs occupy 9th level spells slots, you can't use them either. Since Neera, Imoen and Nalia have 17 int, you can raise them to 18 fairly easily with Golden Ioun Stone that can be acquired in Saradush. Aerie and Jan however, can't really reach 18 without some extra effort.

I think its good to fix obvious bugs, but personally I think fixing this one has a major negative impact on the NPC choices you have in the game. Edwin just becomes too good, as if he wasn't already...

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Above is incorrect. Only scribing spells is affected by the limitation. So you can temporarily increase your Intelligence with potions for example to scribe spells and then cast them just fine afterwards. Also HLAs aren't affected at all.
Post edited by Bercon on
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Comments

  • SkydogSkydog Member Posts: 111
    And what about sorcerers?
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    I strongly support this change, but I do feel that Edwin needs to lose his extra spells or something in order to balance him with Neera. Even if Wild Mages are arguably the best pure casters, they can't really complete with +2 extra spells.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Sorcerers are unaffected; it only affects spells you can write into your spellbook from scrolls; so sorcerers (being the innately talented barmeys that they are) can learn spells normally as they gain levels.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    Indeed, for Aerie and Jan its not such a big deal. They don't even usually get 9th level spells until late into ToB because of the amount of experience it takes. But I think the disparity between Neera, Imoen and Nalia vs. Edwin becomes a bit too large. If you happen to have more than one of the first three, you don't have Golden Ioun Stones to go around. The only other opportunity to get +1 int I'm aware of is in Watcher's Keep and is fairly hard to find.
  • SkydogSkydog Member Posts: 111
    @Dee
    But the OP mentions HLAs won't be available as well.
    Is that true? (I mean "not available w/o 18 int")
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    Well, you could still just pop a potion of genius or mind focusing and then scribe.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Hm. No, the HLAs will still work fine. Intelligence limits what spells you can write into your spellbook; anything that's already there, you can cast just fine.

    This also, for example, means that you could use a Potion of Genius when writing your spells and not have to worry about it. Edwin can do it without potions (whether this makes him a real genius or just someone who's spent a bit of time twinking his character sheet, I'll leave to you to decide).
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    Ah, so the limitation is only applied when scribing spells? Not when you are casting? If so then I think this might actually be a good change. Finally we have some serious use for those potions.
  • dibdib Member Posts: 384
    Good, strength, constitution and dexterity shouldn't be the only stats that matter. Shouldn't sorcerers be limited by charisma or something though, or is that just a 3rd edition thing?
  • SkydogSkydog Member Posts: 111
    edited October 2013
    @Dee
    Thanks for clarifying the things)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    @dib: I believe it is a 3E thing, yes. In BG Sorcerers have no "important" stat, so you can focus on STR, DEX, CON for their obvious bonuses and completely ignore everything else.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2013
    You can check it out in Intmod.2da, but this is a summary of what level of amount of intelligence corresponds with the maximum spell level of scroll you can memorize (without using potions of course). 


    INT/Max Spell Level
    0-8  	:0
    9	:4
    10	:5
    11	:5
    12	:6
    13	:6
    14	:7
    15	:7
    16	:8
    17	:8
    18	:9

    Post edited by elminster on
  • PalanthisPalanthis Member Posts: 283
    edited October 2013
    Shin said:

    I'd think it's good that intelligence gets somewhat more of an impact as a primary stat for mages, even though it's mainly a penalty for having less than 18.

    i'm might be the only one to think that INT is more important for the "% to Learn Spell" attribute ? I mean, what do we care the level of spells we can get without potions, if Garrick already has trouble to learn the basic magic missile spell in BGEE ?
    Also, Aerie and Jan have like 25% chance of failure as well.

    But don't get me wrong. Joke aside, i'm glad to see another step closer to PnP has been made :)
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    I like the change, diversity (both negative and positive affecting the player) adds flavor. That and Dee's point about them being multiclass. And you can still get them to 18 with the right combination of items / Lum The Mad's Machine..
  • PalanthisPalanthis Member Posts: 283
    edited October 2013
    I think the real question with Edwin is balancing him with Charname. There is no way a mage Charname can compete with him, no matter we try (especially in BG2).

    But unfortunately, even though i think a lot of players feel, like i do, that he's really overcheated (more than any other NPC actually), the devs can't change him because of their contract (or so i think).
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    Palanthis said:

    I think the real question with Edwin is balancing him with Charname. There is no way a mage Charname can compete with him, no matter we try (especially in BG2).

    But unfortunately, even though i think a lot of players feel, like i do, that he's really overcheated (more than any other NPC actually), the devs can't change him because of their contract (or so i think).

    I disagree. Are you assuming charname is a mage? If so, he has innates and (later) slayer form. If you aren't assuming he's a mage, well, there's many ways to skin a red wizard of Thay...

  • PalanthisPalanthis Member Posts: 283
    You're right.
    Still, it's a bit too much to my taste to see, for example, that as soon as Edwin hit the 18th level, he has 4 level-9 spells to cast per day.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    I wish height of intelligence would actually influence spell damage/duration/saving throws etc., that would be awesome..
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Schneidend said:

    Haaahahaha, no more stat-dumping for the smart guy. And Tiax goes on to rule!

    With a combination of a Potion of Genius and a Potion of Mind Focussing (both of which can be bought in a number of the different temples in BG2) someone with 11 intelligence could raise their intelligence to 18. I don't think functionally this change changes much. People can still use intelligence as a dump stat.

    Though Tiax does indeed go on to rule. Tiax rules all!
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    elminster said:



    With a combination of a Potion of Genius and a Potion of Mind Focussing (both of which can be bought in a number of the different temples in BG2) someone with 11 intelligence could raise their intelligence to 18. I don't think functionally this change changes much. People can still use intelligence as a dump stat.

    Though Tiax does indeed go on to rule. Tiax rules all!

    Ugh, the thought of somebody dropping Intelligence to 11, buying Int potions, and using them every time their character rests to regain spells makes me physically ill.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited October 2013
    Schneidend said:

    elminster said:



    With a combination of a Potion of Genius and a Potion of Mind Focussing (both of which can be bought in a number of the different temples in BG2) someone with 11 intelligence could raise their intelligence to 18. I don't think functionally this change changes much. People can still use intelligence as a dump stat.

    Though Tiax does indeed go on to rule. Tiax rules all!

    Ugh, the thought of somebody dropping Intelligence to 11, buying Int potions, and using them every time their character rests to regain spells makes me physically ill.
    Hey I'm an 18/19'er (I always play a mage with at least 18 intelligence), I'm just saying that functionally people could get away with 11 intelligence and still get the spells they want.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    They'd wouldn't need to use potions whenever they regained spells, just when they wanted to add new spells to their spellbook.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    i think it is so minor change that it hardly even matter

    aerie gains level 9 spells probably late in tob

    jan like aerie

    level 8765 spells are still too powerfull to balance other classes and such a small nerf is almost nothing
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    Palanthis said:

    I think the real question with Edwin is balancing him with Charname. There is no way a mage Charname can compete with him, no matter we try (especially in BG2).

    But unfortunately, even though i think a lot of players feel, like i do, that he's really overcheated (more than any other NPC actually), the devs can't change him because of their contract (or so i think).

    He can't cast Identify. Now that sir is just plain annoying.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Kaigen said:

    They'd wouldn't need to use potions whenever they regained spells, just when they wanted to add new spells to their spellbook.

    What?! Don't they need their Int to be high enough to have the slots, too?
  • CurmudgeonCurmudgeon Member Posts: 57
    edited October 2013
    Column 1 => Intelligence Stat
    Column 2 => Spell Scribing % Chance
    Column 3 => Number of Spells Learnable/Level
    Column 4 => Spell Level Learnable (Bug Fix - Thanks, Dee)

    17 - 75% - 14/Lvl - Lvl 8
    18 - 85% - 18/Lvl - Lvl 9
    19 - 95% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    20 - 96% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    21 - 97% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    22 - 98% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    23 - 99% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    24 - 100% - No Limit - Lvl 9
    25 - 100% - No Limit - Lvl 9

    This bug fix, while desirable, doesn't seem to have much practical impact, as using potions to get your INT temporarily to 24 when scribing scrolls into your spellbook mitigates all of the INT restrictions. Personally, I almost always chug potions so that when scribing a rare or expensive scroll, or any scroll for that matter, I do not risk a failure. Once a spell is scribed into your spellbook you can use that spell even if your INT is in the low teens. It would be interesting (as a mod idea perhaps) if higher INT made spells more potent or, as ikMarc mentioned above, improved saving throw penalties on offensive spells, or bonus spells memorizable on resting (as is done with higher WIS for divine casters).
    Post edited by Curmudgeon on
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