Fighter v. Mage gladiator fight
XerxesV
Member Posts: 187
In a one-on-one battle, what level would a Mage have to be to defeat a fighter of equal level?
It sounds like a simple question, but I thought of a few ground rules to clarify:
-no kits or specializations, just true class
- magic items change everything because of all the possible combinations. Let's limit both characters to non-magic armor and weapons, and deny the Mage the use of 'protection' or 'mantle' spells which prevent damage from weapon types. Also, no bonus items that decrease casting times or give resistances.
-also, no scrolls, potions, or single use items. This limits the Mage to level-appropriate spell usage.
-no familiars to take hits, but other summoning spells are okay.
-no ranged weapons for the fighter. Sorry. I think ranged weapons would restrict the Mage to random chance in getting any spells cast at all. (not that save v. spell isn't random).
-the Mage gets one round before the fighter closes in melee to cast the first spell. It seems a little unfair, but most game encounters give you this much time anyway.
-both are human (gets rid of racial immunities to spells).
In these circumstances, what level would you have to be as a Mage to defeat a fighter (speaking generally)?
What combination of spells would it take to win?
I think it's an interesting question because mages take forever to become self-sufficient, and as fighters level up they become nearly impossible to kill in a 1 on 1 fight. it really comes down to strategy and good spell use. The only time you get anything resembling this in BG is in TOB when the drow challenges CHARNAME to single combat. Even then you're so buffed with items it's not a fair fight.
(Edit: in writing this I thought of a few cheesy spells that can basically end this fight early, but I'm posting it anyway. I want to hear what you think).
It sounds like a simple question, but I thought of a few ground rules to clarify:
-no kits or specializations, just true class
- magic items change everything because of all the possible combinations. Let's limit both characters to non-magic armor and weapons, and deny the Mage the use of 'protection' or 'mantle' spells which prevent damage from weapon types. Also, no bonus items that decrease casting times or give resistances.
-also, no scrolls, potions, or single use items. This limits the Mage to level-appropriate spell usage.
-no familiars to take hits, but other summoning spells are okay.
-no ranged weapons for the fighter. Sorry. I think ranged weapons would restrict the Mage to random chance in getting any spells cast at all. (not that save v. spell isn't random).
-the Mage gets one round before the fighter closes in melee to cast the first spell. It seems a little unfair, but most game encounters give you this much time anyway.
-both are human (gets rid of racial immunities to spells).
In these circumstances, what level would you have to be as a Mage to defeat a fighter (speaking generally)?
What combination of spells would it take to win?
I think it's an interesting question because mages take forever to become self-sufficient, and as fighters level up they become nearly impossible to kill in a 1 on 1 fight. it really comes down to strategy and good spell use. The only time you get anything resembling this in BG is in TOB when the drow challenges CHARNAME to single combat. Even then you're so buffed with items it's not a fair fight.
(Edit: in writing this I thought of a few cheesy spells that can basically end this fight early, but I'm posting it anyway. I want to hear what you think).
1
Comments
When the mage hits level 7 he'll win the fight. Polymorph self and a couple of buffs in a sequencer and it's over.
1.) Minor sequencer with blur + mirror image
2.) Throw stoneskin on yourself
3.) Polymorph to sword spider
4.) Start eating up the fighter
[Edited] : You can also open up with a slow on the fighter, to make it even more painful to watch.
i get it who would win
mage with everything vs fighter stats 3/3/3/3/3/3 without items
Sleep is instant death for a lvl 4 or under fighter due to that ridiculous -3 penalty. Spook is useful vs very high level warriors because of it's growing save penalty and gives you several rounds to buff/debuff. Blind is crippling vs middle level warriors, you get to watch them flail around looking for you helpless. And that's just first level spells.
Once they're sleeping, blinded, or spooked, it's simply a matter of deciding how they die and how big of a douche you wanna be pulling it off.
Fighters suffer major diminishing returns as they level, especially after 10, since their effectiveness is based solely around their gear.
So it's really all down to whether the fighter can make his first saving throw or not. But the odds don't favor the fighter.
They start with 7 in spell ST.
A mage will always win in a battle with a fighter.
I take it this topic is a time killer ?
At higher levels the difference between them increases greatly. Only with cheese ( 100 % MR ) does a fighter stand a chance at higher levels. Even then it's a slow death.
Elves are immune to sleep and berserk will grant him more damage, Thac0, 15 more health and immune to some other things aswell.
The mage could blind him, but it would be hard to bring down 28 health from a blinded berserker with a splint mail.
And in addition to removing his visual sphere, it worsens thac0 and AC by 4, halving the armor's bonus completely. And depending on strength score, the mage will be equal or better thac0. And once they're winded, their AC is 2 lower, meaning they're effectively wearing leather.
Also... Minsc would like a bigger sword...
Sleep is the fireball spell of lvl 1.
Ban sleep. And fighter most likely wins.
They would both lose to a thief or a cleric.
At lvl 1 to 4 mage can win easily with sleep spell. Fighter can save but it is unlikely.
At mid levels mage should go invisible before the fighter reaches to melee him, then he buffs with shield+mirror image+blur+stoneskin etc. to reduce his chances of getting hit. Breaks invisibility with a horror. While the fighter runs off scared, summons some monsters, tries a hold person, and melf's arrow/magic missiles the fighter to death. That's how I would play in this gladiator scenario anyway.
Fighter can win, but it requires a lot of luck in these rules. If the fighter has a ranged weapon and can disrupt the mage's first spell, then mage is toast.
He's going to wake up as soon as he takes damage. At D10 hit points he has enough hit points to absorb whatever one attack a level 1 mage is going to do. A dagger? 1d4 big deal and a mage's thaco is terrible as well is he even going to hit? One magic missle at level 1? Woo scary. Get over your level 1 sleep spell FTW guys
Elven Berserker, in splint (-1 vs pierce included below, -2 vs blunt), with 18/00 str, 19 dex, 17 con. With 2hd-sword (**).
Normal - -1 AC, 15 thac0, 13 hp.
Normal (Blinded) 3 AC, 19 Thac0, 13 hp.
Enrage = -3 AC, 13 thac0, 28 hp.
Enrage (blinded) = 1 AC, 17 thac0, 28 HP.
Winded = 1 AC, 17 thaco, 13 HP.
Winded (blinded) = 5 AC, 21 thac0, 13 HP.
Human Mage, 18 str, dex, 16 con. With dagger and knave's robe (-1 vs slashing included below)
Normal = 5 AC, 19 thac0, 6 HP.
A staff would be safer, since they could never click on you due to the range, and potentially deal more damage, but slightly less likely to hit.
Thus, the mage is more likely to hit, and has the added advantage of the enemy not able to know where the attack is going to come from, giving them time to move out of range after a strike.
A lvl 1 Berserker only has a 10% chance of saving vs Blind.
List of first level spells: (Ctrl-C Ctrl-V from Mike's RPG Center)
Armor ,Blindness, Burning Hands ,Charm Person ,Chill Touch ,Chromatic Orb ,Color Spray ,Detect Evil, Friends, Grease, Identify , Infravision , Larloch's Minor Drain , Magic Missile, Protection From Evil , Shield , Shocking Grasp , Sleep
Character Lvl 1-2: Say you cast Sleep. OK, your next spell needs to be able to do 10-15 damage to reliably take out the fighter. That's not in the works up there, so you need a second shut-down. Which means you need at least 3 (5 preferred) spell slots. Hm... No guarantee. Maybe Color Spray would work better...
List of 2nd level spells:
Agannazar's Scorcher , Blur , Detect Invisibility, Ghoul Touch, Horror , Invisibility , Knock , Know Alignment , Luck, Melf's Acid Arrow , Mirror Image , Protection From Petrification , Resist Fear, Stinking Cloud , Strength , Vocalize, Web
Now we're talking. Although the damage the mage needs to deal is on the order of 30 now, the mage has many reliable means of shutting down the fighter for a much longer time.
Let's assume a 5/3 slot number for the mage. Specializations being banned, this mage would probably need to be 4th level. This puts the fighter at around 35 HP, right? Mage's power is in preparation, so let's have him/her prepared for a solo brute fight.
1: Blindness, sleep, damage, damage, damage
2: Mirror Image, damage, damage or Horror, Mirror Image, damage or ...
This fight looks like it would go the mage's way. If not, the mage has at least enough shutdown power to make his/her escape.
Round 1: mirror Image, gives several rounds of free casting.
Round 2: Sleep/Horror (If there's a good chance in both cases that the target will fail his/her save, then go for horror first. If it goes off, no need for sleep.)
round 3: Horror/sleep, or if the target failed save vs fear before, then open up with your damage.
Still, a few unlucky rolls and the wizard's out of spells, looking at a very hurt yet very angry fighter.