Stealth question

Sacklar

does the hide in shadows work with the walk silent ability for going stealth or is the walk silent ability just somthing that is usless?

Corvino

As currently implemented Move Silently is better in all circumstances. For initially hiding the check uses an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently scores. For repeat checks every round to see if you stay stealthed, Move Silently alone is checked. So a high Move Silently score will actually help you hide and stay hidden.

TJ_Hooker

I don't know if what @Corvino said has ever been confirmed (although I do remember reading something similar). Another theory is that the game takes the average of the 2 abilities and uses that as your overall 'stealth' score, which is then used for both initiating and maintaining stealth. So having 150 in one and 50 in the other is the same as having 100 in both.

Basillicum

It mostly seems that the initial check is based on an average of Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, like @Corvino and @TJ_Hooker says.

TJ_Hooker said:

So having 150 in one and 50 in the other is the same as having 100 in both.

I'm currently playing a Shadowdancer with 120 MS and 55 HiS (including equipment). The initial check to stealth succeeds about 75+% of the time, depending on the environment, and staying hidden almost always succeeds. I should mention that I haven't tested this very thoroughly; I'm just stating what my general experience is so far.

Sacklar

so what u guys r saying is that most of my points should be going to ms then to his??? CRAP
being donit he opposite

Corvino

There was a thread a couple of months ago with pretty thorough testing, and it seemed to confirm wait I wrote. It should still show up on the forum search my phone won't let me do.

Honestly, I usually just keep the two about equal while levelling them though.

Basillicum

@Corvino - This thread, maybe?

If you're focusing 100% on stealth anyway and all checks are based on an average value between the two skills, it doesn't matter how you distribute them at all.

fighter_mage_thief

Corvino said:

As currently implemented Move Silently is better in all circumstances. For initially hiding the check uses an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently scores. For repeat checks every round to see if you stay stealthed, Move Silently alone is checked. So a high Move Silently score will actually help you hide and stay hidden.

I just confirmed this with the original BG SoA. I created a character with 5 Hide in Shadows and 225 Move Silently. On average I have a hide failure about 1/10th of the time, which is kind of shocking.

I realized the Stealth skill for Rangers was a combination of the two, but I never knew that you didn't actually need to put any points into Hide. It actually seems kind of weird lol...

TJ_Hooker

fighter_mage_thief said:

Corvino said:

As currently implemented Move Silently is better in all circumstances. For initially hiding the check uses an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently scores. For repeat checks every round to see if you stay stealthed, Move Silently alone is checked. So a high Move Silently score will actually help you hide and stay hidden.

I just confirmed this with the original BG SoA. I created a character with 5 Hide in Shadows and 225 Move Silently. On average I have a hide failure about 1/10th of the time, which is kind of shocking.

I realized the Stealth skill for Rangers was a combination of the two, but I never knew that you didn't actually need to put any points into Hide. It actually seems kind of weird lol...

That doesn't really confirm anything though. Whether the game uses an average of the skills to initiate stealth and only Move Silently to maintain stealth, or uses the average for both initiating and maintaining stealth, you'd expect to see the results you got.

A better test would be to have 5 in Move Silently and 225 in Hide in Shadows. If what Corvino said above is true, you'd be able to almost always succeed in initiating stealth, but almost always fail in maintaining it. If what I said above is true, you'd expect to succeed in both initiating and maintaining stealth nearly all the time.

Basillicum

According to Dee in another thread an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently is used when initially trying to hide, while all checks to maintain stealth afterwards are based on Move Silently alone.

What that means is that you should put all your points in Move Silently.

EDIT: grammar

fighter_mage_thief

TJ_Hooker said:

fighter_mage_thief said:

Corvino said:

As currently implemented Move Silently is better in all circumstances. For initially hiding the check uses an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently scores. For repeat checks every round to see if you stay stealthed, Move Silently alone is checked. So a high Move Silently score will actually help you hide and stay hidden.

I just confirmed this with the original BG SoA. I created a character with 5 Hide in Shadows and 225 Move Silently. On average I have a hide failure about 1/10th of the time, which is kind of shocking.

I realized the Stealth skill for Rangers was a combination of the two, but I never knew that you didn't actually need to put any points into Hide. It actually seems kind of weird lol...

That doesn't really confirm anything though. Whether the game uses an average of the skills to initiate stealth and only Move Silently to maintain stealth, or uses the average for both initiating and maintaining stealth, you'd expect to see the results you got.

A better test would be to have 5 in Move Silently and 225 in Hide in Shadows. If what Corvino said above is true, you'd be able to almost always succeed in initiating stealth, but almost always fail in maintaining it. If what I said above is true, you'd expect to succeed in both initiating and maintaining stealth nearly all the time.

Technically, what I proved is that you don't need to put any points into Hide in Shadows in order to have a high success rate (90+ %) for Hide in Shadows, which was funny to me.

But anyways, upon creating a character with 220 Hide in Shadows and 5 Move Silently, it basically feels like the same results, as if the initial and continued Hide checks are based off an average of the two, to the extent that you only really need to pump one skill, unless you're going for a very high overall Stealth value.

ZanathKariashi

It does kind of make sense though. In PnP hide has NOTHING to do with stealth, as BG would term it. You can't move while hiding. Move silently on the other hand is all about stealthily moving around the while being unnoticed.

Qbert

I've seen the MS/HIS analysis posted by @Corvino in several threads but in this thread Dee seems to refute it after talking to the Devs.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/369891#Comment_369891

[Deleted User]

So I just rolled up a Human Thief with 9 Dex giving me an MS score of 0 (actually -10, but the game floors it at 0). CLUA'd myself up to level 10 and dumped all my skill points into Hide in Shadows (with a few spare ones going into Set Traps once HiS was maxed). Went into the Candlekeep Inn, stealthed, and started wandering around constantly. Went 5 rounds without coming out of stealth and I'm still idling in stealth as I type this (12 rounds total as of now). If I can stay stealthed with 0 MS and 245 HiS, I think it's pretty safe to say that it doesn't matter which one you invest your points in; they get averaged for every stealth calculation.

Edit: Left the game idling in the background while working on other things. The character maintained stealth for 49 rounds before finally failing a stealth check (probably a critical failure roll).

nano

I guess it's to prevent rogues from getting perfect stealth too early? If you put the boots of stealth on a ranger it raises their stealth by the average of the values which seems to support the "average" theory.

Wilbur

So in the end it should not make any difference if you invest all the points to either of the skills or 50/50 or anything in between.

Anduin

If you put equally in both... At least you will know your average without having to do the maths... A very insightful thread...

Lifat

Well...
One camp is saying that it is the average of the two scores used for both initiating and maintaining stealth, pointing to different evidence and pseudo dev posts...
One camp is saying that average is used to initiate while MS is used for maintaining..
As far as I've seen noone is claiming that HiS is used for maintaining.

Doesn't that suggest that the smart player should put his/her points in MS alone? Even if you think the first camp is right you don't risk the others being right and your character being weaker for it.

As far as personal experience goes I'd say that from what I've seen it is an average used for both but I'd definitely put points into MS from now on :P

[Deleted User]

Lifat said:

One camp is saying that it is the average of the two scores used for both initiating and maintaining stealth, pointing to different evidence and pseudo dev posts...
One camp is saying that average is used to initiate while MS is used for maintaining..
As far as I've seen noone is claiming that HiS is used for maintaining.

If the average is used for maintaining, then HiS is used for maintaining.

I'm with @Anduin. Keeping them even makes it easier to determine your chances at a glance. A point in MS is exactly as effective as a point in HiS, so you might as well distribute them in whatever way seems more convenient to you.

Dee

Basillicum said:

According to Dee in another thread an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently is used when initially trying to hide, while all checks to maintain stealth afterwards are based on Move Silently alone.

What that means is that you should put all your points in Move Silently.

EDIT: grammar

Full disclosure--I was going from memory when I said that. We've since looked at the actual code, and it always averages the two together.

Basillicum

@Dee Does the same code answer what the exact penalty for trying to stealth in daylight is? And is there any penalty still when trying to hide in an actual shadow during daytime? Would be neat to know which penalties (and bonuses, if any) to consider in different situations.

I think @elminster asked somewhere else which file governs this.

Dee

It probably would, but it wasn't something we looked at when we were looking at it.

The code is a bit like the La Brea Tar Pits. When you go in, expect things to be sticky.

I've got some other questions about Stealth, though, and when there's time to actually examine the code that's one of the questions I'll add to my list. I do know that standing in shadows (that is, any time your character's sprite appears darker) grants a bonus, and standing outside in daylight without the aid of shadows bestows a penalty; but that's just from running around as a shadowdancer today trying to escape from a pack of dire wolves. (Word to the wise: do not engage dire wolves at level 1 in the middle of the day if your biggest strength is the ability to hide in shadows.)