Spell immunity tweaks
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
I'm not particularly fond of this spell as implemented.
Several reasons, 1. It's FAR too powerful as implemented 2. It's clearly based on the cleric version of spell immunity rather then the mage version and clerics are lacking one of their few anti-magic spells as a result 3. It in no way resembles the mage version of spell immunity.
three options.
1. Leave it as is, except it only affects spells up to 5th level. No blanket immunity spell should ever affect spells higher then itself, unless it only has a single charge and/or only affects a handful of specific spells. (Globe of Invulnerability is also 5th level and blocks all spells up to 4th. So blocking spells of a single school would allow it to block spells up to it's level, but no higher. If it only had a single charge, then yes, I might see it fair to affect any level spell of a school.
2. Give that version spell immunity to clerics, like it's supposed to be. Blocks all spells of the chosen school up to 4th level (effectively a cleric version of Globe of Invulnerability, but only applies to a single school, in keeping with Divine's lesser ability to counter magic as effectively as Arcane can). Give mages Serten's Spell Immunity, 8th level, +10 to all saves vs magical effects, 1 round per level.
3. Take the PfM route. Instantly removes those spells currently in effect, prevents casting of those spells, and prevents being affected by spells of the chosen school.
Several reasons, 1. It's FAR too powerful as implemented 2. It's clearly based on the cleric version of spell immunity rather then the mage version and clerics are lacking one of their few anti-magic spells as a result 3. It in no way resembles the mage version of spell immunity.
three options.
1. Leave it as is, except it only affects spells up to 5th level. No blanket immunity spell should ever affect spells higher then itself, unless it only has a single charge and/or only affects a handful of specific spells. (Globe of Invulnerability is also 5th level and blocks all spells up to 4th. So blocking spells of a single school would allow it to block spells up to it's level, but no higher. If it only had a single charge, then yes, I might see it fair to affect any level spell of a school.
2. Give that version spell immunity to clerics, like it's supposed to be. Blocks all spells of the chosen school up to 4th level (effectively a cleric version of Globe of Invulnerability, but only applies to a single school, in keeping with Divine's lesser ability to counter magic as effectively as Arcane can). Give mages Serten's Spell Immunity, 8th level, +10 to all saves vs magical effects, 1 round per level.
3. Take the PfM route. Instantly removes those spells currently in effect, prevents casting of those spells, and prevents being affected by spells of the chosen school.
Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
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2.) If you go with #1 and make it only up to 5th level no one would use it anymore. Major globe would take up to 4th level and there are no level 5 spells worth protecting yourself from.
3.) It would make most hardcore players that enjoy SCS and playing arcane casters solo move back to BG2 and ignore BGEE.
4.) Spell Immunity is the most important and useful spell in the entire game for mages, and changing or removing it would kill what makes the mage so fun to play.
Spell Immunity as implemented should be a HLA, if anything. It's FAR too powerful to be even a 9th level spell as it currently is.
And no...spell immunity is not currently or ever required, even with mods.
I already implemented option 2 in my own game a long time ago, and haven't missed it.
Spell Immunity is a wonderful spell and one of the only spell in BG2 that actually require thinking.
Spell Immunitys power goes with how difficult your game is. You don't even need the spell for the original BG2 while it starts to shine when you play with SCS.
[Edited] :
Nerfing Spell Immunity would be the same as removing the option to fully refresh your spells with Wish, or only letting you use it once every day. It will have absolutely no effect on the 'normal' BG players while it will crush some of the most efficient tactics used in SCS / tactics.
Yeah.....removing wish-resting is another thing on the to-do list. Of course nearly everything ToB added is in dire need of nerfs/tweaks/rebalances...so that's on the back-burner for now.
I would love to play it but if they start going on a holy war to make it true to PnP and to change everything that with clever use will let you get through fights, i'll stick with the original BG2.
1.) You got Shadow door on you, if you use Spell Immunity Divination then they won't be able to find you. Not to mention it will protect things like your mislead clone.
2.) AoE spells that would be a danger to use normally, you can make yourself immune to them and then fire off a spell trigger to kill everything around you.
3.) You can make yourself immune to dispel magic and other protection removing spells.
There are endless combinations to use with this spell, and it's by far the most game changing spell in BG2.
Pretty much anything that will cast Horrid Wilting for example, can also cast sunfire, or hold, or fireball, or lightening...why bother protecting myself against just *one* of these, when I could be dealing damage instead?
Dispel Magic - Abjuration
Breach - Abjuration
Pierce Magic - Abjuration
Pierce Shield - Abjuration
See where i'm going with this? The enemy mages won't be able to strip you of your protection spells.
The only way to bring down your protection spells would be Prismatic Spray, and how many mages in BG2 use that?
No spell protection can ever fully block dispel magic. The dispel always gets a chance to remove any protection, and if it succeeds, it can attempt to remove other effects. Even Spell trap and globes are not exempt and can be removed if they fail their dispel check...but will absorb or block the spell as normal if they survive.
Why bother even casting protections at all when Spell Immunity removes any need for them to exist.
It might make more sense if it was like PfM, and removed all current spells, prevent casting of spells, and prevented being affected by spells of the chosen school....but at current Spell immunity has no downside and gives blanket immunity to spells higher level then itself...which means it's broken.
Of course broken spells are popular, they're blatant cheating, and cheating is always popular.
I don't know which version you guys are playing, but my mage would be stripped in a few second flat and dead before i could blink when i fight an adventure party like the one in Temple district (Celestial fury) without having spell immunity.
Rogue wanting to backstab you for 80-100 damage? Check.
Two huge ogrons that got insane Thaco and hit for 20-30 damage a hit? Check.
A kensai with celestial fury that can also stun you? Check.
A cleric that can cast level 7 spells? Check.
A mage that will throw breach and do everything to remove your protection? Check.
What is that? Shadow door? Oh no you're not when the cleric got true sight. You don't got Spell Immunity Divination and Abjuration up? Sorry you're dead.
You can't even summon anything in this fight as when you go upstairs it starts.
Clearly a noob, since otherwise you'd know there's tons of options for dealing with that situation, several of which don't even require a spellcaster to pull off.
And it still doesn't change the fact that SCS is a horrible mod to begin with...not improved anvil horrible, but still refuses fix broken mechanics where it can to make the game more legitimately challenging and instead uses pure cheese to make up for it.
As far as I'm concerned, those mods don't exist. The only mod that I even consider even the slightest bit is Ascension, and I'm not even going to consider it that for my suggestions. My suggestion are based entirely around improving the base game, if that means nerfing something broken but extremely popular (like all beneficial broken $%#^ is) so be it.
This is not the first time that I've spoken to you about this.
Arguably SI:Abjuration is fairly broken as it does provide blanket immunity to nearly all spell protection removals apart from Ruby Ray, which in turn prevents you from having combat protections removed. You shouldn't really be able to make yourself invulnerable for the duration of a spell, regardless of the mods you use. If Dispel Magic were changed to ignore Spell Immunity then it would be less overpowered, just as making Dispel Magic affect Liches would be a welcome change.
And why do people constantly say tactics are cheesy?
1.) You got a shadow door spell that makes it so that people can't see you, except if they use true sight.
2.) You got a protection spell that can prevent true sight from reaching you.
3.) You get the two working very efficiently.
This has absolutely nothing to do about cheese, it's about clever use of your spells.
Throwing 3 cloudkills into a room and Shutting the door -> Cheesy
Using SI:Abjuration to blanket cover your stoneskin and PMFW and protect it from the enemy mages breach, so you don't get butchered by the golems? -> Clever gameplay
As i have mentioned before, it's like Guild wars.
1.) You have 600 health
2.) You can get through items and runes your health down to 55
3.) You have a spell that makes it so that you only take 10% damage a hit.
4.) You have a protection spell that removes the first 8 damage of every hit.
5.) 10% - 55 health = 5.5 damage taken, protection spell removes 8 damage.
So now you're almost impossible to kill, except that enemies can strip your enchants.
6.) Find out the most efficient spell with the longest duration to make yourself immune to spells, so you can blanket cover your shield buff and 10% buff.
7.) Try to fill the last slots in your build with some damage.
It's people that figure out smart and clever ways to use spells, there is absolutely nothing cheesy about it.
But I don't think that any of the changes should be part of the base BG2:EE game - while spell immunity may be cheesy, it has become part of BG2.
From a gameplay perspective (taking SCS into account), spell immunity is the only thing standing between an Inquisitor and a deal spellcaster. So if it gets taken away then all spellcasters would become far too easy to kill for those who like the SCS additional challenge.
To be honest people are going Iron Anvil over this game nowadays. Instead of trying to balance it they are completely removing certain parts of the game.
The spell should've never been given to mages in the first place, is my primary gripe. This version of spell immunity is supposed to be a cleric spell, and much weaker then implemented.
The real fix would be making Non-detection work properly. The spell is literally useless because all the spells it's supposed to protect against remove it or outright ignore it. And even the cloak of non-detection that actually works doesn't protect actual spells, only illusion spells generated by items. And then stuff like Project Image and Simulacrum isn't supposed to be affected by detect illusion or true-sight period, since they're technically real, the detection spell simply reveals they aren't what they appear to be, and can only be removed by dispel magic for PI, or by killing it for simulacrum.
And keep in mind, the Inquisitor's dispel is also grossly overpowered. It's ONLY supposed to have a base 100% chance (casts as if 5 levels higher), but it has a base 100% chance AND double caster level, making it significantly stronger then it ever should've been.
ALso dispel magic, by design, is supposed to be the ultimate remover. It's supposed to work on any and everything, unless it fails to dispel a protection in which case the protection then performs as intended. Even spell trap and Globes are supposed to be removed by dispel magic if it succeeds in a dispel check vs them.
And please...don't ever compare ACTUALLY balancing the game to Improved Anvil...it does what BG did, except even more imbalanced.
If SI:A functions just to help combat protections stay intact, that's one thing - there are MANY arcane options to take it out. (Anti-Breach, Dispel, Remove, Imprisonment) If it does that while stopping every spell protection remover except Ruby Ray... that's something else.
@velehal - sorry, where is the Spell Revision forum? I don't see it here.
Edit: As I remember, SI:Divination was actually the biggest cheese culprit in BG2. With a solo Mage/Sorcerer, it made pretty much every Lich battle almost trivial.
"This is broken"= "I don't like this"
"This is cheese"= "I don't like this"
So "SCS is a horrible mod because I don't like it". I can't really quibble with that, I guess.
Cheese = clearly unintended exploits of mechanics due to sloppy coding, again for no mechanical reason that the correct mechanics based on the source material can't be used.
And the fact it's a friggin CRPG completely removes the, "oh but it'll be more newbie friendly"...no it's not. The hard to understand stuff is still in (and even those are still irrelevant due to the computer handling everything), and that is a tired and repeatedly shown false excuse to try and defend mechanics that have no reason valid reason to exist.
If the newbie is completely illiterate and can't read descriptions in-game or the game's manual that adequately explains everything a newbie needs to know, then sure, maybe................but then they shouldn't even be playing a game as wordy as this.