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BG2:EE No more 9th lvl or HLA spells without 18 int

2

Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It's not a new feature; it's a feature that was there all along, it just wasn't working properly.

    elminsterJonelethIrenicus
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 715
    SionIV said:

    I think it's rather charming and a nice touch to the game that Edwin is a better mage than CHARNAME. Just because CHARNAME is a bhaalspawn doesn't mean that he should be better at arcane arts than Edwin. It's the same thing with Sarevok, he IS a bhaalspawn but he is still much more powerful than any fighter you could make yourself.

    Let Edwin have his small treats, he is evil and has a quite annoying personality so it's not like everyone and their mother use him to start with. Why can't the few evil NPC's we have get a little bonus? I would go as far as saying to balance Baldur's Gate would ruin the whole gaming experience.

    Take Garrick for an example, he's not a very good NPC's but it's kind of realistic that way. He is a bard that wanders the streets, he isn't supposed to be as powerful as a bounty hunter or a harper. It was a breath of fresh air to have Garrick back in BG1.

    I much rather have Garrick, Montaron, Safana, Quayle and Faldorn in my party instead of some Neera, Dorn and Rasaad if they were made to perfection with balance in mind and Neera could pull of a Edwina, Dorn could smack Keldorn around etc.

    Give me back bad NPC's you can learn to love for their personality, and the fact that they are utter shit. I have a big spot in my heart for Garrick just because he tried. He's like the half blind labrador puppy that keeps falling over it's own legs. It's not the most useful party member, but damn if you don't love it to bits.

    Nothing says that you can't have NPCs that are both balanced and loved for their personnality. What they did with BG2 was great, actually.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Aranthys said:

    SionIV said:

    I think it's rather charming and a nice touch to the game that Edwin is a better mage than CHARNAME. Just because CHARNAME is a bhaalspawn doesn't mean that he should be better at arcane arts than Edwin. It's the same thing with Sarevok, he IS a bhaalspawn but he is still much more powerful than any fighter you could make yourself.

    Let Edwin have his small treats, he is evil and has a quite annoying personality so it's not like everyone and their mother use him to start with. Why can't the few evil NPC's we have get a little bonus? I would go as far as saying to balance Baldur's Gate would ruin the whole gaming experience.

    Take Garrick for an example, he's not a very good NPC's but it's kind of realistic that way. He is a bard that wanders the streets, he isn't supposed to be as powerful as a bounty hunter or a harper. It was a breath of fresh air to have Garrick back in BG1.

    I much rather have Garrick, Montaron, Safana, Quayle and Faldorn in my party instead of some Neera, Dorn and Rasaad if they were made to perfection with balance in mind and Neera could pull of a Edwina, Dorn could smack Keldorn around etc.

    Give me back bad NPC's you can learn to love for their personality, and the fact that they are utter shit. I have a big spot in my heart for Garrick just because he tried. He's like the half blind labrador puppy that keeps falling over it's own legs. It's not the most useful party member, but damn if you don't love it to bits.

    Nothing says that you can't have NPCs that are both balanced and loved for their personnality. What they did with BG2 was great, actually.
    Yes but balance isn't always a good thing. It's much more realistic and enjoyable not to mention it's better for the story that there are some weak NPC's and some strong. And if they will end up trying to balance Neera with Edwin is quite silly. You have a wild mage and then a red wizard of thay, they aren't supposed to be on the same scale.

    DragonspearQuartzgrisbossk
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Well regardless, let's keep our fingers crossed that there are a couple of new items with bonus INT on them. Even with potions of genius being fairly easy to get hold of I always perfer a more permanent solution.

  • etaglocetagloc Member Posts: 349
    edited October 2013
    I think its fine.. remember this is first of all an RPG. It has never been about min or maxing, about balance or what it fair or unfair. (unless you can't beat the game) it is a single player game not world of warcraft, or some other multiplayer game.

    if you think its unfair, just fix it with a mod. relax enjoy the game

    you will beat the game with 8'th lv spell.

    atcDaveDragonspear
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Well, one can always just shadowkeeper the NPCs Int to 18 if nothing else...

    But I suppose it's a good change for those who keep wanting the game to be 100% PnP accurate

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    well if they want PnP accurate at 100% this little int nerf is like the last thing that should be changed

    i think edwin is not better than charname mage

    how many dual/multi classes are better than pure specialist mage?

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    zur312 said:

    well if they want PnP accurate at 100% this little int nerf is like the last thing that should be changed

    i think edwin is not better than charname mage

    how many dual/multi classes are better than pure specialist mage?

    Multi / dual -> Pure class
    Edwin -> Multi / Dual

    Those free spells of his, he is exactly that good.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    SionIV said:

    I think it's rather charming and a nice touch to the game that Edwin is a better mage than CHARNAME. Just because CHARNAME is a bhaalspawn doesn't mean that he should be better at arcane arts than Edwin. It's the same thing with Sarevok, he IS a bhaalspawn but he is still much more powerful than any fighter you could make yourself.

    Let Edwin have his small treats, he is evil and has a quite annoying personality so it's not like everyone and their mother use him to start with. Why can't the few evil NPC's we have get a little bonus? I would go as far as saying to balance Baldur's Gate would ruin the whole gaming experience.

    Take Garrick for an example, he's not a very good NPC's but it's kind of realistic that way. He is a bard that wanders the streets, he isn't supposed to be as powerful as a bounty hunter or a harper. It was a breath of fresh air to have Garrick back in BG1.

    I much rather have Garrick, Montaron, Safana, Quayle and Faldorn in my party instead of some Neera, Dorn and Rasaad if they were made to perfection with balance in mind and Neera could pull of a Edwina, Dorn could smack Keldorn around etc.

    Give me back bad NPC's you can learn to love for their personality, and the fact that they are utter shit. I have a big spot in my heart for Garrick just because he tried. He's like the half blind labrador puppy that keeps falling over it's own legs. It's not the most useful party member, but damn if you don't love it to bits.

    I don't know if I like the implication that Safana is "utter shit."

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,009
    Mages have never been able to learn 9th-level spells without an 18 intelligence. Just use potions of genius or the book that gives a permanent bonus to intelligence (tome of clear thought, I think is its name).

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207

    Mages have never been able to learn 9th-level spells without an 18 intelligence. Just use potions of genius or the book that gives a permanent bonus to intelligence (tome of clear thought, I think is its name).

    In BG2 Mages were able to learn 9th level spells without 18 intelligence.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567

    I don't know if I like the implication that Safana is "utter shit."

    I like Safana for being the one easily accessible thief that has her skill points in mostly the right places if I pick her up at a higher level.

  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Kaigen said:

    I don't know if I like the implication that Safana is "utter shit."

    I like Safana for being the one easily accessible thief that has her skill points in mostly the right places if I pick her up at a higher level.

    Yup. Her personality and her voice set and her portrait have nothing to do with it. Honest! ;)

    Quartz
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    zur312 said:

    well if they want PnP accurate at 100% this little int nerf is like the last thing that should be changed

    I was under the impression that PnP had rules for spells requiring a certain amount of int or wis...

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686

    SionIV said:

    I think it's rather charming and a nice touch to the game that Edwin is a better mage than CHARNAME. Just because CHARNAME is a bhaalspawn doesn't mean that he should be better at arcane arts than Edwin. It's the same thing with Sarevok, he IS a bhaalspawn but he is still much more powerful than any fighter you could make yourself.

    Let Edwin have his small treats, he is evil and has a quite annoying personality so it's not like everyone and their mother use him to start with. Why can't the few evil NPC's we have get a little bonus? I would go as far as saying to balance Baldur's Gate would ruin the whole gaming experience.

    Take Garrick for an example, he's not a very good NPC's but it's kind of realistic that way. He is a bard that wanders the streets, he isn't supposed to be as powerful as a bounty hunter or a harper. It was a breath of fresh air to have Garrick back in BG1.

    I much rather have Garrick, Montaron, Safana, Quayle and Faldorn in my party instead of some Neera, Dorn and Rasaad if they were made to perfection with balance in mind and Neera could pull of a Edwina, Dorn could smack Keldorn around etc.

    Give me back bad NPC's you can learn to love for their personality, and the fact that they are utter shit. I have a big spot in my heart for Garrick just because he tried. He's like the half blind labrador puppy that keeps falling over it's own legs. It's not the most useful party member, but damn if you don't love it to bits.

    I don't know if I like the implication that Safana is "utter shit."
    I wouldn't say that Safana is utter shit, as she is really good for a thief and you can get her early. But there are some other NPC's that were mentioned that just kind of fall of the wagon. You can complete the game with any of the NPC's but there are some that were less blessed than others. Safana is a mediocre NPC that can do the the thief business but falls short on anything else.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    How did we go from a topic about the fixing of how intelligence works to discussing Safana?

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    She's a thief and this is what they do, sneaking into threads.

    etaglocDragonspearElrandir
  • Dalis918Dalis918 Member Posts: 37
    Personally speaking I never saw the reason why mages didn't get some form of spell memorization bonus from a high intelligence. I mean you could use the excuse that priest classes get the benefit because mages have two extra spell levels, but then mages don't get to wear armour or slightly less hitpoints than warriors or a better thac0 than Thieves. And if you go into the argument of "oh but you can get 5 level 8 and 9 spells!" then I counter this, it's only 10 extra spells. Very powerful spells mind you, but priest spells scale a bit quicker in some respects and pfft, wow 10 spells. A priest with a decent wisdom score gets those easily over their range of spells.

  • FrkunFrkun Member Posts: 51
    This still balances nothing, since you can always have a genius potion in your inventory.
    If it's necessary to balance intelligence stat it should, as well as it happens with strenght, increase the output damage of the magic spells.

    As well as making the wisdom to give penalties to the roll savings and give bonuses to the own savings. Charisma should be improved by giving more role playing options, so if you really want a lot of dialogs, solutions and quests you sacrifice combat power for higher charisma.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Quartz said:

    Palanthis said:

    I think the real question with Edwin is balancing him with Charname. There is no way a mage Charname can compete with him, no matter we try (especially in BG2).

    But unfortunately, even though i think a lot of players feel, like i do, that he's really overcheated (more than any other NPC actually), the devs can't change him because of their contract (or so i think).

    The attitude that "my PC should be able to do ANYTHING an NPC can do" is so painful and obnoxious.
    Agree so damn much.

    Quartz
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    IkMarc said:

    I wish height of intelligence would actually influence spell damage/duration/saving throws etc., that would be awesome..


    It might seem awesome, but as proven in later editions of DnD games, this implementation turned out to be poor.

    In Dungeons and Dragons online, wizards with maxed out Intelligence, spell focuses and archmage specialization are still useless at bypassing end game enemy resistances and saves, and sorcerers specced purely in damage spells far outclassed them for end game viable casters. Then that was mostly due to shitty MMO balancing reasons (OMG Wizards are soloing everything with mass hold and wail of the banshee, lets add 1 minute long cooldowns to those spells, they still work too well, lets make enemies with impossible saving throws).

    I hated how useless they made DC wizard builds with all the nerfs.

    elminstersunset00
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited November 2013
    So using Potions of Genius to learn write spells still bypasses the spells per level intelligence limit. This seems rather unrealistic and cheesy to me, so I have manually removed spells to stay within my characters' natural limits, for example 11 spells per level for Aerie.

    But I do wonder, how is it supposed to work in AD&D PnP 2nd Edition?

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    In PnP you must have 18 int to scribe, memorize, or cast level 9 spells. I think.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    SionIV said:

    zur312 said:

    well if they want PnP accurate at 100% this little int nerf is like the last thing that should be changed

    i think edwin is not better than charname mage

    how many dual/multi classes are better than pure specialist mage?

    Multi / dual -> Pure class
    Edwin -> Multi / Dual

    Those free spells of his, he is exactly that good.
    And any sorcerer >> Edwin. Baeloth mops the floor with Edwin.

    Baldur's Gate has never been about balance, and that is the way it should be.

    HeindrichDragonspear
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Palanthis said:

    I think the real question with Edwin is balancing him with Charname. There is no way a mage Charname can compete with him, no matter we try (especially in BG2).

    But unfortunately, even though i think a lot of players feel, like i do, that he's really overcheated (more than any other NPC actually), the devs can't change him because of their contract (or so i think).

    Hint - Charname should never be a pure mage. If you want to be better than Edwin, then make a kensai / mage.

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